FB: Empire 8

[Yanks 99]

I don't expect Pat, or any of you guys, to see every team play...but when he starts off saying he picked teams "based on facts, and not opinions" in an almost "how dare you" disagree with my decision, and then it takes him a bit to admit that he has never seen Boltus play...it doesn't help his arguement. 

I have seen Micheli and Boltus play...so of the top 5 I have seen as many QB's as Pat has.  I have already said on here I am not worried about the system...it will never be perfect, and I understand that.  I will tell you what, at least you admit that playoff production had some value.  So far, you and Keith are the only ones to do so.  All I heard for a while was "regular season" stats...and something about per game average.  One of my major issues is Pat said something to the effects of seeing a player in person wasn't important.  I will tell you what...seeing both Micheli and Boltus play...I would take Boltus in a heartbeat (clearly my opinion...calm down Pat, not a fact).  You may never see such a discepancy in the history of college football between similar QB's when it comes to who does more with less.  Micheli, obviously does more with way more...including a mammoth offensive line and the all time NCAA leader in rushing yards who happen to break the single season rushing record.  Boltus actually weighs more then one of his offensive lineman.  I am not saying that Micheli isn't a great D3 QB, but to act like he had this other-worldly season when really he was a second option in his own offense is a little deceiving.

What stats have I conveniently left out?  We have pretty much hit all of them at this point...the only reason I brought up the ones listed above are because Pat kept referring to "per game" average as the major decision point.

[clandfan]

 
Yanks, to say you would pick Boltus in a heartbeat smacks of bias and I think you would find as many, if not more, that would pick Micheli in a heartbeat.  You are too close to be objective.  I, too, have seen them both play and I think that it would take serious deliberation to separate them.  I am confident that serious deliberation occurred.  Whether, or not, the selection criteria be more transparent...may be a fair argument.

[Yanks 99]

Yanks, to say you would pick Boltus in a heartbeat smacks of bias and I think you would find as many, if not more, that would pick Micheli in a heartbeat.  You are too close to be objective.  I, too, have seen them both play and I think that it would take serious deliberation to separate them.  I am confident that serious deliberation occurred.  Whether, or not, the selection criteria be more transparent...may be a fair argument.

I said as much...from a fan standpoint, of course I would pick Boltus.  I can be objective too.  I have never once said that Micheli wasn't an AA, or that he shouldn't be on the team.  However, I am willing to bet he gets more of the "I would pick him in a heartbeat" votes simply because he plays for MUC.  I do think it is funny though that he is considered the "best" QB in the country, and yet he is pretty much the only QB  (among the top 5 considered) that Pat has seen live...numerous times...which according to him doesn't really help him select who is an AA.  Interesting don't you think?  The #1 guy is the one he has seen play the most...but he says that shouldn't be the basis of selection.  I will be anxiously awaiting all of Micheli's wonderful stats as the reason Pat actually chose him.

I completely agree with you last statement about the selection criteria being more transparent...and that is what I am getting at.  So far, Keith is the only one to really give the full spectrum of why he picked who he did without sounding like "because I said so".  I have already told Keith, we will disagree, but I completely respect his decision.  I am sure serious, or relatively serious, deliberation occurred. 

I also find it interesting that that there was a poll about a few weeks ago asking who was going to get left off of the AA team for QB.  Remember, it was who was going to be left off of the team, not who should be.  Shockingly, it was Boltus.  Hell, even I picked Boltus...not because I thought he should be left off the AA team, but because I knew back then that he would get the shaft...as he got the shaft last year.  I wonder if the final voting in that poll had anything to do with Pat's decision?

[wickfan]

I also went to some lengths to define the voters' role very carefully for you, twice now, in fact, because what they call a "committee" doesn't do all of the functions that you may assume.

Got it Pat.  Don't take it personal...all I was thinking about being on the committee was that you had a vote in who got the award...which you do.  After that, who cares what goes on behind the scene.  OK...I got it...you are not on the committee doing normal committee things, but are officiallly on the committee according to the site, but really all you do is vote to decide the award.  Am I close?

You seem to be avoiding some questions as well...a little bit like when I asked you if you have ever seen Boltus play.  I actually do understand that you cannot go and see every college player play in a year.  I can appreciate that.  So, and you admitted this...you rely heavily on stats, and in some cases stats "per game".  So back to my last question, when a guy leads the country in the following category like Boltus does, how does he get overlooked?

