FB: Empire 8

[Jonny Utah]

But what happens if you beat that quality team? I would always rather take the shot and lose than not play and back in to the tourny. I think it would have to be a money influenced desision.

Not to mention it is Hobart and not some meiocre team. They have been very impressive in the last few years, and I would say, if they played Hobart this season they would be the favorite. Maybe only slightly, but still a favorite.

Yea you are right about beating that quaility team.  And it goes the other way as well.  If SJF loses to MUC, that loss isn't going to mean as much as a loss to Alfred.  But the win would really put you in over other pool C teams if you end up having 1 or even 2 losses.

But we have seen that the 9 game schedule has worked out and benefitted teams.  Mostly before the pool A bids I think but it all depends.

[fisheralum91]

morning boys--
any word on the schedule for fisher?

also --E8 grumblings?

ive said it before- but id hate to see it dissolve.

[realistic]

But what happens if you beat that quality team? I would always rather take the shot and lose than not play and back in to the tourny. I think it would have to be a money influenced desision.

Not to mention it is Hobart and not some meiocre team. They have been very impressive in the last few years, and I would say, if they played Hobart this season they would be the favorite. Maybe only slightly, but still a favorite.

Yea you are right about beating that quaility team.  And it goes the other way as well.  If SJF loses to MUC, that loss isn't going to mean as much as a loss to Alfred.  But the win would really put you in over other pool C teams if you end up having 1 or even 2 losses.

But we have seen that the 9 game schedule has worked out and benefitted teams.  Mostly before the pool A bids I think but it all depends.

that was basically my thinking, I really think the possible benefits outweigh the possible negatives to it.

morning boys--
any word on the schedule for fisher?

also --E8 grumblings?

ive said it before- but id hate to see it dissolve.

If that were to happen, it would just be a football thing right?  The conference as a whole (all sports) is alive and well.  I can't see the member schools for all sports wanting this to happen.

[AUKaz00]

Post # 500 for Kaz00, so I'll use it to remind everyone that the season kicks off in 3 months from today!

On Saxon Warriors!

[pumkinattack]

Hobart dropped football after my (first) sophomore year, 1997 (if I recall correctly), eliminating Hartwick from the schedule.  They've only had ten games for the sake of transitioning from CGA to Susquenhanna, playing a home and home vs. AU, since.  I recall always playing AU back in the day, but I think that's gone.  As far as backing into the playoffs, I don't think there's any year where they backed in and losing to a conference champ and making wouldn't be considered such by most (I've heard the NJAC and E8 folks make the case for their #2 each year irrespective of strength of schedule in the past). 

They're not ducking anyone, unless you guys think SJF is a patsy, but I think it's been a buget issue. 

I wish they'd play ten games, and it certainly helped in 2007, beating AU after starting off poorly, to make the playoffs at 8-2.  Lax with title IX is really a budget buster at Hobart (they went DI in 1994, just a few years before dropping the tenth football game), especially with the current, favorable and far superior to Dick Hersh, administration preferring to take the focus off athletics a little and broaden out more (specifically in community service and study abroad - something like 77% of students at Hobart study abroad, including myself).

Additionally, the field got trashed last year from the rainy U of R game and then the snowy field Lyco game, so much that they played all the lax games on the girls field hockey field.  After the football season they are doing the renovations at Boz including a new turf field, new stands, walkway and exterior to be ready for the lacrosse season this year after only getting a $4.4MM check from an older alum late this spring. 

[Jonny Utah]

Hobart dropped football after my (first) sophomore year, 1997 (if I recall correctly), eliminating Hartwick from the schedule.  They've only had ten games for the sake of transitioning from CGA to Susquenhanna, playing a home and home vs. AU, since.  I recall always playing AU back in the day, but I think that's gone.  As far as backing into the playoffs, I don't think there's any year where they backed in and losing to a conference champ and making wouldn't be considered such by most (I've heard the NJAC and E8 folks make the case for their #2 each year irrespective of strength of schedule in the past). 

They're not ducking anyone, unless you guys think SJF is a patsy, but I think it's been a buget issue. 

