FB: Empire 8

[maxpower]

I said before camp even started that AU was my team to beat in the E8...

I think Secky separates them from the rest of the pack in the E8...

They still have to win at Ithaca, something they've never done in their history, IIRC. I'm not saying it won't happen, but good Alfred teams have lost to pretty good Bombers teams in the past. In both 2005 and 2007, Alfred came into Ithaca with a 7-1 record and walked out with double-digit losses (28-14 in '05, 42-25 in '07).

I agree GB15  it absolutely does matter, until it doesnt matter anymore....and it wont matter anymore once AU wins at Butterfield....which they havent....so it still matters.....get it? 

i like it..... +k

[msarge7]

Hey Pep, in reference to the SLU team of '76, that team was inducted into the HOF at SLU this past weekend.  That was the first SLU team to qualify for the NCAA tournament.  msarge7 was a brute of a dback weighing in at a robust 165.  The week of practice after the AU game was something else!  The funniest thing I've ever seen took place at Tuesday's practice.  BLACK TUESDAY was the only day with a full scrimmage each week.  The weather was miserable (as it had been for the AU game and about a week).  The scrimmage was lethargic and awful.  When Coach Stratford had seen enough, he ordered the whole team to the practice field behind Appleton.  He told us we were going to run 100 yd sprints.  Each time he blew the whistle we were supposed to hit the ground.  We were then supposed to get our sorry a@#es up and keep running. When he blew the whistle again, we were supposed to get up again and keep running.  It didn't take long to realize if you ran fast you could hydorplane about 10 yds at a time (thus cutting down on the running involved).  The coaches were standing in the middle of the field.  One of the senior dlineman said to "Watch this".  he stutter-stepped until he heard a whistle, then ran like hell and dove near the coaches.  He hooked the ankles of the receivers coach who promptly ended up on his back in the middle of the field.  Everyone began laughing hysterically.  Needless to say, this infuriated Coach Paul Evans (The Doctor).  When Coach Stratford could stop laughing, he told us we had 10 sec. to get to the entrance of Augsbury (about 150 yds away) and then he was giving the whistle to "The Doctor" and we were all his!  At about the far 40 yd line the whistle started screaming, but not one player stopped!  During stretching the next day, Coach Evans requested the presence of the offender to join the receivers for an "Indian run".  Coach Leet (dline coach) quietly told Coach Evans that preparation for the upcoming game meant that the perpetrator was needed with the dline.  Coach Leet then said: "Borg, never in your lifetime will you ever be able to repay me!".  To which the reply came "THANK YOU COACH!!!!!!"

[msarge7]

On another note, I'm glad to see AU's schedule has changed this year.  Ending the season with IC and SJF in back-to-back weeks was always murder.  This year AU has a bye week before the Fisher game (which Fisher always had before the AU game).  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[redswarm81]

It's plausible, sure. It's also quite unlikely. Such a situation would all but require Alfred to be otherwise perfect in the conference and for Ithaca to lose two of three against Fisher, Hartwick and Springfield. Again, it could happen, but I think the probability of it happening is not high.

That's right, I totally forgot how awesome and intimidating Ithaca has looked this year...

That's cute. I never said they did look awesome. In fact, I'm often one of few Ithaca posters who has always spoke out about how overrated Ithaca often is and how poor of a coach Welch really is.  But you've said nothing to disprove my valid point that it is unlikely that Alfred would get the AQ even with a loss at Ithaca. An IC win is tantamount to a 2-game advantage over Alfred because of tiebreaker implications. Barring some odd three-way or four-way tie, yes, it is unlikely (read: less than 50% chance) that Alfred could lose at Ithaca and still get the AQ. As I said, it's plausible, but also unlikely.

So you're confident that IC isn't going to lose 2 conference games?

