FB: Empire 8

[boobyhasgameyo]

I don't think the rivalry was manufactured at all between Fisher and Ithaca.  I'm speaking more in terms of this board specifically by the way.  Since the genesis of this was discussing why the boards aren't as lively. 

For a 3-5 year stretch there it produced some of the most entertaining games i've seen.  Fisher was up and coming and Ithaca was already well established.  Not much respect was given initially (which is fine since it hadn't been earned).  But man did things start to heat up on the old post patterns once the games started to get really competitive.  The entire week leading up to the game would be filled with so much back and forth and sh*t talking.  With each team's fans secretly hoping they wouldn't have to eat crow i'd imagine.  They were the glory days and in my mind for a period it was quite an intense rivalry.  Look at the scores from that time period and you can see how momentum gathered. 

2000:  IC 42 - Fisher 14
2001:  IC 52 - Fisher 0
2002:  IC 30 - Fisher 20
2003:  IC 20 - Fisher 19
2004:  Fisher 45 - IC 38
2005:  IC 41 - Fisher 35
2006: Fisher 34 - IC 10
2007:  Fisher 37 - IC 16
2008:  Fisher 37 - IC 6
2009:  Fisher 40 - IC 17
2010:  Fisher 34 - IC 10
2011:  Fisher 13 - IC 10
2012:  Fisher 21 - IC 17
2013:  IC 25 - Fisher 22
2014:  IC 19 - Fisher 8
2015:  Fisher 34 - IC 0
2016:  Fisher 34 - IC 17
2017:  IC 35 - Fisher 10

It started out heavily in favor of Ithaca, then had that 4 year stretch of super close and incredibly fun games between some of the best teams the East had to offer.  The boards were bumping.  Then went heavily in favor of Fisher before going back and forth again. 

So yeah...personally i'll miss having Ithaca in the conference.  I know for a fact they were the first hurdle Coach Vos would talk about clearing if Fisher wanted to become a successful program.  They were the initial benchmark.  I'm glad they are still on the schedule for now at least. 

[pumkinattack]

Six single digit games.  And they already have a rival in kickball u. 

Fisher had a strong 8-10 years where another school would have to focus on them in order to compete.  But that's still different and these boards, even in their peak, when like now the LLPP is superior , but Alfred was as much a rival as IC.  There just too polite and it's hard to bust on a dope kazoo band. 

1pt game in 99
2pt game in 02
7pts game in 03
10pt game in 04
6pt game in 05
06-07 ugly
3pt game in 08
3pt game in 09
11pt game in 10 (>10 but seeing a pattern here)
7pt in 17
Few blowouts each way this decade but if were using scores this looks like more of a rivalry to me.

[AUPepBand]

Six single digit games.  And they already have a rival in kickball u. 

Fisher had a strong 8-10 years where another school would have to focus on them in order to compete.  But that's still different and these boards, even in their peak, when like now the LLPP is superior , but Alfred was as much a rival as IC.  There just too polite and it's hard to bust on a dope kazoo band. 

1pt game in 99
2pt game in 02
7pts game in 03
10pt game in 04
6pt game in 05
06-07 ugly
3pt game in 08
3pt game in 09
11pt game in 10 (>10 but seeing a pattern here)
7pt in 17
Few blowouts each way this decade but if were using scores this looks like more of a rivalry to me.

   Hey now.....Pep resembles that!!!!   

[Jonny Utah]

Six single digit games.  And they already have a rival in kickball u. 

Fisher had a strong 8-10 years where another school would have to focus on them in order to compete.  But that's still different and these boards, even in their peak, when like now the LLPP is superior , but Alfred was as much a rival as IC.  There just too polite and it's hard to bust on a dope kazoo band. 

1pt game in 99
2pt game in 02
7pts game in 03
10pt game in 04
6pt game in 05
06-07 ugly
3pt game in 08
3pt game in 09
11pt game in 10 (>10 but seeing a pattern here)
7pt in 17
Few blowouts each way this decade but if were using scores this looks like more of a rivalry to me.

