FB: Empire 8

[pumkinattack]

Agreed.  Case in point, Hobart's Dickinson game has been a matchup for about 20 years, but it's a perfect fit.  Similar schools in almost every respect (except we have a lake and they are in the middle of nowhere route 81 PA) and Dickinson is always at the top of the CC, winning the conference every other or every third year.  It's not like playing UMHB or MUC, but it's a tough game and it's almost always helpful to Hobart (even when they lose, like in 2007). 

That's why the SJF-Hobart home and home (and I'd bet that's all it ends up being) will be a nice matchup (like Union-IC).  If the winner can finish second in their conference they're probably sitting pretty for a pool C (obviously the ideal is, for me, both teams winning their conference). 

[AUPepBand]

Is the LL football season over?

We just assumed since everyone has written off any and every LL football team (and east region team for that matter), that they were just going to cancel the rest of the season.  It's either that or they're going to import 8 teams from the South/ North, and export all of the east teams out of region.

I wouldn't look at the top 25 and count the East out yet. This ain't the BCS.

Said with tongue firmly planted in cheek. That's the point, looking at the Top 25, you'd think that they consider the east Division IV.

Pep contends that D3football.com voters don't have a "traditional" East power, a program that is in the NCAAs year-in and year-out, that is leading the East this season. Were the records switched and Ithaca were 7-0 right now and Alfred 5-3, the Bombers would be right up there. Heck, weren't they as high as #8 early this season? By now, if undefeated, they certainly would have made moves toward the top four or five. Hobart has certainly been there and was getting lots of early season votes. Same could be said for St. John Fisher. Alfred and Albright have not been on the national scene...Del Valley, with a solid resume, has, and despite one loss, gets more votes than the A-teams.

Same could be said for the one-time "Beast of the East" Rowan. Had Rowan beaten Cortland (and Kean) this year, they'd certainly be pretty high on the list.

Another thing to consider...the bulk of D3 football programs ARE in the East Region, which makes recruiting a dogfight (with apologies to Michael Vick). D3 programs in other parts of the country, Pep would theorize, have less competition in recruiting top talent.

But were an East Region team to just go and win out.....including the Stagg Bowl, perhaps NCAA selection officials would look upon the East Region a bit differently, no?

Just some rambling here from Pep....

On Saxon Warriors!


NOTE: Pep posted this over on the LL thread, but since noticed it's probably more appropriate over here, since they are talking baseball.

[Yanks 99]

I think the argument that someone from the East should “beat someone” before they earn a #1 regional seed is crazy.  You cannot look at the last several years where either Mount Union has won the east region (2008 and 2007 easily), or beaten our regional champion in the semis (St. John Fisher 26-14 in 2006 and Rowan 19-7 game in 2005) and simply say we cannot compete with the some of the better teams out of region. 

Using Mount Union as a measuring stick as to whether or not the East can compete on the national level is absolutely crazy.  Simply put…Mount Union beats everyone…most of the time in devastating fashion.  Their record over the last 10 plus years is an unbelievable 145-5!!!
 
Because this isn’t Division I football, with a lot of schools traveling all over the country to play each other, you cannot simply say Alfred or Albright doesn’t deserve a #1 seed in the East simply because Mount Union beat up on Cortland and SJF in the regional finals the last few years.  How do we know Alfred couldn’t compete/win with UWW or Ohio Northern?  Because MUC beat up on these guys two years ago?  That is a terrible argument…as MUC beats up everyone.

Bottom line…they should keep MUC out of the East if the East has a representative worthy of a #1 seed.  If Alfred runs the table, they should get the number one seed.  Subjective d3football.com Top 25 polls are meaningless.  How will the East know if it is as good as the rest of the country if the easy answer is to simply put MUC in the East and we never get the chance to play any other teams?

[theoriginalupstate]

Yeah, I think DVC could be that good, but I also think you need to be undefeated.  Although, didn't MUC get a #1 seed with a loss (to ONU or someone like that) one year?  I guess the bottom line is that its going to be subjective notwithstanding the veneer of a objective system and that's that. 

its just that subjective...last year more than ticked pbr off and showed its not like ncaa hoops in the seedings...dvc played a very difficult schedule last year and in pbr's view was not rewarded for it w/ getting an at large bid. showed to me that you dont need to play top ranked teams, should play mid tier teams and win those games looks much better on the resume than playing top ranked teams and a loss.  sure one can point to the fdu loss  but imho the games played against top ranked teams more than over came that loss.

Agreed...

