FB: Empire 8

[Pat Coleman]

Yeah, sorry, I know I'm risking beating a dead horse since I was a little busy when the original discussion took place but I didn't want people to think I was ducking the topic.

[Yanks 99]

That is unbelievable that Boltus is not on one of those All-American teams.  More than unbelievable...a total crock.  D3football.com has taken a huge step backwards in my opinion...smells like small time politics to me.  Show me another example where an individual breaks a major all-time record, finishes in the top 5 all time in several others, plays in two post season games, wins the region POY twice, Gagliardi regional POY and finalist twice, ECAC POY, AP Little All-American 2nd team (beaten out by a DII player whose team won the DII NC), is being scouted by close to every NFL team, and is ranked the 18th best QB...in the country... by nfldraftscout.com, wins a national POY award (that you refuse to recognize), and he CANNOT make even Honorable Mention for QB on your site?  Not even a top 4 guy?

This will probably get me kicked off here...but Pat and crew...what a bunch of crap.  I thought you were better then that.  There has only been 3 times total when one of your region POY didn't make your AA team...and Boltus is now two of them.  3 out of a little under 40.  Take away Boltus and the odds of making the AA team if named one of the POY awards is about 97%.  I am not sure what your bias is against him, but you certainly have one...and it is bad form.  Not one mention of the Melberger Award on here last year...not one mention of it.  Funny how the College Football HOF recognizes the award (Boltus's jersey is hanging up at the HOF as I write this), but not D3football.  I didn't say much last year...figured there was some MUC and senior bias, and Boltus' time would come.  No excuse this year though.  How can the AP name this kid the second best QB in the country between all DII, DIII, and NAIA schools and D3football in their infinate wisdom doesn't think he is one of the best 4?  If I had to bet, I would guarantee that none of the selection committee has ever seen Boltus even play...while the Colts scout has seen him play live at least 4 times this year alone.

Total crap...congrats on a great year Boltus.  At least the big dogs recognized you appropriately.  Enjoy your dinner with Micheli's parents D3 crew.

I know this has been discussed and someone posted the actual facts, which was great, since we used actual facts and not opinion to choose the team, but I couldn't let this go without a response.

Five All-American candidate quarterbacks, four slots. There was a lot of discussion throughout the process and there is definitely an argument for all five guys being on the list, no question.

But we only choose four.

I think the quarterback most comparable to Boltus in style and numbers was Chad Rupp, and he led his team to two playoff wins and a trip to the regional finals, from a conference that had won one playoff game in nine years with an automatic bid. Everyone else we thought was better as well. Do you think that it wasn't obvious that Juan Joseph was going to throw the ball all the time, too? He had 403 pass attempts at the time of his nomination (compared to 405 for Boltus) and threw 40% fewer interceptions. And on top of it, Joseph averaged six yards a carry. (Boltus, 2.87.)

Boltus was the only one of the final five under 60% completions. He threw more touchdowns and for more yards, sure, but he threw more in general.

It's great he has pro potential and we hope he succeeds, but I think we all know that D-III talent doesn't equally translate to pro potential.

As for the Melberger, we don't recognize regional awards. Just because the pro football Hall of Fame recognizes the Wilkes-Barre Touchdown Club's player of the year doesn't mean they should. If they had a national award chosen by a national committee, we would recognize it. But they threw that away more than five years ago. We didn't recognize it when Boltus was chosen, we didn't recognize it when Chris Sharpe was chosen and we didn't recognize it when Wilkes RB Brett Trichilo -- twice.