Although I never played against SJF when I was at IC, I agree with bobby in the sense that the winner of that game usually was the team who either won the conference or might have determined who was going to the playoffs.  I'm guessing the IC team looked at the SJF game like my Ithaca teams looked at Buffalo State in the 1990s.  Although the Cortland game was always the biggest, Buffalo State was usually the better team and was the team you needed to beat to get to the next level, and that also included 2 or 3 playoff games in the early 1990s. 

That being said, I have no idea if the Ithaca coaches or players looked at SJF differently than Alfred or Springfield, although I'm guessing they did.

[pumkinattack]

Right well rivalries are supposed to last more than a decade as you point out that buss state became irrelevant in the 2000s.

LL-Hobart/Union/RPI have had to face each other for playoff berths for basically 20yrs.  I hate both union and RPi enough to make the Playa Haters Ball Hall of Fame but recognize that those two have a different type of relationship, a rivalry. 

Hobart lacrosse-not that much success at the D1 level against cuse but both teams show up for a war every year even when its not a good game. 

See what I'm saying, a rivalry is inter generational, will be around long after all our glory days-40s run and still elicit something higher. 

This isn't picking on anyone, it's just not easy to create rivalries in the true meaning and devalues real ones to throw the term around after a half dozen years.  It's not scores and it goes beyond one sport.

You also note Cortland was the bigger game even when buff st was the more important one to single season success.  Kind of makes the point.

Harder for schools that don't have as much tradition or legacy to accrue but I'd rather see something evolve for like, say, 20 or more years before people start applying that label.  It's all selfishness anyways.  Someone mentions Harvard-Yale, then a dude goes "well we've been sucking on brandy poured by our slaves at williams-Amherst games for two years longer" or "we have a little bell we play for in the Midwest".  Ego driven stuff.  There's a difference between kids and grandkids hating a school and a game that's circled on the calendar for a handful of years.  Think Ithaca cares about the SJF game anymore?  Going to bet Union (who was on par w IC in the steroid driven 80s & 90s) is a lot more important now.

[Jonny Utah]

Right well rivalries are supposed to last more than a decade as you point out that buss state became irrelevant in the 2000s.

LL-Hobart/Union/RPI have had to face each other for playoff berths for basically 20yrs.  I hate both union and RPi enough to make the Playa Haters Ball Hall of Fame but recognize that those two have a different type of relationship, a rivalry. 

Hobart lacrosse-not that much success at the D1 level against cuse but both teams show up for a war every year even when its not a good game. 

See what I'm saying, a rivalry is inter generational, will be around long after all our glory days-40s run and still elicit something higher. 

This isn't picking on anyone, it's just not easy to create rivalries in the true meaning and devalues real ones to throw the term around after a half dozen years.  It's not scores and it goes beyond one sport.

You also note Cortland was the bigger game even when buff st was the more important one to single season success.  Kind of makes the point.

Harder for schools that don't have as much tradition or legacy to accrue but I'd rather see something evolve for like, say, 20 or more years before people start applying that label.  It's all selfishness anyways.  Someone mentions Harvard-Yale, then a dude goes "well we've been sucking on brandy poured by our slaves at williams-Amherst games for two years longer" or "we have a little bell we play for in the Midwest".  Ego driven stuff.  There's a difference between kids and grandkids hating a school and a game that's circled on the calendar for a handful of years.  Think Ithaca cares about the SJF game anymore?  Going to bet Union (who was on par w IC in the steroid driven 80s & 90s) is a lot more important now.

Again I disagree.  There are different types of rivalries and not all of them are "supposed" to last more than a decade.  And the SJF/IC "rivalry" definitely wasn't manufactured either (my opinion )

I don't think anyone is calling IC/SJF some sort of Michigan/Ohio State or Harvard/Yale game.  But I think it is fair to say the two schools had a good rivalry going for a while there. 

Edit:  Now that I'm thinking of it, I think there are just different ways to look at what a rivalry is.  Ithaca has played Alfred pretty much every year since the 1960s.  Does that make it a "rivalry" or does that just mean the two teams are in the same league and are close to each other?  Does Hobart and St. Lawrence have one?  Union and Rochester?  Cortland and Brockport? 

Again, I think you can look at the terms in different ways.  Do the teams play every year?  Are the two teams/schools close to each other?  Are the two teams always competing for a playoff spot or top spot in a league?  Or maybe they compete for the bottom spot?  Is there a name for the game (Courage Bowl, Terd Bowl, Icy Bear Bowl, The Jonny Utah Atheist Bowl).  Do the games draw big crowds? 