In the future I sincerely doubt you'll be seeing any East Region teams going outside of the region to play tough opponents...

[Pat Coleman]

Yeah, I think DVC could be that good, but I also think you need to be undefeated.  Although, didn't MUC get a #1 seed with a loss (to ONU or someone like that) one year? 

Mount Union was the No. 3 seed that year.

[AUKaz00]

In respect to MUC, you can make the argument that it isn't "fair" for any undefeated team (East, North, or other) to have to face them prior to the national semis, but we aren't playing for good sportsmanship trophies it's to win it all and that requires beating the big boys.  Sure we'd all love to get to see our team play for one more week, but MUC needs to play someone each week during the playoffs and I'm just hoping for the chance to drive out to Alliance with Pep this year and see how Manzer, Hendrix and Secky stack up against the nation's best.  That's still a LONG ways off, but I'm excited I can think about the possibility this late in the season.

[pumkinattack]

Yeah, I think DVC could be that good, but I also think you need to be undefeated.  Although, didn't MUC get a #1 seed with a loss (to ONU or someone like that) one year? 

Mount Union was the No. 3 seed that year.

Thanks Pat.  You saved me the effort of looking it up (which may not have happened anyway). 

[pumkinattack]

In respect to MUC, you can make the argument that it isn't "fair" for any undefeated team (East, North, or other) to have to face them prior to the national semis, but we aren't playing for good sportsmanship trophies it's to win it all and that requires beating the big boys.  Sure we'd all love to get to see our team play for one more week, but MUC needs to play someone each week during the playoffs and I'm just hoping for the chance to drive out to Alliance with Pep this year and see how Manzer, Hendrix and Secky stack up against the nation's best.  That's still a LONG ways off, but I'm excited I can think about the possibility this late in the season.

Yeah, I totally agree with this.  I was psyched to see how Hobart would do last year.  I knew our offense struggled and it was without a couple of starters, but we had some great talents on defense (which some of the gracious MUC posters attested to) and I wanted to see how those guys would stack up.  The score at the end of the game was typically lopsided, but the D held its own and just got worn down late in the 3rd quarter.

It's just the system and flawed logic coupled with a lack of transparenct that makes it frustrating for me more than the coutcome.   

[union89]

I don't think the NCAA can say that because geography won't always permit.

If geography does not permit than doesn't this make more of a case for making the seeds regional? ****

I think the problem for the east is that, even assuming Alfred or Albright are in the 15-20 range nationally, we don't have a team in the top 10-15, so it looks like crying.  I'd be really interested to see what the committee would do if we had a team with a profile like Monmouth, Case Western or Wittenburg (e.g. kind of in that 8-15 range). 

also look at dvc ranked at #20 if they beat albright this weekend their only loss is to #3 wesley. to me dvc should be ranked in the 10-15 range if they were to beat albright. with a road win over kean and also beating johns hopkins one can also make a pretty strong case for them factoring in as well

I see what you are saying....that loss still knocks them down even though it is to a team like Wesley.

[Bombers798891]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Alfred not getting a #1 seed. To me, they've topped one good team this season: Springfield. Everyone else in the E8's got three losses, and there's a pretty decent chance they all wind up with four. Heck, three of them could have FIVE.

Undefeated records look pretty, but if they aren't based on beating good teams, who cares? Honestly, if we were to look at the Top 25, what other team couldn't pull off a 9-0 based on what we know now about how weak the E8 has been? I don't follow other conferences, so I don't know about the other teams, and I've been supportive of Alfred in the past, but 9-0 alone does not automatically make you a dominant team.

[Pat Coleman]

Well, also because it wasn't exactly a close game. 31-13 at Del Val and one Del Val TD was a 100-yard FG return with under two minutes left. It suggests there's a bit of distance between the two teams.

[dlippiel]

To dlip it seems as if things are starting to clear up regarding the importation issue. If the NCAA is saying that they want the best four teams in the nation (obviously one can disagree with who they choose) to get the top four seeds in to tourney, regardless of ****ing location, than that would be fine and totally understandable in dlip's mind. Yet, since there are travel restrictions and on top of that the teams in, for example, the Eastern Bracket are ALL ****ING eastern teams with the exception of one wouldn't it just make sense to give a top seed to the best team in that region? Wouldn't that make it ****ing easier and less confusing. Of course the Eastern fans are whinning, who the **** wouldn't, when there is not clear cut proof of some Northern/Western/Southern undefeated team (taking out UWW and MUC of course) is better than an undefeated Alfred or Albright. The best team will win anyway and if a top team in the North/South/West (aside from MUC and UWW) is undefeated or with one loss why should they get ahead of Alfred or an undefeated Eastern team. If they want to win or get a # one seed shouldn't they have to do the same as the East, beat MUC, who happens to be intheir region. It's all relative and interpretted differently. Plus we know in our economic times teams cannot afford to travel all over the ****in place to play each other in the regular season so in some ways if a team goes undefeated and wins a conference like the E8 that is a top ten conference what the **** else can they do? Beat MUC, fine but that team in MUC's own ****in region should have to beat them first.