I wish they'd play ten games, and it certainly helped in 2007, beating AU after starting off poorly, to make the playoffs at 8-2.  Lax with title IX is really a budget buster at Hobart (they went DI in 1994, just a few years before dropping the tenth football game), especially with the current, favorable and far superior to Dick Hersh, administration preferring to take the focus off athletics a little and broaden out more (specifically in community service and study abroad - something like 77% of students at Hobart study abroad, including myself).

Additionally, the field got trashed last year from the rainy U of R game and then the snowy field Lyco game, so much that they played all the lax games on the girls field hockey field.  After the football season they are doing the renovations at Boz including a new turf field, new stands, walkway and exterior to be ready for the lacrosse season this year after only getting a $4.4MM check from an older alum late this spring. 

Its probably a stupid question, but can't Hobart find a way to avoid title 9 since 100% of the students that attend there are male anyway?  Im sure someone has made the arguement before and of course as we all know, title 9 doesn't really help womens sports anyway in a lot of cases.

But my other point wasn't that a team like Hobart is scared to play the best teams.  My point was that it doesnt make sense for teams to play all tough non league games.  You see that in all sports.  Look at Florida's non-league schedule.  There are a lot of cupcakes there.  Or North Carolina basketball, same thing.

You want to have a few games on the schedule that you have a great chance at winning.

[pumkinattack]

I was probably making a pre-emptive strike after reading hundreds of Wesley posts where the Patriots are clearly ducking them - and RPI's non-conference schedule. 

I like playing Dickinson and Carnegie, two pretty good, sometimes lower level playoff teams for the first two (plus they are excellent academic, private institutions). 

I'd love to think we could game title IX, and bring baseball back (dropped in 1995), but everything but the sheepskin is coed (some coed dorm bldgs, some single sex, classes and everything else is coed), so I suspect the case is thin (and probably been tried).  I actually don't like to trash title IX, per se, because I do think it's been a very good thing.  However, the application, specifically courts ruling that participation alone isn't the determinant, but rather $ spent on each sex is a joke and an example of judicial activism gone haywire.  Logic would suggest that there is nothing to offset a 90 man football program (on average, I realize some carry 200 and some carry 50).  I don't know if there's a DIII solution, but for DI the simple, intelligent response should be to exclude sports (football, possibly a few BB programs) that are budget neutral (either through revenues, or directed gifts) from the calculation if they are to insist on this $ for $ analysis in determining title IX compliance. 

I was reading through the Sporting News college football preview (Hobart 17th, which might be about right, losing Doyle, but having a talented backup who beat RPI this year in Vella and only other losses are D interior and FS, but one good replacement in OLaughlin who replaced an injured Sanders in 07 and won LL ROY) and no one in DI plays a decent non-conference schedule.  It's a complete joke.  The best you generally see is one decent to strong BCS program and maybe a lower BCS or semi-strong mid major plus one to two cupcakes.  I was hoping that a couple of 2 or 3 loss champions might inspire these guys to schedule a little more ambitiously.  My title IX suggestion above would probable help since you can do better with a marquee non-conf matchup plus not pay a directional state school for a spanking. 

[sjfcards]

I was probably making a pre-emptive strike after reading hundreds of Wesley posts where the Patriots are clearly ducking them - and RPI's non-conference schedule. 

I like playing Dickinson and Carnegie, two pretty good, sometimes lower level playoff teams for the first two (plus they are excellent academic, private institutions). 

I'd love to think we could game title IX, and bring baseball back (dropped in 1995), but everything but the sheepskin is coed (some coed dorm bldgs, some single sex, classes and everything else is coed), so I suspect the case is thin (and probably been tried).  I actually don't like to trash title IX, per se, because I do think it's been a very good thing.  However, the application, specifically courts ruling that participation alone isn't the determinant, but rather $ spent on each sex is a joke and an example of judicial activism gone haywire.  Logic would suggest that there is nothing to offset a 90 man football program (on average, I realize some carry 200 and some carry 50).  I don't know if there's a DIII solution, but for DI the simple, intelligent response should be to exclude sports (football, possibly a few BB programs) that are budget neutral (either through revenues, or directed gifts) from the calculation if they are to insist on this $ for $ analysis in determining title IX compliance. 

