FB: Empire 8

[pumkinattack]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

I can see how that could be construed/interpreted, but I don't think that is what this necessarily means.  What it means is that we don't know how good AU or Springfield are, not because of the league, but the lack of a convincing OOC win.  Look back to the E8 in 2006 and some of the OOC wins and compare them to AU and Springfield this year.  I wish Bart and AU had played, and if AU had won, it would help their cause quite a bit, but it's the lack of any defining OOC win by any member of the conference.  Even better would be a decent road win in OOC.  

Somone else was dropping OOC win %, but St John's beat two WIAC schools one of whom is 3-5 and had OOC wins against two other schools with a 9-8 record and and the other is 4-4 with two OOC wins themselves (I'm not getting into any debate questioning the WIAC even if I don't know how good they really are overall).  Linfield's got wins over Hardin Simmons (somewhat down this year at 5-4, but better than anyone on AU or Springfield's OOC schedule) and S Oregon.  Thomas More has a road win over 3-5 John Carroll (using the SJF rule that's 3-4) and plays 8-0 Mt. St. Joseph later this year (on the road).  

[Yanks 99]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

Linfield's got wins over Hardin Simmons (somewhat down this year at 5-4, but better than anyone on AU or Springfield's OOC schedule) and S Oregon.   

Better because of their record, or better simply because it is Hardin Simmons?  You cannot simply say that they are better then anyone on AU or SC's OOC schedule simply because it is HS...I mean, at 5-4, how good are they really?  Maybe HS is having a "down" year like IC is this year (not that 5-3 is down...just not the norm for IC).

[Bombers798891]

You can fire off every meaningless stat on earth

If W-L record is a meaningless stat, then Alfred and SC look even less impressive.

Or do you think W-L record is the best way to determine how teams have done this season?

Like the teams that E8 teams have beaten?

...but the bottom line is if SJF and IC were at the top of this list...with a pretty good "normal" 3rd place team (SC or Alfred)...you would be saying how strong the E8 is this year.

What's worse, meaningless stats, or meaningless conjecture?

You cannot ignore a 20-4 OOC record as a whole...with the "worst" loss being SJF against Salisbury.   The other 3 weren't that bad (SJF against MUC should barely count, UC's 3 point loss to RPI after missing two short field goals in the fourth quarter, and IC's last minute loss to Union.)

Sounds like another bitter IC poster angry about the way the year has turned out...

Ok, you're right that the losses were tough. But then you ignore the fact that almost all of the wins were over bad teams. Quality of opponents matter. It's not JUST about the record.

St. Lawrence? Anna Maria? Widener? Becker? Castleton State? Morrisville State? Frostburg? FDU-Florham? Mass Dartmouth? Rochester?

I mean, is there a single win in those 20 against a good team there? The best OOC win is probably by Hartwick over Norwich, who is 6-3.

I hear what you are saying...but show me ANY other conference with a better OOC record as a whole...or a team from anywhere in the country whose OOC opponents winning percentage is off the charts.  My guess is you may find one or two...but not many.  To give you an idea, St. John's OOC opponents winning percentage is .438, Linfield's is .500, and Thomas More's is .214.  All three of these teams are ranked in the top 11...and none of their OOC opponents winning percentage is that fantastic.

Yes, the E8 % is amazing compared to other conferences, but the question I always ask myself is this: If we switched the schedules, would the other conferences be able to put up a similar record? That's kind of my rationale. I think most conferences, if they had the same OOC slate, would have a similar record as the E8.

It's the same reason I'm not sold on Alfred as a #1 seed. It's not that the 9-0 isn't impressive. It's just that I believe almost any team in the Top 25 could go 9-0 with that schedule. It's just not that tough. It's eight teams that will miss the NCAA's and one that may sneak in, (Springfield, if they beat Fisher.)

Pumpkin brought up some good points when he emphasized some wins over better OOC teams in recent years. Ithaca's 2008 wins over Cortland and Lycoming are two other examples. It's not the quantity of wins I'm not sold on, it's the quality. I just don't see it--from anyone--in the E8 this year.