[Yanks 99]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Alfred not getting a #1 seed. To me, they've topped one good team this season: Springfield. Everyone else in the E8's got three losses, and there's a pretty decent chance they all wind up with four. Heck, three of them could have FIVE.

Undefeated records look pretty, but if they aren't based on beating good teams, who cares? Honestly, if we were to look at the Top 25, what other team couldn't pull off a 9-0 based on what we know now about how weak the E8 has been? I don't follow other conferences, so I don't know about the other teams, and I've been supportive of Alfred in the past, but 9-0 alone does not automatically make you a dominant team.

Undefeated records may not be the do all, say all...but we cannot say the E8 is not strong this year simply because the usual players (Ithaca, St. John Fisher) are not at the top of the list.  Traditionally, the E8 is very strong...and I think it is this year as well from top to bottom.

Personally...I don't even look at the Top 25, or any of the national polls, as a gauge of how good teams are.  So few teams play other teams from out of region.  It is completely subjective and not a good measuring stick on who is better then who.  We all know who the top 2-3 teams are, as they seem to be in/around the final 4 every year.  But you cannot simply say that Wesley is better then Alfred because Wesley is ranked #3 in the D3 Football poll and Alfred is "only" #25.

[Pat Coleman]

To dlip it seems as if things are starting to clear up regarding the importation issue. If the NCAA is saying that they want the best four teams in the nation (obviously one can disagree with who they choose) to get the top four seeds in to tourney, regardless of ****ing location, than that would be fine and totally understandable in dlip's mind. Yet, since there are travel restrictions and on top of that the teams in, for example, the Eastern Bracket are ALL ****ING eastern teams with the exception of one wouldn't it just make sense to give a top seed to the best team in that region?

No. It makes sense to give the top seed to the best team in that eight-team cluster of teams. If that cluster can include Mount Union without causing travel issues, then so be it.

[Bombers798891]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Alfred not getting a #1 seed. To me, they've topped one good team this season: Springfield. Everyone else in the E8's got three losses, and there's a pretty decent chance they all wind up with four. Heck, three of them could have FIVE.

Undefeated records look pretty, but if they aren't based on beating good teams, who cares? Honestly, if we were to look at the Top 25, what other team couldn't pull off a 9-0 based on what we know now about how weak the E8 has been? I don't follow other conferences, so I don't know about the other teams, and I've been supportive of Alfred in the past, but 9-0 alone does not automatically make you a dominant team.

Undefeated records may not be the do all, say all...but we cannot say the E8 is not strong this year simply because the usual players (Ithaca, St. John Fisher) are not at the top of the list.  Traditionally, the E8 is very strong...and I think it is this year as well from top to bottom.

Strong from top to bottom? Please.

Utica's wins are over teams with a combined 3-23 record.
Hartwick's? Their wins are over teams with a 14-30 record
IC? Theirs are over teams with a 13-27 record
Fisher?  Theirs are over teams with a 12-18 record

Total: 42-98

Ithaca is not a strong team. Anyone's who's watched them play this year knows that. They've lost to the only three good teams they've played all season. They'll probably go 5-5 this year.

Has Utica made strides? Yes. Are they tougher than they used to be? Yes. They're still 3-5, and while most of the losses are close, "strong" teams win some of those games. Like Ithaca, they've lost every game they've played against a good team. They've beaten three terrible teams

Same thing with Fisher. Who's their best win? Ithaca? Depending on your view of Salisbury in relation to Ithaca, they've lost the three toughest games they've played.

Hartwick? Norwich is 6-3, although I have no clue how good their conference is.

What's the best OOC win by one of those teams? Wick over Norwich or Salve Regina probably. And it's hard to consider Norwich a "true" OOC game.

Springfield and Alfred are the only two teams who even merit consideration for being above-average in my opinion. The rest are teams who do exactly what average teams do: Beat terrible teams and few others