1) Passing yards per game - #1 in the country
2) Total offense per game - #1 in the country
3) Points responsible for per game - #1 in the country
4) TD passes per game - #1 in the country
5) TD passes in the year (and in only 10 games) - #1 in the country
6) Passing efficiency - #3 in the country

How do those stats not jump out?  I know there are other intangibles that you have to look at...it isn't all stats, but your arguement always goes back to "so and so" had better stats then Boltus.  That is fine...but then how do you ignore the stats above.  You could make this much easier on yourself by just saying that you waited to see which of the QB's made it the furthest in the playoffs, and save yourself a lot of time...my guess though is you won't do that.  First, because it blows a hole in your "stats through the regular season" arguement, and second because that ties you down in future years.

Those stats are what got Boltus nominated, no doubt.  However, you're stacking the deck -- there were some other statistics that played into the decisions for the All-American Team that have been addressed here that you've conveniently left out.  And that's the point -- different people will place different emphasis on different statistics, and that's their right.  They don't deserve to be persecuted for the decisions.

The whole "did you see him play" question is a non-starter when Pat admitted that he hasn't and that it's the case that he hasn't seen most of the players nominated play.  Pat's not the only decider in the All-American Team, but I'm pretty sure that you'd get the same answer down the line.  It's great that you believe seeing Jason Boltus play would somehow change someone's mind about him, but I have a feeling that each of the quarterbacks chosen would exhibit many of the same qualities -- and here's the kicker, Yanks -- YOU DON'T KNOW YOURSELF what the other quarterbacks look like.  You lack a little credibility when you use that argument over and over again since you haven't seen most of the players yourself.

Would I have personally voted for Boltus?  Probably, but only as high as the Third Team because I believe in the value of the pass efficiency ratings (which are distant at first and second but bunched up for third, fourth, fifth and sixth).  These figures aren't end-all, be-all numbers, but it is where I would get a good feel for the QBs nominated.  Playoff production should be of some value, too, since it places a player against the best on the other side of the ball -- but we don't have much to use here to compare Boltus (the Brockport shootout was a loss, and Boltus was intercepted twice during the Brockport comeback).  

My point here is this:  I can understand why Boltus did not appear on the All-American Team.  Was it a close call?  Absolutely.  We discussed this during the Stagg Bowl Pregame Show (which hopefully you've listened to already, as some of the reasons are explained there).  Is the system perfect?  No, but there is no way to truly perfect the process in the ways you advocate since there are too many teams and not enough ability to watch every player play.  Yet, I can assure you that there is a pretty painstaking process used by the D3Football.com crew that votes on the Team -- I watched it in motion while I was in Salem, and there were several very close calls which they took extremely seriously.  

Congratulations to Jason Boltus on a great season and career -- as well as Jack Phelan.  You both are very deserving of all the kudos you have received and will receive.

To Yanks point before, Boltus was running for his life the 2nd half of the Brockport game. If they had a defense they win by 30.....he was under a lot of duress all season. I posted before, if Micheli played for Hartwick, he would not have had Boltus stats.  Just my opinion thouigh....I have watched live a ton of D 1AA, D2 and D3 regular season and playoffs and Boltus should have been playing at least at the 1AA level.  Can we say that about the other QB's?

[Bombers798891]

I also went to some lengths to define the voters' role very carefully for you, twice now, in fact, because what they call a "committee" doesn't do all of the functions that you may assume.

Got it Pat.  Don't take it personal...all I was thinking about being on the committee was that you had a vote in who got the award...which you do.  After that, who cares what goes on behind the scene.  OK...I got it...you are not on the committee doing normal committee things, but are officiallly on the committee according to the site, but really all you do is vote to decide the award.  Am I close?

You seem to be avoiding some questions as well...a little bit like when I asked you if you have ever seen Boltus play.  I actually do understand that you cannot go and see every college player play in a year.  I can appreciate that.  So, and you admitted this...you rely heavily on stats, and in some cases stats "per game".  So back to my last question, when a guy leads the country in the following category like Boltus does, how does he get overlooked?

1) Passing yards per game - #1 in the country
2) Total offense per game - #1 in the country
3) Points responsible for per game - #1 in the country
4) TD passes per game - #1 in the country
5) TD passes in the year (and in only 10 games) - #1 in the country
6) Passing efficiency - #3 in the country

How do those stats not jump out?  I know there are other intangibles that you have to look at...it isn't all stats, but your arguement always goes back to "so and so" had better stats then Boltus.  That is fine...but then how do you ignore the stats above.  You could make this much easier on yourself by just saying that you waited to see which of the QB's made it the furthest in the playoffs, and save yourself a lot of time...my guess though is you won't do that.  First, because it blows a hole in your "stats through the regular season" arguement, and second because that ties you down in future years.

Those stats are what got Boltus nominated, no doubt.  However, you're stacking the deck -- there were some other statistics that played into the decisions for the All-American Team that have been addressed here that you've conveniently left out.  And that's the point -- different people will place different emphasis on different statistics, and that's their right.  They don't deserve to be persecuted for the decisions.