You are right Pat…there is nothing in my previous post that is fact.  It is all speculation…I made the whole thing up.  Come on now.  The only “opinion” in the post is the fact that I think you screwed over Boltus two years in a row, but especially this year.  If you can, I would love to see you show me which of the following is not a fact about Jason Boltus:

1)   Only 2 time D3 Region POY never to be named a D3Football All-American.  Swallow, Joseph, Rupp, and Micheli have never won their Region POY award once, and yet 3 of the 4 are two time All-Americans.
2)   Named the Melberger Award winner last year, and in the running this year, awarded to DIII Football’s Most Outstanding Player.
3)   ECAC POY last year, and in the running for the award this year.
4)   Played in the post season in each of the last two years (NCCA in 2007 and ECAC in 2008).  In the four years before that, Hartwick had 11 wins total.
5)   Responsible for the most yards in the history of D3 football.  Ranked in the top 5 in D3 history for the most passing yards and most TD passes.
6)   AP Little All-American 2nd team for 2008, where the team is made up of DII, DIII, and NAIA players.  The QB that beat Boltus out for 1st team was the QB for the undefeated DII Champions, Minnesota-Duluth. 
7)   Two time Gagliardi Regional POY and finalist, making the top 4 for two consecutive years.
8.   Ranked the 17th best QB in the entire country (all Divisions) by nfldraftscout.com as of 12/23/08.
9)   You have had 35 Region POY awards since 2005.  32 of 35 made your All-American team (91%).  Take away Boltus, and now 32 of 33 (97%) make your AA team.  During this time, 31 of the 35 made at least 2nd team AA (89%).


Some thoughts…again…if you find something in here that is false, or inaccurate, please let me know.

1)   I am not saying the Melberger Award is perfect…but lets face it, neither are you guys at D3, or at the Gagliardi committee.  The award over the past few years has made a concerted effort to name the actual National POY award…not just a regional POY.  When Brett Elliott from Linfield won the award in 05, was it a regional award?  Last time I checked, Oregon was no where near Wilkes-Barre…but who knows, I didn’t major in geography.  And just because you guys didn’t think Chris Sharpe was not the POY in 06 doesn’t mean that he couldn’t be the National POY.  What about Chuck Moore (MUC) in 01, or R.J. Bowers (Grove City) in 00?  Just curious…did you recognize the award back then when one of your boys from MUC won the award?  I know you will tell me all about 02-04, but that was over 3 years ago.  Certainly, you could argue the POY for the last 3 years was completely legitimate.  Also…I will trust the folks at the Football HOF to determine whether or not they recognize a D3 National POY award…not an individual who sits on the board for another POY award.

2)   If you are going to say the Melberger Award isn’t a National POY award, lets just go ahead and do the same for the Gagliardi Award.  Lets call it the “Good Player, Good Student, Good Citizen Award”.  I know you won’t, or can’t, because you are on the committee, but it is amazing to me that all of a sudden this year GPA and service is what really counts when it comes to deciding the intangibles.  Lets just come out and say it…the guy that won the award this year isn’t even the best player on his team…let alone the nation.  It doesn’t matter that the coach didn’t nominate Nate Kmic.  If you are going to penalize the Melberger for not naming the “true” National POY in your opinion, then lets do the same to the Gagliardi and move on.  By the way, I think GPA is a great measure for who should win the award…I am sure that Justin Beavers 3.5+ GPA in physical education was the deciding factor for last years award, much like Greg Micheli’s 3.84 GPA was this year.

3)   You are basically trying to tell me that completion percentage was the deciding factor for why Boltus didn’t get on the AA team.  OK.  Way to focus on Boltus being under 60%...by .002.  Man, if only he completed 3% more of his passes, he would have been tied with Rupp.

4)   Wow…I didn’t notice that Juan Joseph threw 40% less interceptions then Boltus.  That sounds like a lot.  Except 10 INT’s compared to 6 INT’s is actually really close.  It is not like Boltus threw 20 picks and Joseph only 12 picks.

5)   “He threw for more TD’s and more yards, but he threw more in general.”  That is your quote Pat.  Whoops…here are the real facts.  Boltus had less attempts then all four of the other QB’s, except for Micheli.  About 40 less attempts then Joseph and Swallow, and about 100 less attempts then Rupp.  And he still threw for more TD’s then all of them, and more yards then all of them except Rupp.

6)   So because Rupp’s conference has been terrible in the past 9 years, he should be rewarded this year because someone from their conference finally got a win or two?  By this rational, you might as well name the Curry QB AA, as no one from their conference had won a playoff game until the last two years.