Upstate,

The hypothetical GB is suggesting isn't whether IC will lose 2 conference games. It's that they'll lose two to teams OTHER than Alfred. I mean, who has Hartwick played this season? Since when does beating Norwich, Becker, Salve Regina and Morrisville State count as an impressive slate of opponents? None of those teams are any good, so why should Hartwick's 4-0 record mean anything?  Everyone in the E8 would be 4-0 if they played the four teams Hartwick did, with the possible exception of Utica, which would probably be 3-1. The only decent team Springfield played lit them up for 49 points. So even if SJF beats IC (and I think they will because they are in IC's head) either Springfield or Hartwick would need to beat Ithaca for Alfred to win it if they lost to the Bombers. Ithaca hasn't looked like world-beaters, but Springfield and Hartwick don't either.

It seems then, that the GoB hypothetical is based on the presumption that only Ithaca or Alfred can win the E8, or perhaps more narrowly, only Ithaca or Alfred can win the E8 outright, without a tiebreaker?

I'm not sure I'm on board with the thought that Utica would have a tougher time with Hartwick's first 4 opponents than all other E8 teams.  2-2 Utica's OWP is .556, 4-0 Hartwick's OWP is .250.  I value Ws a LOT more than OWPs, but Utica's lost two very close games to two teams with a combined 6-1 record.

[dlippiel]

I mean, who has Hartwick played this season? Since when does beating Norwich, Becker, Salve Regina and Morrisville State count as an impressive slate of opponents? None of those teams are any good, so why should Hartwick's 4-0 record mean anything? 

Hartwick's record means ****! Hence the reason they get no ERP consideration from most and absolutely no love on a national level. They had christ as a QB for four years and still lost to Brockport ST last year in the ECAC's when Boltus was a senior. Wick's record is meaningless in regards to the region until they beat anyone of remote substance. Now if they go ahead and beat SJF again then they will definitely deserve a look (not saying SJF is all that good either). Now here is a team dlip wished would toughen up their schedule and make a move to take the program to the next level. They almost always have decent QB's and some skill players but that means nothing when your D gives up over 60 points on multiple occasions during a season. dlip has always liked Wick but just feels with that schedule and their past, they should never even be looked at until they completely force one to look at them.

[Ithaca84]

Enlighten me on how that has an effect on this years game again?

To trot out the old argument Brockport posters were fond of back when they were good: No one on Alfred's roster has ever won at Butterfield Stadium.  In fact, no one on Alfred's roster has a father or grandfather or great grandfather that has ever won at Butterfield Stadium!

(note, please do not search my past posts to find all the times I said this argument was stupid)

Here's a post that I pulled out from the cobwebs:

Quote from: Bombers798891 on September 16, 2009, 09:17:52 pm

For example, a lot of talk might be made in a few months about how Alfred hasn't won at Butterfield in however long (or is it ever? I always forget). But half of these guys weren't there in 2007 and probably none were there in 2005. So how relevant really is that anecdote? It's quirky, and yes, I am aware that there are, sometimes, teams that just can't seem to win a certain game, in a certain place or at a certain temperature. But in the college game, I feel these matter less. Tom Secky's in charge of that offense at Alfred, and since he wasn't there at any other time, I'm not going to be put at ease by a "Yeah, but they never win here."

Well, since you were wondering, Pep went to the "record books." When Pep hits the record books, you know it's been awhile. All of AU's wins at Ithaca came before it was called Butterfield Stadium. In fact, most probably came before South Hill Field was built....anyone know when the Bombers first called that home? But here are Alfred's wins (and ties) at Ithaca:

1938--Alfred and Ithaca played to a 20-20 tie
1951--Alfred 33, Ithaca 0
1953--Alfred 41, Ithaca 6
1955--Alfred 26, Ithaca 0
1961--Alfred 14, Ithaca 7
1976--Alfred 3, Ithaca 3 (tie)...Pep was there. Pep thinks Lois described it in Wasn't That Fun? as the most boring game ever witnessed. Funny thing about that, a week or so later, the Saxons handed then-powerful St. Lawrence its lone loss that year, a 3-2 Saxon win at Canton! Pep listened to that one on the radio.
1982--Alfred 20, Ithaca 7

I believe 1958 is when South Hill Field became home to the bombers as well as SOuth Hill location in general the college. Prior to that date the field was located where Ithaca High school stands today, and the college was located downtown. Not totally sure of the 1958 date, but thats the year my dad graduated from IC and he was on the first IC team to play there.