[SJFF82]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

I can see how that could be construed/interpreted, but I don't think that is what this necessarily means.  What it means is that we don't know how good AU or Springfield are, not because of the league, but the lack of a convincing OOC win.  Look back to the E8 in 2006 and some of the OOC wins and compare them to AU and Springfield this year.  I wish Bart and AU had played, and if AU had won, it would help their cause quite a bit, but it's the lack of any defining OOC win by any member of the conference.  Even better would be a decent road win in OOC.  That's somewhat suspect, but they are in a conference that's performed pretty well this year.  

Somone else was dropping OOC win %, but St John's beat two WIAC schools one of whom is 3-5 and had OOC wins against two other schools with a 9-8 record and and the other is 4-4 with two OOC wins themselves (I'm not getting into any debate questioning the WIAC even if I don't know how good they really are overall).  Linfield's got wins over Hardin Simmons (somewhat down this year at 5-4, but better than anyone on AU or Springfield's OOC schedule) and S Oregon.  Thomas More has a road win over 3-5 John Carroll (using the SJF rule that's 3-4) and plays 8-0 Mt. St. Joseph later this year (on the road).  

Arguments always sound better without the facts.

What OOC wins did SJF 2006 have that made them any better than this AU team?  They beat Kings, Mt. Ida, Brockport (4-6 that year) and ****, I forgot the 4th and I am too lazy to go back and look again, but it was noone trust me.

Somebody else said it, but to reiterate....the bottom line of this debate is that AU is not getting the credit they deserve because they havent "been there, done that" yet, like SJF and IC.  Its funny, because they are actually being treated like Hartwick right now, just in a nicer way due to the nature of their supporters on these boards.  Its how Fisher was treated on here when they first climbed the E8 ranks.

If SJF or IC were sitting at 6 or 7-0 right now, there would be absolutely no talk of the weakness of the conference etc.

Look, AU beat SJF, whose record isnt sexy because they were playing tough OOC games.  IC isnt IC this year, but that is not AU's fault.  I mean, does AU have to lose to IC to make their loss look good, or do they beat IC this week and take their undefeated record and listen to all else call it a down year in the conference?  They lose either way.

[Yanks 99]

You can fire off every meaningless stat on earth

If W-L record is a meaningless stat, then Alfred and SC look even less impressive.

Or do you think W-L record is the best way to determine how teams have done this season?

Like the teams that E8 teams have beaten?

...but the bottom line is if SJF and IC were at the top of this list...with a pretty good "normal" 3rd place team (SC or Alfred)...you would be saying how strong the E8 is this year.

What's worse, meaningless stats, or meaningless conjecture?

You cannot ignore a 20-4 OOC record as a whole...with the "worst" loss being SJF against Salisbury.   The other 3 weren't that bad (SJF against MUC should barely count, UC's 3 point loss to RPI after missing two short field goals in the fourth quarter, and IC's last minute loss to Union.)

Sounds like another bitter IC poster angry about the way the year has turned out...

Ok, you're right that the losses were tough. But then you ignore the fact that almost all of the wins were over bad teams. Quality of opponents matter. It's not JUST about the record.

St. Lawrence? Anna Maria? Widener? Becker? Castleton State? Morrisville State? Frostburg? FDU-Florham? Mass Dartmouth? Rochester?

I mean, is there a single win in those 20 against a good team there? The best OOC win is probably by Hartwick over Norwich, who is 6-3.

I hear what you are saying...but show me ANY other conference with a better OOC record as a whole...or a team from anywhere in the country whose OOC opponents winning percentage is off the charts.  My guess is you may find one or two...but not many.  To give you an idea, St. John's OOC opponents winning percentage is .438, Linfield's is .500, and Thomas More's is .214.  All three of these teams are ranked in the top 11...and none of their OOC opponents winning percentage is that fantastic.

Yes, the E8 % is amazing compared to other conferences, but the question I always ask myself is this: If we switched the schedules, would the other conferences be able to put up a similar record? That's kind of my rationale. I think most conferences, if they had the same OOC slate, would have a similar record as the E8.