The whole "did you see him play" question is a non-starter when Pat admitted that he hasn't and that it's the case that he hasn't seen most of the players nominated play.  Pat's not the only decider in the All-American Team, but I'm pretty sure that you'd get the same answer down the line.  It's great that you believe seeing Jason Boltus play would somehow change someone's mind about him, but I have a feeling that each of the quarterbacks chosen would exhibit many of the same qualities -- and here's the kicker, Yanks -- YOU DON'T KNOW YOURSELF what the other quarterbacks look like.  You lack a little credibility when you use that argument over and over again since you haven't seen most of the players yourself.

Would I have personally voted for Boltus?  Probably, but only as high as the Third Team because I believe in the value of the pass efficiency ratings (which are distant at first and second but bunched up for third, fourth, fifth and sixth).  These figures aren't end-all, be-all numbers, but it is where I would get a good feel for the QBs nominated.  Playoff production should be of some value, too, since it places a player against the best on the other side of the ball -- but we don't have much to use here to compare Boltus (the Brockport shootout was a loss, and Boltus was intercepted twice during the Brockport comeback).  

My point here is this:  I can understand why Boltus did not appear on the All-American Team.  Was it a close call?  Absolutely.  We discussed this during the Stagg Bowl Pregame Show (which hopefully you've listened to already, as some of the reasons are explained there).  Is the system perfect?  No, but there is no way to truly perfect the process in the ways you advocate since there are too many teams and not enough ability to watch every player play.  Yet, I can assure you that there is a pretty painstaking process used by the D3Football.com crew that votes on the Team -- I watched it in motion while I was in Salem, and there were several very close calls which they took extremely seriously.  

Congratulations to Jason Boltus on a great season and career -- as well as Jack Phelan.  You both are very deserving of all the kudos you have received and will receive.

To Yanks point before, Boltus was running for his life the 2nd half of the Brockport game. If they had a defense they win by 30.....he was under a lot of duress all season. I posted before, if Micheli played for Hartwick, he would not have had Boltus stats.  Just my opinion thouigh....I have watched live a ton of D 1AA, D2 and D3 regular season and playoffs and Boltus should have been playing at least at the 1AA level.  Can we say that about the other QB's?

My God, 4 pages of this stuff. He was a great QB, and he may go pro, but how much more can we endlessly debate all the statistics and reasons for Boltus' inclusion/exclusion from the list? I mean, ok, you guys think he should be in and there's no convincing you otherwise. Pat and others feel differently and won't be convinced otherwise. What are you hoping to accomplish at this point? You've made your arguments, let it end. At the end of the day, he's not on the list. Oh well. Happy holidays to all

[fisheralum91]

for the love of god can we switch topics?
this is so old and over done it really is getting sickening.

the season is over.

boltus is gone....blah blah blah.

next topic

[fisheralum91]

we are on the same page bombers---merry xmas

[HHawks]

Guys Football Season is over what else is there to talk about? I have something when I first came on here I posted my pre season predictions and everybody got crazy and called my results completely unrealistic. Well it turns out my predictions wasn't really that far off.

My Predictions
1. Hartwick 8-1
2. Ithaca 8-2
3. ST. John Fisher 7-3
4. Utica 6-4
5. Springfield 6-4
6. Alfred 6-4
7. Norwich 2-8


Actual Standings (At end of regular season)
1. Ithaca 9-1
2. Hartwick 7-2
3. Alfred 7-3
4. St. John Fisher 6-4
5. Utica 3-7
6. Springfield 4-6
7. Norwich 2-8

[fisheralum91]

ok guys ill do it-----------
hawk- do you want a medal?

[HHawks]

ok guys ill do it-----------
hawk- do you want a medal?

Sure, I'll take one. lol, Happy Holidays Fisheralum91.

[fisheralum91]

merry christmas to you and yours hawks!

[Yanks 99]

ok guys ill do it-----------
hawk- do you want a medal?

Good job FA...you bitch and moan about changing topics...someone does, and you immediately jump on him.

To let you know...only reason the whole Boltus conversation went on this long is because Pat and I had a fundamental disagreement on the selection process.  I know nothing is going to change...but once again, what the hell else is there to talk about now that the season is over?  If you don't want to read the responses...don't.  It is actually pretty simple.  If Pat writes back something I disagree with, I will let him know.  If I agree with him, I will also let him know.

OK...your turn...what is new topic?

In all seriousness, the post isn't as mean or angry as it sounds.  Merry Christmas to everyone on the boards...even you SJF fans out there.

[Yanks 99]

God...that post sounds really angry.  Sorry about that FA...

[fisheralum91]

um yanks i was kidding -- didnt u notice that nice smiley that i put on there?

[fisheralum91]

merry christmas yanks