[gobombers15]

It's plausible, sure. It's also quite unlikely. Such a situation would all but require Alfred to be otherwise perfect in the conference and for Ithaca to lose two of three against Fisher, Hartwick and Springfield. Again, it could happen, but I think the probability of it happening is not high.

That's right, I totally forgot how awesome and intimidating Ithaca has looked this year...

That's cute. I never said they did look awesome. In fact, I'm often one of few Ithaca posters who has always spoke out about how overrated Ithaca often is and how poor of a coach Welch really is.  But you've said nothing to disprove my valid point that it is unlikely that Alfred would get the AQ even with a loss at Ithaca. An IC win is tantamount to a 2-game advantage over Alfred because of tiebreaker implications. Barring some odd three-way or four-way tie, yes, it is unlikely (read: less than 50% chance) that Alfred could lose at Ithaca and still get the AQ. As I said, it's plausible, but also unlikely.

So you're confident that IC isn't going to lose 2 conference games?

Upstate,

The hypothetical GB is suggesting isn't whether IC will lose 2 conference games. It's that they'll lose two to teams OTHER than Alfred. I mean, who has Hartwick played this season? Since when does beating Norwich, Becker, Salve Regina and Morrisville State count as an impressive slate of opponents? None of those teams are any good, so why should Hartwick's 4-0 record mean anything?  Everyone in the E8 would be 4-0 if they played the four teams Hartwick did, with the possible exception of Utica, which would probably be 3-1. The only decent team Springfield played lit them up for 49 points. So even if SJF beats IC (and I think they will because they are in IC's head) either Springfield or Hartwick would need to beat Ithaca for Alfred to win it if they lost to the Bombers. Ithaca hasn't looked like world-beaters, but Springfield and Hartwick don't either.

It seems then, that the GoB hypothetical is based on the presumption that only Ithaca or Alfred can win the E8, or perhaps more narrowly, only Ithaca or Alfred can win the E8 outright, without a tiebreaker?

I'm not sure I'm on board with the thought that Utica would have a tougher time with Hartwick's first 4 opponents than all other E8 teams.  2-2 Utica's OWP is .556, 4-0 Hartwick's OWP is .250.  I value Ws a LOT more than OWPs, but Utica's lost two very close games to two teams with a combined 6-1 record.

That would be incorrect. Fisher could win it outright, as well. My statement is limited to my belief that it is extremely unlikely Alfred could win the conference without beating IC.

[Bombers798891]

It's plausible, sure. It's also quite unlikely. Such a situation would all but require Alfred to be otherwise perfect in the conference and for Ithaca to lose two of three against Fisher, Hartwick and Springfield. Again, it could happen, but I think the probability of it happening is not high.

That's right, I totally forgot how awesome and intimidating Ithaca has looked this year...

That's cute. I never said they did look awesome. In fact, I'm often one of few Ithaca posters who has always spoke out about how overrated Ithaca often is and how poor of a coach Welch really is.  But you've said nothing to disprove my valid point that it is unlikely that Alfred would get the AQ even with a loss at Ithaca. An IC win is tantamount to a 2-game advantage over Alfred because of tiebreaker implications. Barring some odd three-way or four-way tie, yes, it is unlikely (read: less than 50% chance) that Alfred could lose at Ithaca and still get the AQ. As I said, it's plausible, but also unlikely.

So you're confident that IC isn't going to lose 2 conference games?