I was reading through the Sporting News college football preview (Hobart 17th, which might be about right, losing Doyle, but having a talented backup who beat RPI this year in Vella and only other losses are D interior and FS, but one good replacement in OLaughlin who replaced an injured Sanders in 07 and won LL ROY) and no one in DI plays a decent non-conference schedule.  It's a complete joke.  The best you generally see is one decent to strong BCS program and maybe a lower BCS or semi-strong mid major plus one to two cupcakes.  I was hoping that a couple of 2 or 3 loss champions might inspire these guys to schedule a little more ambitiously.  My title IX suggestion above would probable help since you can do better with a marquee non-conf matchup plus not pay a directional state school for a spanking. 

Good points all around on Title IX. I think the idea of Hobart working around Title IX would have to be related to the charters of the two schools. Are they truley two seperate enteties with two athletic departments, two AD's, Etc. I don't know the answer to the question but I think that if that were the case, they would at least have an argument to make.

I completely agree that the $ for $ comparison is ludicrous when you consider how much Football costs to maintain. There is no Female sport that requires even 50 players, not to mention 100 (or a JV team, equipment, travel, and training facilities. I can not see anyone winning an argument to exclude sports from Title IX, but what if a tiered system was set up to require a certain amount of $ invested in a sport based on how much that sport costs the School. For example for sports that require roughly the same level of fixed costs, say Womens lax and mens  Soccer (they may not be that similar but assuming they are) The school would have to commit roughly the same $ figure to the two sports. That way Football could receive more, but you are still protecting the spirit of what Title IX is all about.
Another idea would be to require the schools investment be matched $ for $, but allow the athletics endowment (The money that is specifically requested to be spent on athletics, be doled out based on the costs associated with each sport. 

[AUPepBand]

btlew has posted the following in the LL's Posting Up:

Noticed this in the Sunday Democrat and Chronicle and it has kind of flown under the radar here:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20090606/SPORTS09/906060322/1007/SPORTS/RIT+joining+Liberty+League

Interesting that it was in the paper ... but nothing on RITs site or the Liberty League site.  Maybe due to the 'pending approval' caveat that was stated in the story.

Pep has from a reliable source that indeed, the LL has agreed to admit RIT for all sports effective September 2011, "pending LL presidents' approval."

It appears Ithaca and Nazareth will remain in the E8.

[sjfcards]

Looks like we may be able to put an end to the talk about who will and won't leave the conference. I supose from an E8 fans point of view that is the lesser of two evils. I think if IC, Naz, and RIT left the E8 that would be the end of the E8 conference. I like that a team without a Football program is the one that ended up leaving. I love that Fisher will not have to go searching for a new conference for Football.

As far as overall athletics it is a tough loss. Basketball, Lacrosse, Baseball, and Soccer will be effected very negatively. Does the E8 go look for a replacement for RIT? Do they stay with 8 teams after RIT leaves? Who would be a good candidate? Do you take a team with a Football program? It is an interesting debate.

[AUPepBand]

The E8 still must seek another football affiliate, if not another all-sport member that also fields a football team, in order to keep an AQ (Pool A) bid.

Pep thinks it would be nice if ONE of the SUNY schools would defect from the NJAC and join the E8 to assure NYS institutions of at least TWO AQs from among its ranks (E8 and LL), and possibly a THIRD NY AQ with remaining NYS teams still members of the NJAC.

Brockport State....Buffalo State....Cortland State....Morrisville State....any defectors among this foursome of NY schools in a New Jersey Conference?


Come home, come home....all who are weary (of traveling to Jersey) come home!
Softly and tenderly, E8 is calling, calling, "Oh SUNYs, come home!"

[sjfcards]

I had forgetten momentarily that the E8 is still searching for a new football team to replace Norwich. Boy, I am off my game tonight. Thanks for the reminder Pep.