7)   That’s great that you don’t think D3 talent doesn’t translate to pro potential.  In most cases I would completely agree with you.  Maybe Boltus never sniffs an NFL field.  But I have to imagine the scouts think he is pretty good…as just about every single NFL team has seen him play…many more then once.  I don’t see the Indianapolis Colts scouts wasting their time on a D3 QB simply because he could be a feel good story.  They obviously see some potential there…whether it is realized or not is to be determined.

I do have to ask Pat, it seems like you have a bias against Hartwick College in general.  I will go back to the Curry mess last year.  Wick took a lot of heat last year when they lost to Curry…and rightfully so.  Why are you guys at D3 not crushing IC for this years loss?  All of a sudden they beat IC at Butterfield, and it is “good win, they are a good team, good program.”  Did something go down with you and someone at Hartwick over the past few years that we don’t know about?  Seriously?

And why do we care about “beating a dead horse” when the season is over?  What else is there to talk about?  It sounds to me like you feel uncomfortable about the conversation and are trying to end it as quickly as possible.  And just a friendly reminder, you name your All-American team based on your opinion Pat.  You run this webpage, and for that, many are grateful…myself included.  But don’t try to say that I am simply spitting out random opinions with no basis of fact, and that you base all of your decisions for your All-American teams simply by the X’s and O’s and statistics in front of you.  I think Jason Boltus is the best QB in the country…you think Greg Micheli is the best QB in the country.  The NFL scouts think Boltus is the best D3 QB in the country…but they are probably only making that decision based off of their opinion.  See how that works?

Also, and you never answered this question.  How many times have you seen Boltus play live, if ever?  Which game?  What about films?  I am willing to bet the answer is zero.  I hope you prove me wrong.

[Pat Coleman]

Not per game. Are you looking per game? Remember all of those quarterbacks made the playoffs and their totals certainly rose since their nomination.

Is he in the running this year? I am not sure there is a Melberger. Here's an e-mail I got from an SID after the regular season:

Pat,

Would you happen to have any clue what's going on with the Melberger Award?

I cannot find any information on it whatsoever. No deadlines, no contact information, nothing.

Wondered if you might know something....

Funny how you think not being the best offensive player in the North somehow disqualifies you from being the best quarterback in the nation. As if there were some fairness doctrine that insists that there be only one good player in each region?

I've already discussed how pro potential is irrelevant here. You can continue to bring it up but I'm going to be ignoring your posts. What you present in your 1-9 does include facts but none of it is relevant to the 2008 All-American discussion. It's not a career award, it's a 2008 award. It's not something the AP votes on (like the AP watches D-II, D-III and NAIA games?). It's not something the Wilkes-Barre Touchdown Club votes on. It's not something the SIDs in the ECAC vote on. (At least, when I was an SID, that's how the ECAC All-Star Team was conducted.) It's not voted on by the Gagliardi committee (other than the fact that Keith and I are on both groups).

[Yanks 99]

*golf clap*

bravo pat

Do you hear the song "Dream Weaver" by Aerosmith when you write directly to Pat?  

Kidding...but I will say this, if Mark Robinson were to win the Region POY twice (I know he won it once) and not be named an AA...I would be upset...and I am not even a SJF fan.

[Yanks 99]

Not per game. Are you looking per game? Remember all of those quarterbacks made the playoffs and their totals certainly rose since their nomination.

Is he in the running this year? I am not sure there is a Melberger. Here's an e-mail I got from an SID after the regular season:

Pat,

Would you happen to have any clue what’s going on with the Melberger Award?

I cannot find any information on it whatsoever. No deadlines, no contact information, nothing.

Wondered if you might know something….

Funny how you think not being the best offensive player in the North somehow disqualifies you from being the best quarterback in the nation. As if there were some fairness doctrine that insists that there be only one good player in each region?

I've already discussed how pro potential is irrelevant here. You can continue to bring it up but I'm going to be ignoring your posts. What you present in your 1-9 does include facts but none of it is relevant to the 2008 All-American discussion. It's not a career award, it's a 2008 award. It's not something the AP votes on (like the AP watches D-II, D-III and NAIA games?). It's not something the Wilkes-Barre Touchdown Club votes on. It's not something the SIDs in the ECAC vote on. (At least, when I was an SID, that's how the ECAC All-Star Team was conducted.) It's not voted on by the Gagliardi committee (other than the fact that Keith and I are on both groups).