Upstate,

The hypothetical GB is suggesting isn't whether IC will lose 2 conference games. It's that they'll lose two to teams OTHER than Alfred. I mean, who has Hartwick played this season? Since when does beating Norwich, Becker, Salve Regina and Morrisville State count as an impressive slate of opponents? None of those teams are any good, so why should Hartwick's 4-0 record mean anything?  Everyone in the E8 would be 4-0 if they played the four teams Hartwick did, with the possible exception of Utica, which would probably be 3-1. The only decent team Springfield played lit them up for 49 points. So even if SJF beats IC (and I think they will because they are in IC's head) either Springfield or Hartwick would need to beat Ithaca for Alfred to win it if they lost to the Bombers. Ithaca hasn't looked like world-beaters, but Springfield and Hartwick don't either.

It seems then, that the GoB hypothetical is based on the presumption that only Ithaca or Alfred can win the E8, or perhaps more narrowly, only Ithaca or Alfred can win the E8 outright, without a tiebreaker?

I'm not sure I'm on board with the thought that Utica would have a tougher time with Hartwick's first 4 opponents than all other E8 teams.  2-2 Utica's OWP is .556, 4-0 Hartwick's OWP is .250.  I value Ws a LOT more than OWPs, but Utica's lost two very close games to two teams with a combined 6-1 record.

Hey, I put the possible in italics haha. My general point was this: Hartwick's played a bunch of crappy teams, and until they do more than schedule a glorified scrimmage, I'm not going to pay attention to their record

[dlippiel]

It's plausible, sure. It's also quite unlikely. Such a situation would all but require Alfred to be otherwise perfect in the conference and for Ithaca to lose two of three against Fisher, Hartwick and Springfield. Again, it could happen, but I think the probability of it happening is not high.

That's right, I totally forgot how awesome and intimidating Ithaca has looked this year...

That's cute. I never said they did look awesome. In fact, I'm often one of few Ithaca posters who has always spoke out about how overrated Ithaca often is and how poor of a coach Welch really is.  But you've said nothing to disprove my valid point that it is unlikely that Alfred would get the AQ even with a loss at Ithaca. An IC win is tantamount to a 2-game advantage over Alfred because of tiebreaker implications. Barring some odd three-way or four-way tie, yes, it is unlikely (read: less than 50% chance) that Alfred could lose at Ithaca and still get the AQ. As I said, it's plausible, but also unlikely.

So you're confident that IC isn't going to lose 2 conference games?

Upstate,

The hypothetical GB is suggesting isn't whether IC will lose 2 conference games. It's that they'll lose two to teams OTHER than Alfred. I mean, who has Hartwick played this season? Since when does beating Norwich, Becker, Salve Regina and Morrisville State count as an impressive slate of opponents? None of those teams are any good, so why should Hartwick's 4-0 record mean anything?  Everyone in the E8 would be 4-0 if they played the four teams Hartwick did, with the possible exception of Utica, which would probably be 3-1. The only decent team Springfield played lit them up for 49 points. So even if SJF beats IC (and I think they will because they are in IC's head) either Springfield or Hartwick would need to beat Ithaca for Alfred to win it if they lost to the Bombers. Ithaca hasn't looked like world-beaters, but Springfield and Hartwick don't either.

It seems then, that the GoB hypothetical is based on the presumption that only Ithaca or Alfred can win the E8, or perhaps more narrowly, only Ithaca or Alfred can win the E8 outright, without a tiebreaker?

I'm not sure I'm on board with the thought that Utica would have a tougher time with Hartwick's first 4 opponents than all other E8 teams.  2-2 Utica's OWP is .556, 4-0 Hartwick's OWP is .250.  I value Ws a LOT more than OWPs, but Utica's lost two very close games to two teams with a combined 6-1 record.

Hey, I put the possible in italics haha. My general point was this: Hartwick's played a bunch of crappy teams, and until they do more than schedule a glorified scrimmage, I'm not going to pay attention to their record

+k Bombers this statement sums up Wick quite well. Once they begin conference play we will know a lot more about about them and their potential and/or lack there of.

[Bombers798891]

It's plausible, sure. It's also quite unlikely. Such a situation would all but require Alfred to be otherwise perfect in the conference and for Ithaca to lose two of three against Fisher, Hartwick and Springfield. Again, it could happen, but I think the probability of it happening is not high.