It's the same reason I'm not sold on Alfred as a #1 seed. It's not that the 9-0 isn't impressive. It's just that I believe almost any team in the Top 25 could go 9-0 with that schedule. It's just not that tough. It's eight teams that will miss the NCAA's and one that may sneak in, (Springfield, if they beat Fisher.)

Pumpkin brought up some good points when he emphasized some wins over better OOC teams in recent years. Ithaca's 2008 wins over Cortland and Lycoming are two other examples. It's not the quantity of wins I'm not sold on, it's the quality. I just don't see it--from anyone--in the E8 this year.

I do hear you on some things...and your points are well taken.  Look...if there are 12 teams that are undefeated and look pretty good, then hey, let the chips fall where they may.  I just think Alfred has a special team this year.  Who knows though...maybe IC and UC take care of business and it is all a moot point.

Playing devil's advocate here...let me ask you this.  Would you feel the same way about moving MUC to the east if Ithaca this were in the same position as AU is now...assuming they go undeated in the E8...with the only OOC win of any note is over an average Cortland team?

[saxontad]

All of the talk about rankings, seedings, regions etc. is vaguely interesting, but like other Alfred rooters (and I am sure, the players and coaches) I am interested only in playing well against
Ithaca on Saturday.  We from AU are not quite used to this and I just don't want to see a let down in effort because the team is awed about visiting Butterfield with something on the line.  No matter what anyone thinks about the Bombers this season there is still some intimidation in the concept of trying to beat Ithaca in their own house.  That being said I do take pride in the fact that the Saxons are "at the gates."  

On Saxon Warriors!!

[Bombers798891]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

Here's the thing: Not all seasons are created equal. I think this Alfred team is incredibly talented and good. I wish the E8 was better, so we could know more about how good. It's not that Alfred isn't capable of beating very good teams. It's that we don't have any real proof other than their Springfield win.

And yes, some of the fault lies with the Saxons OOC scheduling. I'm not going to pretend that I can be an AD, because I can't. But Mass Dartmouth has scored 52 points in nine games. FDU-Florham has played two competitive games this year and one was against Alfred. If you're going to schedule those teams, you have to hope the conference is strong.

Unfortunately, Ithaca's in the midst of their worst season in like, 40 years, Fisher's not the power they were three years ago, Hartwick's in a down year compared to the last two as well. Would any fan of those three teams say they're better this year than the 2007 version?

I mean, look, we're all fans here. And come NCAA playoff time, I'm all for Alfred whopping some people all over the country.

[theoriginalupstate]

I mean, look, we're all fans here. And come NCAA playoff time, I'm all for Alfred whopping some people all over the country.

I'm excited to see what Secky can do vs other teams outside of the region as well!

[Bombers798891]

You can fire off every meaningless stat on earth

If W-L record is a meaningless stat, then Alfred and SC look even less impressive.

Or do you think W-L record is the best way to determine how teams have done this season?

Like the teams that E8 teams have beaten?

...but the bottom line is if SJF and IC were at the top of this list...with a pretty good "normal" 3rd place team (SC or Alfred)...you would be saying how strong the E8 is this year.

What's worse, meaningless stats, or meaningless conjecture?

You cannot ignore a 20-4 OOC record as a whole...with the "worst" loss being SJF against Salisbury.   The other 3 weren't that bad (SJF against MUC should barely count, UC's 3 point loss to RPI after missing two short field goals in the fourth quarter, and IC's last minute loss to Union.)

Sounds like another bitter IC poster angry about the way the year has turned out...

Ok, you're right that the losses were tough. But then you ignore the fact that almost all of the wins were over bad teams. Quality of opponents matter. It's not JUST about the record.

St. Lawrence? Anna Maria? Widener? Becker? Castleton State? Morrisville State? Frostburg? FDU-Florham? Mass Dartmouth? Rochester?

I mean, is there a single win in those 20 against a good team there? The best OOC win is probably by Hartwick over Norwich, who is 6-3.