I agree pro potential shouldn't be the reason to vote someone in.  But to simply ignore the fact is a bit ignorant don't you think?  Not just in the spectrum of a career, but more importantly for the season.

I understand that there is a small group of you guys picking your AA team.  Again...you have never answered the question of whether or not you have ever seen Boltus play live?  What about on film? 

[Pat Coleman]

1)   I am not saying the Melberger Award is perfect...but lets face it, neither are you guys at D3, or at the Gagliardi committee.  The award over the past few years has made a concerted effort to name the actual National POY award...not just a regional POY.  When Brett Elliott from Linfield won the award in 05, was it a regional award?  Last time I checked, Oregon was no where near Wilkes-Barre...but who knows, I didn't major in geography.  And just because you guys didn't think Chris Sharpe was not the POY in 06 doesn't mean that he couldn't be the National POY.  What about Chuck Moore (MUC) in 01, or R.J. Bowers (Grove City) in 00?  Just curious...did you recognize the award back then when one of your boys from MUC won the award?  I know you will tell me all about 02-04, but that was over 3 years ago.  Certainly, you could argue the POY for the last 3 years was completely legitimate.  Also...I will trust the folks at the Football HOF to determine whether or not they recognize a D3 National POY award...not an individual who sits on the board for another POY award.

So one time in six years they pick someone from outside a 300-mile radius (or whatever, I'm sure you'll nitpick and check the math) and we're supposed to rise up and say hallelujah? Once upon a time the Melberger was a national award. And in 2002, it excluded the top 50 players. And in 2003, it disbanded its national coter committee. And so we don't recognize it.

Like the Football HOF knows a damn thing about Division III football? Seriously? Come on now.

2)   If you are going to say the Melberger Award isn't a National POY award, lets just go ahead and do the same for the Gagliardi Award.  Lets call it the "Good Player, Good Student, Good Citizen Award".  I know you won't, or can't, because you are on the committee, but it is amazing to me that all of a sudden this year GPA and service is what really counts when it comes to deciding the intangibles.  Lets just come out and say it...the guy that won the award this year isn't even the best player on his team...let alone the nation.  It doesn't matter that the coach didn't nominate Nate Kmic.  If you are going to penalize the Melberger for not naming the "true" National POY in your opinion, then lets do the same to the Gagliardi and move on.  By the way, I think GPA is a great measure for who should win the award...I am sure that Justin Beavers 3.5+ GPA in physical education was the deciding factor for last years award, much like Greg Micheli's 3.84 GPA was this year.

I never call the Gagliardi "the true National POY." You must be assuming something.

"The award recognizes the outstanding Division III football student-athlete in terms of playing ability, academics and community service."
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2008/12/16/1624/micheli-named-gagliardi-winner.html

The Gagliardi Trophy, given to the top well-rounded football player in Division III, has been awarded since 1993, and recognizes the top individual achiever in athletics, academics and community service.
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2008/11/26/1589/gagliardi-finalists-named.html

But the fact remains: It's a NATIONAL award. It isn't the national PLAYER OF THE YEAR, but it's a NATIONAL award. We don't recognize local or regional awards, which is why we don't publish notables about the ECAC awards or the Golden Helmet or the Virginia SID awards or anything like that.

3)   You are basically trying to tell me that completion percentage was the deciding factor for why Boltus didn't get on the AA team.  OK.  Way to focus on Boltus being under 60%...by .002.  Man, if only he completed 3% more of his passes, he would have been tied with Rupp.

And interception rate. Through the 11 weeks before nomninations, Micheli was 77.2, Rupp was 64.6, Joseph was 67.0 and Swallow was 66.3. Boltus was 59.8.

4)   Wow...I didn't notice that Juan Joseph threw 40% less interceptions then Boltus.  That sounds like a lot.  Except 10 INT's compared to 6 INT's is actually really close.  It is not like Boltus threw 20 picks and Joseph only 12 picks.