Many factors can go into what a "rivalry" game.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Jonny gets it.  Never inferred it was a Michigan/Ohio State thing and it's an obvious statement that even in the height of the period I was referring to that Cortland would still be Ithaca's main squeeze.  But PA, you're wrong that it was manufactured.  In my opinion.  For a while there it was great fun and there were a lot of meaningful games. 

Hell even talking about it has generated more buzz on this page than there has been in a hot minute.  Which speaks to what I was driving at in the beginning of all of this.  Making a joke that saying the boards are dead now that Ithaca left the conference and all the banter that used to take place with them while they were here. 

[pumkinattack]

I would say no to all the games you cited basically as I wrote in regarding the difference between hobart vs Union/Rpi and Union v RPI.  And if you hadn't been paying attention, there's been many bloody intense Union/RPI v hobart games (Bart-Union from 04-09 was as crazy as anything SJF/IC was doing, last year also featured a lot of craziness, I recall being at jimmy robertsons coming out party which was a 3x OT game that was off the chains and have had some tough as hell ones this decade). 

I think there should be a different term because using the same word for both types really devalues the IC/kickball state, union/RPI game.

Courage bowl?  That's just a made up charity and that hasn't even been around a decade as a charity marketing event. 

Language matters to me.  Why I will never call e-sport competitors "athletes" as many do these days.  Or as Ice Bear would day, were at risk of "homogenizing" everything to the point of no distinction. 

I played too and get intense games anoint, but also understand the difference.  If we're being real real here the reason it died is that neither team has been nearly as relevant beyond NYS this decade along with people having lives to move onto in their 30s and 40s, kids and ish.  And also there was some fair weather fans who just blew it off when they couldn't pound their chest and pretend to be gracious in winning while looking down on others.  Obviously if you're still around, even in a different incarnation (except the guy who would get prissy and change names because he didn't like his negative karma scores) you're an exception, but it's not just that the game has changed between them, it's the nature of a bunch of the posters who don't like where the programs went at a later point.p

[Bombers798891]

Utah's right, here.

Here's the thing: When you're actually on the campus, and talking to people in and around the football program, there are two truths that emerge:

1. They're aware that Cortaca is the only game a whole lot of people on campus and in town actually care about, because it's Cortaca
2. There are games that have been more closely aligned with the goals of the program than Cortland.

Ithaca always wants to be a player in the postseason and in region. Fisher and (back then) Buff State simply had a bigger impact on that than Cortland did

From 2004-2013, not only was Fisher where IC wanted to be (winning 10 postseason games to ICs 1), they were one of the biggest reasons why IC wasn't there—particularly in 2004 and 2007, when two of Welch's best teams lost to them, and torpedoed their postseason chances (I mean, the 2007 team made it, but got sent to Alliance).

The Buff State/IC rivalry was also absolutely a thing: There were the two fantastic playoff games the two teams played against each other in '92 and '94. But more importantly, because IC decided to move the Cortland game up a week in the mid 1990s and IC was an independent, it was the Buff State game that got played for all the postseason marbles, not Cortaca.

In 1996, IC was 7-2 and Buff State was 7-1. Buff State won, and made the playoffs
In 1998, IC was 8-1 and Buff State was 7-2. Buff State won, and made the playoffs.
In 1999, IC was 7-2, and Buff State was 6-2. Buff State won, and made the playoffs.

The Cortaca game simply didn't carry that kind of weight, where the game mattered for *both* teams' postseason chances. You've got to go back 30 years for that.

[pumkinattack]

Well then it seems silly to put IC/Cortland on the level of RPI/Union where they both go nuts even when one team is doo doo.

But we're sitting here defining two distinct things with the same term and no one seems to be getting that. 

We could call a three year stretch of intense Hobart/SLU games this decade a rivalry, i dont. 

I would again point to the Syracuse/Hobart game, which is 100yra old, record in the D1 era isn't pretty for us, yet the Cuse kids play it like an NCAAs playoff game every year.  There's a difference between temporal and transcendent.