I hear what you are saying...but show me ANY other conference with a better OOC record as a whole...or a team from anywhere in the country whose OOC opponents winning percentage is off the charts.  My guess is you may find one or two...but not many.  To give you an idea, St. John's OOC opponents winning percentage is .438, Linfield's is .500, and Thomas More's is .214.  All three of these teams are ranked in the top 11...and none of their OOC opponents winning percentage is that fantastic.

Yes, the E8 % is amazing compared to other conferences, but the question I always ask myself is this: If we switched the schedules, would the other conferences be able to put up a similar record? That's kind of my rationale. I think most conferences, if they had the same OOC slate, would have a similar record as the E8.

It's the same reason I'm not sold on Alfred as a #1 seed. It's not that the 9-0 isn't impressive. It's just that I believe almost any team in the Top 25 could go 9-0 with that schedule. It's just not that tough. It's eight teams that will miss the NCAA's and one that may sneak in, (Springfield, if they beat Fisher.)

Pumpkin brought up some good points when he emphasized some wins over better OOC teams in recent years. Ithaca's 2008 wins over Cortland and Lycoming are two other examples. It's not the quantity of wins I'm not sold on, it's the quality. I just don't see it--from anyone--in the E8 this year.

I do hear you on some things...and your points are well taken.  Look...if there are 12 teams that are undefeated and look pretty good, then hey, let the chips fall where they may.  I just think Alfred has a special team this year.  Who knows though...maybe IC and UC take care of business and it is all a moot point.

Playing devil's advocate here...let me ask you this.  Would you feel the same way about moving MUC to the east if Ithaca this were in the same position as AU is now...assuming they go undeated in the E8...with the only OOC win of any note is over an average Cortland team?

Assuming Ithaca could ever go a full season without ****ing away a couple of games, yeah I would. I mean, you can believe me or not, but I'm a big fan of SOS. To me, that separates the "very good" from the "great". That ability to beat great teams. One of the reasons I thought that the 2008 IC team had a better resume than the 2009 Alfred team, even with the loss, was exactly that: Strength of Schedule.

It's the main reason I think this Ithaca team is terrible. Wins over Widener, Utica, St. Lawrence and Frostburg don't impress me at all. The second I saw that schedule, I figured those four would be wins. The rest of it was up for grabs. Ithaca's gone 1-3 in those games, and probably will wind up 1-5 in them.

It's clear there are two schools of thought here and it's fine that we don't agree. You, and some others feel that the 9-0 is what matters. Ok. I don't agree, but I understand where you're coming from. For me, and some others, it's about the quality of opponent. It has nothing to do with the names of the schools at the top of the list. Neither is "right" or "wrong".

[Bombers798891]

I mean, look, we're all fans here. And come NCAA playoff time, I'm all for Alfred whopping some people all over the country.

I'm excited to see what Secky can do vs other teams outside of the region as well!

Hey, I'd love to be proven wrong. The beautiful thing about D-III football is that we get a chance to settle these debates on the field. If Alfred gets to the regional finals and scores a couple of TD's on MUC, I'll happily eat the crow. I think it's entirely possible.

[SJFF82]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

Here's the thing: Not all seasons are created equal. I think this Alfred team is incredibly talented and good. I wish the E8 was better, so we could know more about how good. It's not that Alfred isn't capable of beating very good teams. It's that we don't have any real proof other than their Springfield win.

And yes, some of the fault lies with the Saxons OOC scheduling. I'm not going to pretend that I can be an AD, because I can't. But Mass Dartmouth has scored 52 points in nine games. FDU-Florham has played two competitive games this year and one was against Alfred. If you're going to schedule those teams, you have to hope the conference is strong.

Unfortunately, Ithaca's in the midst of their worst season in like, 40 years, Fisher's not the power they were three years ago, Hartwick's in a down year compared to the last two as well. Would any fan of those three teams say they're better this year than the 2007 version?

I mean, look, we're all fans here. And come NCAA playoff time, I'm all for Alfred whopping some people all over the country.

They dont appear to be, yet part of that appearance is because they used to beat AU by 21 and now lose to them.  So how does a team like AU declare itself strong when the teams it beats logically incur that loss contributing to their perceived weakness?  Was Fisher weak in 2006 because it pummeled AU and IC who were weak because they got pummeled?  Its circular.