No, it's exactly like that, actually. The percentage -- you know, the rate at which someone throws interceptions -- is important. If one person throws a pick every 40 passes and one every 67, that's significant.

5)   "He threw for more TD's and more yards, but he threw more in general."  That is your quote Pat.  Whoops...here are the real facts.  Boltus had less attempts then all four of the other QB's, except for Micheli.  About 40 less attempts then Joseph and Swallow, and about 100 less attempts then Rupp.  And he still threw for more TD's then all of them, and more yards then all of them except Rupp.

Not per game. Not when the nomination process happened at the end of the regular season.

6)   So because Rupp's conference has been terrible in the past 9 years, he should be rewarded this year because someone from their conference finally got a win or two?  By this rational, you might as well name the Curry QB AA, as no one from their conference had won a playoff game until the last two years.

Isn't that exactly what you want us to do for Boltus? Seems like it, since you mention they won 11 games the four years before he got there.

7)   That's great that you don't think D3 talent doesn't translate to pro potential.  In most cases I would completely agree with you.  Maybe Boltus never sniffs an NFL field.  But I have to imagine the scouts think he is pretty good...as just about every single NFL team has seen him play...many more then once.  I don't see the Indianapolis Colts scouts wasting their time on a D3 QB simply because he could be a feel good story.  They obviously see some potential there...whether it is realized or not is to be determined.

What the scouts think for NFL purposes is completely irrelevant in Division III. Sometimes the two overlap, like they did with Pierre Garcon. And sometimes they don't, like with Justin Beaver.

I do have to ask Pat, it seems like you have a bias against Hartwick College in general.  I will go back to the Curry mess last year.  Wick took a lot of heat last year when they lost to Curry...and rightfully so.  Why are you guys at D3 not crushing IC for this years loss?  All of a sudden they beat IC at Butterfield, and it is "good win, they are a good team, good program."  Did something go down with you and someone at Hartwick over the past few years that we don't know about?  Seriously?

No. We just don't think Boltus is one of the top four Division III quarterbacks in the country.

And why do we care about "beating a dead horse" when the season is over?  What else is there to talk about?  It sounds to me like you feel uncomfortable about the conversation and are trying to end it as quickly as possible.  And just a friendly reminder, you name your All-American team based on your opinion Pat.  You run this webpage, and for that, many are grateful...myself included.  But don't try to say that I am simply spitting out random opinions with no basis of fact, and that you base all of your decisions for your All-American teams simply by the X's and O's and statistics in front of you.  I think Jason Boltus is the best QB in the country...you think Greg Micheli is the best QB in the country.  The NFL scouts think Boltus is the best D3 QB in the country...but they are probably only making that decision based off of their opinion.  See how that works?

No. They think he is the best NFL quarterback in D-III. There's a difference, which I'm sure even you can recognize in the midst of your ranting and raving.

I didn't want to bring back up a topic which seemed like it induced a lot of angst and had simmered down. That was why I referenced it as I did.

Also, and you never answered this question.  How many times have you seen Boltus play live, if ever?  Which game?  What about films?  I am willing to bet the answer is zero.  I hope you prove me wrong.

Indeed, the answer is zero. I wish that Hartwick was on the Empire8.TV thing a little more often so I could have.

But, I never saw Swallow personally either, and I never saw Rupp personally. I only saw Joseph on live video. See, I'm not an NFL scout, so I don't rely solely on visual evidence. Doesn't help me. I'm not trying to evaluate them personally for the next level, anyway. That seems to be a primary part of your argument.

I know people who did vote have seen Boltus live and on video. But there was a strong general consensus that this was the right answer regardless.

[Yanks 99]

Thank you Pat.  You answered my question.  Without any of you ever seeing him play, live or on film, you determined that Boltus wasn't one of the best 4 QB's in the country.  I am sorry to hear that...I think you opinion would have been much different. 

Oregon is a bit further then 300 miles outside of Wilkes-Barre...but that is OK.  Something tells me you probably mentioned the award when Brett Elliott won it.  Honestly, you are on the committe for the Gagliardi, so I wouldn't expect a different answer...considering there is a major conflict of interest and all.