I've been in my share of heated games in college too.  I get it, but see the difference.  So again, how much does the SJF game matter to IC now?

This is about ego and people wanting a sense of place.  That what has gone on in these boards which don't reflect the entire communities nor is it a unbiased sample of each cohort. 

[Caz Bombers]

I remember the Fisher game going from a who cares, Hartwick in different colors, blowout matchup in my college years to the main player's rivalry, a really big game (sort of the M-Sparty to Jug's M-tOSU) and then for whatever reason SJF just fell off a few seasons ago and hasn't gotten back yet.

[Jonny Utah]

Well then it seems silly to put IC/Cortland on the level of RPI/Union where they both go nuts even when one team is doo doo.

But we're sitting here defining two distinct things with the same term and no one seems to be getting that. 

We could call a three year stretch of intense Hobart/SLU games this decade a rivalry, i dont. 

I would again point to the Syracuse/Hobart game, which is 100yra old, record in the D1 era isn't pretty for us, yet the Cuse kids play it like an NCAAs playoff game every year.  There's a difference between temporal and transcendent.

I've been in my share of heated games in college too.  I get it, but see the difference.  So again, how much does the SJF game matter to IC now?

This is about ego and people wanting a sense of place.  That what has gone on in these boards which don't reflect the entire communities nor is it a unbiased sample of each cohort.

Again I think the term "rivalry" can be used to describe different situations.  Just because Michigan has the biggest rivalry in the country with Ohio State, it doesn't mean they don't have a rivalry with Michigan State or Penn State.  Iowa and Penn State had a good one going on for a while.  Notre Dame/USC?  How about Notre Dame and Purdue or ND/BC? 

I think the (fun) thing about this topic is that you can debate on the concept.  But you seem to want to pigeonhole the concept of a rivalry which I think is wrong.

[pumkinattack]

Well your comparison still transcends decades when referring to Mich.  Not a handful of years.  And not being defined a rivalry doesn't lessen the import of a game to anyone which seems to be what you think I'm saying.  I'm not pigeonholing as you suggest, delineating which is different. 

And calling out a whole bunch of fair weather SJF fans who were desperate to be recognized and credible.  Those folks are gone unlike booby who's been around since we had old English names on LLPP or gro was telling great metaphorical stories about the schools.

[Jonny Utah]

Well your comparison still transcends decades when referring to Mich.  Not a handful of years.  And not being defined a rivalry doesn't lessen the import of a game to anyone which seems to be what you think I'm saying.  I'm not pigeonholing as you suggest, delineating which is different. 

And calling out a whole bunch of fair weather SJF fans who were desperate to be recognized and credible.  Those folks are gone unlike booby who's been around since we had old English names on LLPP or gro was telling great metaphorical stories about the schools.

I'm not comparing Mich/OSU to SJF/IC, I'm comparing Mich/OSU to a Mich/Penn State, or a Penn State/Pitt to a Penn State/Iowa.  I get that they are different, and are different types of "rivalries", but one might be a "Historical" rival compared to a "league" or "playoff" or "current" rival.  One big game in a year obviously doesn't make a rivalry, but maybe 3-5 within a few years with an added factor (big crowds, closeness of schools, likeness of institutions, playing for a conference championship/playoff spot, etc) does make the game a rivalry.

But I get what you are hinting to about the SJF fans (although I would still disagree, I didn't see them as coming off that way on this board), but you are likening them to what UConn did with UCF and the "Civil Conflict".

http://dailycampus.com/stories/2015/10/6/roundtable-civil-conflict-rivalry-or-joke-gone-too-far

[pumkinattack]

I don't mind disagreeing if we put some parameters around our definitions so we're talking about the  same thing. 

Personally I don't think 5 is enough, maybe 10 and something like a brawl on the field or multiple ejections by both sides.  Big crowds can be deceiving to me as evidence.  Competing for top spot IMO should be more in the decade type range even if it's not every year but matters to both sides each year.  Closeness of schools seems irrelevant in an aW world where conferences are aligned by geography to a large extent and are you telling me IC and SJF are alike culturally or academically?  The admin clearly didn't hunk so given more than one attempt to jump to the LL.

None of this diminishes some good games, I just think it was premature to define it as such and the next 5-10 years will beat that out.