AU posters are taking a good approach, as fans, they are happy and excited about the position they are in, because it sure beats this fan's position....outside looking in.

[SJFF82]

ECAC Bowl (North Subregion) Update (As of 11/3/09 @ 10:15am)

The following teams have applied for consideration for ECAC Championship games on 11/21/09 from the North Subregion of the ECAC:

Maine Maritime (7-1, 5-1) *
Springfield (7-1, 3-1) *
Plymouth State (7-2, 5-1)
SUNY-Cortland (6-2, 6-2)
Hartwick (5-3, 1-3) +
St. John Fisher (4-3, 3-2) +
RPI (4-3, 2-3)
Gallaudet (5-4, 3-2) =
Framingham State (5-4, 3-3)
Utica (3-5, 0-4) X

Records are overall followed by respective league records.

* - Team could still win an NCAA berth.

+ - Team plays against another team in the list in future game.

= - Team may play an 11th game prior to the ECACs, disallowing team from playing 12th game unless that game were an NCAA Playoff game.

X - Team currently does not have record that would allow it to be considered (>=.500 overall or in league).

Six teams will be picked from the list of teams that file for consideration.  The deadline for consideration without late fee is THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 5TH at 5pm EST.  

Teams will be selected by the ECAC Football Championships Committee on or about 11/15/09 (following selection of the NCAA Playoffs field).  Teams historically have been selected by win-loss record except when ties exist.  The #1 team hosts the #6 team, the #2 team hosts the #5 team and the #3 team hosts the #4 team, unless the higher-seeded team does not file to host the game.  All games begin at 12pm local time on 11/21/09.

Is this correct, or maybe I am reading it wrong...but it looks like it states that SJF is mathematically eliminated from NCAA contention. There is no "*" next to them. That is not correct...if AU loses final 2 and SJF wins final 2 they win E8 at 4-1, with AU at 3-2. SC would necessarily have 2 conf. losses (AU, SJF)

[Bombers798891]

If we were bitter we'd be playing our ****ty season off on the rationale that the E8 is BETTER this year.

Absolutely, but consider that arguing the converse is the equivalent of telling Alfred and Springfield that they are crappy and their accomplishments this year don't count as much as the Fisher and Ithaca championships of yesteryear.

Here's the thing: Not all seasons are created equal. I think this Alfred team is incredibly talented and good. I wish the E8 was better, so we could know more about how good. It's not that Alfred isn't capable of beating very good teams. It's that we don't have any real proof other than their Springfield win.

And yes, some of the fault lies with the Saxons OOC scheduling. I'm not going to pretend that I can be an AD, because I can't. But Mass Dartmouth has scored 52 points in nine games. FDU-Florham has played two competitive games this year and one was against Alfred. If you're going to schedule those teams, you have to hope the conference is strong.

Unfortunately, Ithaca's in the midst of their worst season in like, 40 years, Fisher's not the power they were three years ago, Hartwick's in a down year compared to the last two as well. Would any fan of those three teams say they're better this year than the 2007 version?

I mean, look, we're all fans here. And come NCAA playoff time, I'm all for Alfred whopping some people all over the country.

They dont appear to be, yet part of that appearance is because they used to beat AU by 21 and now lose to them.  So how does a team like AU declare itself strong when the teams it beats logically incur that loss contributing to their perceived weakness?  Was Fisher weak in 2006 because it pummeled AU and IC who were weak because they got pummeled?  Its circular.

AU posters are taking a good approach, as fans, they are happy and excited about the position they are in, because it sure beats this fan's position....outside looking in.

Well, considering in 2006 they went to the National Semifinals and this year will be the 2nd straight that they've missed the NCAA's, I'm not sure how much more clear it can be. That's a pretty clear cut indicator.