Stats can work both ways.  In my eyes, Boltus meant more to his team then any team in the country, threw for far more yards and far more TD's then his counterparts in less games.  Are you telling me you take per game average into account more then totals?

At least you are honest...you make your picks...the 3 or 4 of you anyways...without seeing some of the players actually play (in this case Boltus), and then get mad when people question what your methods of picking the teams are?  Its cool Pat.  Honestly...I am not mad.  I called it weeks ago...told a bunch of people that you would leave Boltus off of the team again, and even bet them a case of beer that you have never seen him play.  So at least I will have an additional 24 beers over the holiday season.

[K-Mack]

I haven't read the entirety of the Boltus discussion, but I can add this:

It's certainly reasonable to wonder how he could not be an all-American. I had the same group of QBs plus four more on the Gagliardi ballot, which was due well before the all-Americans were selected, and I had the same reaction.

I pored over all the information, including many I had seen play and a few I hadn't -- and I came up with the same thing, Boltus either fourth or fifth (can't recall), right around Bobby Swallow and clearly behind Micheli, Rupp and Juan Joseph. I had the same reaction, like 'wow, how can Boltus be fourth or fifth?' "

The Gagliardi, of course, recognizes the total package, and there are guys further down the list, like Otterbein's Jack Rafferty (4.0 GPA, led team to 9-2 record, etc.) who fell in behind Boltus despite being the among the most exceptional Division III has to offer. The Division III All-American team recognizes the QB who accomplished the most in D3.

When you look at everything objectively -- and I realize this is not the case for you, but try to understand that's our aim -- that's what people came up with.

The quality of the candidates is such that I don't know if we could go wrong ... but we were also bound to tick somebody off.

I think the big things working against Boltus were team success (not that scoring 68 in an ECAC game is bad, but there's an argument for  compared to guys who all led their groups to the second round of the playoffs or beyond) and completion percentage. Here are their lines (yds-TD-INT-Comp%) and the people who selected AA

Micheli 3745-36-2-75% (also big rushing numbers, team success)
Joseph 3463-34-6-67%
Rupp 4181-41-14-63%
Swallow 3778-37-6-66%
Boltus 3934-46-10-60%

None of them are bad. They're all exceptional. You can make a case for all five of them, as well as others -- Monmouth's Alex Tanney had maybe crazier numbers than anyone (3624-50-8-69%) and he wasn't in the discussion -- and I would if I really thought it would help you understand, but I'll save my breath. Some had less talent to work with, others did it against better competition.

Try to put yourself in our shoes. Nobody here is saying Jason Boltus is anything less than the cream of the crop. He likely is the most coveted pro prospect in D3 this season, as I wrote in the first installment of the ATN year in review. All these guys are very deserving of an AA honor, but somebody had to make a decision, and somebody GREAT was going to get left off.

I realize calling it "small-time politics" is something people say when they don't like how things shook out, so I won't take that personally, even though you are more or less attacking our credibility. But I'm not even sure how "politically" it would help us to butter up Franklin, Millsaps or Washington & Jefferson, especially considering we seem to have more interest from the East Region than most other places. Politics would have probably HELPED Boltus if we played them.

I'm not asking you to change your mind, and if I was, I'm not sure it would make you. But I hope you could see how someone could take this task seriously and come out with Boltus not on the team.

I think there most certainly is an argument FOR him. Maybe we didn't get the right guy, but if we'd left any of those other guys off, we'd be having this same argument on their board.

Knowing that you care so much about the snub reminds us that our picks are relevant, and that we need to do our best to name the right guys.

[Pat Coleman]

So one time in six years they pick someone from outside a 300-mile radius (or whatever, I'm sure you'll nitpick and check the math) and we're supposed to rise up and say hallelujah?

Oregon is a bit further then 300 miles outside of Wilkes-Barre...but that is OK. 

I've highlighted a part that you might want to read again.

Something tells me you probably mentioned the award when Brett Elliott won it. 

Here's the news for December 2005. Let me know if you find mention of the Melberger.

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2005/12

On the off chance it wasn't announced until January that year, here's the January 2006 notables.