I think it makes total sense for a SUNY team to join the E8 for football and avoid the travel expenses and issues with the NJAC. Brockport or Cortland would both be good gets for the E8. All the teams mentioned in Peps last post are in the right area geographically, and there are some natural rivalries in there (IC Cortland, Brockport Fisher etc). However, I don't think that the E8 is willing to take on a State school as a full sports member. Not to mention a SUNY team that would be willing to leave SUNY. As a conference it probably makes more sense to take a team as a full sports member that has a football program. I don't know who would be looking, but a Kings College, a Washington and Jefferson, or a Mt. Ida would all fit the mold anyway.

[Ralph Turner]

I had forgetten momentarily that the E8 is still searching for a new football team to replace Norwich. Boy, I am off my game tonight. Thanks for the reminder Pep.

I think it makes total sense for a SUNY team to join the E8 for football and avoid the travel expenses and issues with the NJAC. Brockport or Cortland would both be good gets for the E8. All the teams mentioned in Peps last post are in the right area geographically, and there are some natural rivalries in there (IC Cortland, Brockport Fisher etc). However, I don't think that the E8 is willing to take on a State school as a full sports member. Not to mention a SUNY team that would be willing to leave SUNY. As a conference it probably makes more sense to take a team as a full sports member that has a football program. I don't know who would be looking, but a Kings College, a Washington and Jefferson, or a Mt. Ida would all fit the mold anyway.

Good evening cards.

I greatly respect your presentation of the case for the SUNYAC schools to join the E8.

Aside from travel considerations, what advantage is there for Cort or Buff or Brock to join the E8?

Please consider what schedule that they might have if they were in the NAJC (and conference games fill the last "x" number of weeks of the season) vs the schedule if they were in the E8 and the conference games fill the last "x" number of weeks of the season.

How do Cortland and Brockport guarantee a 10-game schedule?

Thanks

[AUPepBand]

Ralph,

Pep is thinking the ideal solution would be for ONE or TWO of the SUNY schools to come to the E8. Said school would have six (or seven) E8 conference contests and fill the rest with NJAC teams that would be looking to fill their schedule with a reduction of conference games from 9 to 8 or 7.

[Jonny Utah]

I had forgetten momentarily that the E8 is still searching for a new football team to replace Norwich. Boy, I am off my game tonight. Thanks for the reminder Pep.

I think it makes total sense for a SUNY team to join the E8 for football and avoid the travel expenses and issues with the NJAC. Brockport or Cortland would both be good gets for the E8. All the teams mentioned in Peps last post are in the right area geographically, and there are some natural rivalries in there (IC Cortland, Brockport Fisher etc). However, I don't think that the E8 is willing to take on a State school as a full sports member. Not to mention a SUNY team that would be willing to leave SUNY. As a conference it probably makes more sense to take a team as a full sports member that has a football program. I don't know who would be looking, but a Kings College, a Washington and Jefferson, or a Mt. Ida would all fit the mold anyway.

Good evening cards.

I greatly respect your presentation of the case for the SUNYAC schools to join the E8.

Aside from travel considerations, what advantage is there for Cort or Buff or Brock to join the E8?

Please consider what schedule that they might have if they were in the NAJC (and conference games fill the last "x" number of weeks of the season) vs the schedule if they were in the E8 and the conference games fill the last "x" number of weeks of the season.

How do Cortland and Brockport guarantee a 10-game schedule?

Thanks

I dont think Cortland has had much trouble historically finding football teams to play.  And Brockport has also played a wide variety of teams across the northeast as well.  And since NJ teams are a strain on Cortlands travel anyway, finding teams in NE or PA to play wouldn't be too much of a stretch either.  And they can still play the NJ teams as well, as those guys are always looking for extra games it seems.

And pep, are you still sure Ithaca and Naz aren't leaving just because a Rochester Paper article only mentions RIT leaving in 2 years?  I had heard from a parent of a lacrosse player at IC that he had also heard that Ithaca was leaving.  He knew as much as I did (nothing official) but did you hear something more official?