That's right, I totally forgot how awesome and intimidating Ithaca has looked this year...

That's cute. I never said they did look awesome. In fact, I'm often one of few Ithaca posters who has always spoke out about how overrated Ithaca often is and how poor of a coach Welch really is.  But you've said nothing to disprove my valid point that it is unlikely that Alfred would get the AQ even with a loss at Ithaca. An IC win is tantamount to a 2-game advantage over Alfred because of tiebreaker implications. Barring some odd three-way or four-way tie, yes, it is unlikely (read: less than 50% chance) that Alfred could lose at Ithaca and still get the AQ. As I said, it's plausible, but also unlikely.

So you're confident that IC isn't going to lose 2 conference games?

Upstate,

The hypothetical GB is suggesting isn't whether IC will lose 2 conference games. It's that they'll lose two to teams OTHER than Alfred. I mean, who has Hartwick played this season? Since when does beating Norwich, Becker, Salve Regina and Morrisville State count as an impressive slate of opponents? None of those teams are any good, so why should Hartwick's 4-0 record mean anything?  Everyone in the E8 would be 4-0 if they played the four teams Hartwick did, with the possible exception of Utica, which would probably be 3-1. The only decent team Springfield played lit them up for 49 points. So even if SJF beats IC (and I think they will because they are in IC's head) either Springfield or Hartwick would need to beat Ithaca for Alfred to win it if they lost to the Bombers. Ithaca hasn't looked like world-beaters, but Springfield and Hartwick don't either.

It seems then, that the GoB hypothetical is based on the presumption that only Ithaca or Alfred can win the E8, or perhaps more narrowly, only Ithaca or Alfred can win the E8 outright, without a tiebreaker?

I'm not sure I'm on board with the thought that Utica would have a tougher time with Hartwick's first 4 opponents than all other E8 teams.  2-2 Utica's OWP is .556, 4-0 Hartwick's OWP is .250.  I value Ws a LOT more than OWPs, but Utica's lost two very close games to two teams with a combined 6-1 record.

That would be incorrect. Fisher could win it outright, as well. My statement is limited to my belief that it is extremely unlikely Alfred could win the conference without beating IC.

Look, there's only five conference games for each team. It's going to be extremely hard for ANYONE to win the conference over a team they lost to because that team would then need to lose at least 2 of their remaining 4 games in conference. With so few conference games, there's just not as many opportunities for teams to get tripped up.

I mean, would Ithaca win the conference if they lost to Alfred? Probably not, because what two teams of the SJF, Hartwick, Utica trio are going to take out the Saxons?

I mean, sure, in some crazy bizzaro tiebreaker, all bets are off. But if we're looking at it strictly as a two-team situation, it's highly unlikely that the team losing the H2H will come out on top of the overall standings.

[AUKaz00]

Look, there's only five conference games for each team. It's going to be extremely hard for ANYONE to win the conference over a team they lost to because that team would then need to lose at least 2 of their remaining 4 games in conference. With so few conference games, there's just not as many opportunities for teams to get tripped up.

Honestly, that's been the case in the E6 over the past few years.  Who was Norwich beating that was contending for the crown?  That was an automatic win for the contenders and limited the permutations for tie-breakers and one loss teams winning the league outright.

[BoSox0322]

I said before camp even started that AU was my team to beat in the E8...

I think Secky separates them from the rest of the pack in the E8...

They still have to win at Ithaca, something they've never done in their history, IIRC. I'm not saying it won't happen, but good Alfred teams have lost to pretty good Bombers teams in the past. In both 2005 and 2007, Alfred came into Ithaca with a 7-1 record and walked out with double-digit losses (28-14 in '05, 42-25 in '07).

Enlighten me on how that has an effect on this years game again?