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2006/01

You see, it's not a Hartwick conspiracy. We simply do, not, ever, recognize the Melberger. Not since it dropped the ball in 2002 and left 50 of the best candidates off its ballot. That's when the Melberger left the national scene and became relegated to niche status.

Honestly, you are on the committe for the Gagliardi, so I wouldn't expect a different answer...considering there is a major conflict of interest and all.

I vote for the Gagliardi. I'm not "on the committee." If I were on the committee, I'd be whittling the original dozens of nominations down to the 10 finalists. And honestly, I'd love to be in that decision-making process, so it's not solely in the hands of the St. John's booster club. But I'm not.

I vote on a lot of things, like the Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year and the Lambert Poll.

And, a D3football.com writer had a vote on the Melberger, when the Melberger still had voters.

[Pat Coleman]

Thank you Pat.  You answered my question. 

I've also debunked a whole boatload of your assumptions. The chip on your shoulder is so big it's blinding you.

[Yanks 99]

Thank you Pat.  You answered my question. 

I've also debunked a whole boatload of your assumptions. The chip on your shoulder is so big it's blinding you.

Actually Pat, you reinforced many of them.  In some cases you use regular season statistics when it suits your arguements, in other cases you use post season stats.  I am not blinded, and I certainly don't have a chip on my shoulder...not over anything you would have to say.   Besides Pat, I can also go back and highlight the part where I said it looks like the Melberger was awarded to the actualy POY over the last 3 years.  You may not agree, but there is certainly a really, really strong arguement that the last 3 Melberger winners (Elliott in 05, Sharpe in 06, and Boltus in 07) were actually the POY.

I personally like K-Mack's response.  Well thought out, kind of went through the whole process on his selection thoughts, etc.  He won't change my mind, but I can see where he was coming from.

You proved my point...you kept telling my why someone was an inferior player to others, then turned around and admitted to never seeing him play...the whole time telling me you used "facts" to make your selections.  Honestly...I am not mad...but I will certainly put a lot less stock in your post season award selections.

[Yanks 99]

Pat, I took a look at your website...and I found something interesting.  You had mentioned something earlier about numbers "per game".  Jason Boltus lead the COUNTRY in the following categories...PER GAME:

1) Passing yards per game
2) Total offense per game
3) Points responsible for per game

Additionally, he finished 3rd in passing efficiency in the country...and somehow threw for 46 TD's in only 10 games.

I think that blows away your "per game" theory.  These are some major offensive categories.

[K-Mack]

Thank you Pat.  You answered my question.  Without any of you ever seeing him play, live or on film, you determined that Boltus wasn't one of the best 4 QB's in the country.  I am sorry to hear that...I think you opinion would have been much different. 

I have certainly been more impressed with guys after seeing them play in person.

That said, with 239 teams to cover, it's just not realistic for any one person to try to see them all play. In the absence of first-hand knowledge, we almost without fail consult with someone who has seen the players in question play. Don't be so quick to assume seeing players play live is the only way they are evaluated. Certainly it's the most effective method, but even then you can catch them on a bad day and not get the full picture of how talented they are.

It's a fair bet no one or close to no one responsible for giving Boltus all his other accolades saw him play either. That's the nature of the D3 beast.

Honestly, when I saw the final team, I knew this was gonna be a [poop]storm. I might have been inclined to stick Boltus on there just to avoid it. The fact that D3football.com doesn't do that probably enhances its credibility.

In other news, I never saw Jason Chier of Ithaca play either, but I had a large hand in selecting the All-American CBs and Ss. Chier's eight INTs and four blocked kicks against the competition he went against was a resume that the others in the pool couldn't match, but statistics can be misleading for cornerbacks especially. From those who saw him, how good was he?

[K-Mack]

Yanks 99,
It's fair to say there's no convincing you, right?

Agree to disagree?

Usually we defend our reputation not so much for the one guy posting who's clearly got his mind made up, but for the bystanders who can be swayed by reason.

[K-Mack]

I personally like K-Mack's response.  Well thought out, kind of went through the whole process on his selection thoughts, etc.  He won't change my mind, but I can see where he was coming from.

Thanks. I think this is the best we can hope for sometimes.