And, if you want to compare Fisher margins of victory outside of Alfred, we can:

Rochester

2006: 20
2009: 2

Utica

2006: 64
2009: 17

Mount Union (Margin of defeat in this case)

2006: 12
2009: 42

Hartwick

2006: 41
2009: (Probably less than 41)

Overall:

2006: +24
2009: +4

[Bombers798891]

ECAC Bowl (North Subregion) Update (As of 11/3/09 @ 10:15am)

The following teams have applied for consideration for ECAC Championship games on 11/21/09 from the North Subregion of the ECAC:

Maine Maritime (7-1, 5-1) *
Springfield (7-1, 3-1) *
Plymouth State (7-2, 5-1)
SUNY-Cortland (6-2, 6-2)
Hartwick (5-3, 1-3) +
St. John Fisher (4-3, 3-2) +
RPI (4-3, 2-3)
Gallaudet (5-4, 3-2) =
Framingham State (5-4, 3-3)
Utica (3-5, 0-4) X

Records are overall followed by respective league records.

* - Team could still win an NCAA berth.

+ - Team plays against another team in the list in future game.

= - Team may play an 11th game prior to the ECACs, disallowing team from playing 12th game unless that game were an NCAA Playoff game.

X - Team currently does not have record that would allow it to be considered (>=.500 overall or in league).

Six teams will be picked from the list of teams that file for consideration.  The deadline for consideration without late fee is THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 5TH at 5pm EST.  

Teams will be selected by the ECAC Football Championships Committee on or about 11/15/09 (following selection of the NCAA Playoffs field).  Teams historically have been selected by win-loss record except when ties exist.  The #1 team hosts the #6 team, the #2 team hosts the #5 team and the #3 team hosts the #4 team, unless the higher-seeded team does not file to host the game.  All games begin at 12pm local time on 11/21/09.

Is this correct, or maybe I am reading it wrong...but it looks like it states that SJF is mathematically eliminated from NCAA contention. There is no "*" next to them. That is not correct...if AU loses final 2 and SJF wins final 2 they win E8 at 4-1, with AU at 3-2. SC would necessarily have 2 conf. losses (AU, SJF)

You'd be correct. Fisher is still alive for an NCAA bid

[sjfcards]

ECAC Bowl (North Subregion) Update (As of 11/3/09 @ 10:15am)

The following teams have applied for consideration for ECAC Championship games on 11/21/09 from the North Subregion of the ECAC:

Maine Maritime (7-1, 5-1) *
Springfield (7-1, 3-1) *
Plymouth State (7-2, 5-1)
SUNY-Cortland (6-2, 6-2)
Hartwick (5-3, 1-3) +
St. John Fisher (4-3, 3-2) +
RPI (4-3, 2-3)
Gallaudet (5-4, 3-2) =
Framingham State (5-4, 3-3)
Utica (3-5, 0-4) X

Records are overall followed by respective league records.

* - Team could still win an NCAA berth.

+ - Team plays against another team in the list in future game.

= - Team may play an 11th game prior to the ECACs, disallowing team from playing 12th game unless that game were an NCAA Playoff game.

X - Team currently does not have record that would allow it to be considered (>=.500 overall or in league).

Six teams will be picked from the list of teams that file for consideration.  The deadline for consideration without late fee is THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 5TH at 5pm EST.  

Teams will be selected by the ECAC Football Championships Committee on or about 11/15/09 (following selection of the NCAA Playoffs field).  Teams historically have been selected by win-loss record except when ties exist.  The #1 team hosts the #6 team, the #2 team hosts the #5 team and the #3 team hosts the #4 team, unless the higher-seeded team does not file to host the game.  All games begin at 12pm local time on 11/21/09.

Is this correct, or maybe I am reading it wrong...but it looks like it states that SJF is mathematically eliminated from NCAA contention. There is no "*" next to them. That is not correct...if AU loses final 2 and SJF wins final 2 they win E8 at 4-1, with AU at 3-2. SC would necessarily have 2 conf. losses (AU, SJF)

You'd be correct. Fisher is still alive for an NCAA bid

Fisher is still alive woo hoo...I wish I could get excited about it but I don't see AU letting this season get away from them. Hopefully Fisher can get another bowl win this year, and look forward to having a talented group coming back for next year.