The same way that every red sox season was effected for 86 years until 2004

[BoSox0322]

I mean, who has Hartwick played this season? Since when does beating Norwich, Becker, Salve Regina and Morrisville State count as an impressive slate of opponents? None of those teams are any good, so why should Hartwick's 4-0 record mean anything? 

Hartwick's record means ****! Hence the reason they get no ERP consideration from most and absolutely no love on a national level. They had christ as a QB for four years and still lost to Brockport ST last year in the ECAC's when Boltus was a senior. Wick's record is meaningless in regards to the region until they beat anyone of remote substance. Now if they go ahead and beat SJF again then they will definitely deserve a look (not saying SJF is all that good either). Now here is a team dlip wished would toughen up their schedule and make a move to take the program to the next level. They almost always have decent QB's and some skill players but that means nothing when your D gives up over 60 points on multiple occasions during a season. dlip has always liked Wick but just feels with that schedule and their past, they should never even be looked at until they completely force one to look at them.

I think thats pretty much how it goes?  Most people complain about a weak schedule and Hartwick wont get any credit until they beat Ithaca or Fisher (recent years Fisher) or both... and even when they do that most people on here act like its a fluke instead of giving them credit... its no secret

[dlippiel]

I mean, who has Hartwick played this season? Since when does beating Norwich, Becker, Salve Regina and Morrisville State count as an impressive slate of opponents? None of those teams are any good, so why should Hartwick's 4-0 record mean anything? 

Hartwick's record means ****! Hence the reason they get no ERP consideration from most and absolutely no love on a national level. They had christ as a QB for four years and still lost to Brockport ST last year in the ECAC's when Boltus was a senior. Wick's record is meaningless in regards to the region until they beat anyone of remote substance. Now if they go ahead and beat SJF again then they will definitely deserve a look (not saying SJF is all that good either). Now here is a team dlip wished would toughen up their schedule and make a move to take the program to the next level. They almost always have decent QB's and some skill players but that means nothing when your D gives up over 60 points on multiple occasions during a season. dlip has always liked Wick but just feels with that schedule and their past, they should never even be looked at until they completely force one to look at them.

I think thats pretty much how it goes?  Most people complain about a weak schedule and Hartwick wont get any credit until they beat Ithaca or Fisher (recent years Fisher) or both... and even when they do that most people on here act like its a fluke instead of giving them credit... its no secret

It's always weird with Wick and how they match-up against conference foes. All dlip knows is he often thought to himself the past four years, "...imagine if they had a solid ****ing defense to back up Boltus and Phelan?" now that would have been interesting. yet giving up the points they did on occasions would cause anyone to consider W's flukes ya know.

[BoSox0322]

I mean, who has Hartwick played this season? Since when does beating Norwich, Becker, Salve Regina and Morrisville State count as an impressive slate of opponents? None of those teams are any good, so why should Hartwick's 4-0 record mean anything? 

Hartwick's record means ****! Hence the reason they get no ERP consideration from most and absolutely no love on a national level. They had christ as a QB for four years and still lost to Brockport ST last year in the ECAC's when Boltus was a senior. Wick's record is meaningless in regards to the region until they beat anyone of remote substance. Now if they go ahead and beat SJF again then they will definitely deserve a look (not saying SJF is all that good either). Now here is a team dlip wished would toughen up their schedule and make a move to take the program to the next level. They almost always have decent QB's and some skill players but that means nothing when your D gives up over 60 points on multiple occasions during a season. dlip has always liked Wick but just feels with that schedule and their past, they should never even be looked at until they completely force one to look at them.

I think thats pretty much how it goes?  Most people complain about a weak schedule and Hartwick wont get any credit until they beat Ithaca or Fisher (recent years Fisher) or both... and even when they do that most people on here act like its a fluke instead of giving them credit... its no secret

It's always weird with Wick and how they match-up against conference foes. All dlip knows is he often thought to himself the past four years, "...imagine if they had a solid ****ing defense to back up Boltus and Phelan?" now that would have been interesting. yet giving up the points they did on occasions would cause anyone to consider W's flukes ya know.

maybe if it only happened once...