FB: Empire 8

[bomber3]

But bomber3, if you want to give me a reason they DO deserve that ranking, feel free. It's interesting that you rip the comment I make and offer no reason why you think I'm wrong, other then the fact that, I guess, you dislike me.

So why do you think the Bombers are justified at 16?

I don't necessarily disagree that Ithaca at 16 is a bit too high but am just noting if there is a glass half full/empty scenario, typically you take the half empty.  They were 7-3 (?) last year and lost alot on the defensive side of the ball and OL but if they went 8-2 or 9-1 no one would be surprised.  Yes, they are ranked a bit too high probably but the program has earned the respect of voters the past 25+ years with success year in and year out.

dlip hear's what you are saying but it is about time for Ithaca to earn that respect again as opposed to them just being given it. Their recent inconsistentcy and stumbles have really given most here in the east region reason to doubt IC being deserving of a top 25 preseason ranking. At this point, to dlip, they simply don't belong in this poll.

Are there 25 other teams in the nation better than them right now?  Probably yes.  It's just that the voters don't know who they are so instead of sticking a team with a year ot two of success in the polls, they put teams with a long history of being in the rankings in the past (ie Fisher, IC).  I stated on other boards there shouldn't even be a preseason poll in Division 3 sports.  There should be something like "50 Teams to Watch" or something along those lines and not come out with a poll until week 3.  This isn't like Division 1 where every recruit, injury, and transfer is analyzed with a microscope.  Alot of things happen that would effect the polls that 90% of the voters across the country have no idea about.  Outside of the top five teams my guess is you could put the estimated top 50 teams in the country and pick the remaining top 25 out of a hat and there wouldn't be a statstical difference than the preseason polls. 

[dlippiel]

Maybe someone who has the time today can make a chart showing every easts teams final poll rankings over the last 8 years.  That might help.

Unless you want to make a football argument as to what teams should be in there based on what players are coming back or coming in, you can't just say Ithaca and SJF don't deserve to be there.  I mean, you could replace both those teams with some other OAC, WIAA, or midwest/south teams that I don't know about.

I am going to assume that the people who make these polls do just that.  They look at the rankings of east teams over the last 10 years and just put the team somewhere in the ballpark of those numbers.  There might be teams who finished in the d3 top 25 last year who don't have a history of finishing in the top 50 like Ithaca or SJF has.  So the pollster takes that into consideration into figuring out that some of those teams may not finish in the top 25 this next year based on their past 10 year history.

Obviously one cannot take the time to look at each teams returning players for any and all teams in consideration for the poll. It's a culmination of factors that play a role. Bottom line is, if dlip uses as many factors as he can, looking at IC's season in 2009 when they came out with a top 10 ranking only to lose to Union and then continue to seemingly "underperform," considering the loss of Grasdorf, the lack of ealry success on the ground, and the losses they have coming into the 2010 campaign, as well as comparing the wins/losses of the teams they played (not always a great cirteria but one that should be looked at) dlip feels he can say that IC does not belong in the preseason top 25. ****, dlip ****in hopes (aside from the first game vs the U) that IC has a great year. He hopes they can get themselves back into top form. He just does not see it happeneing on a national level thats all.

[dlippiel]

But bomber3, if you want to give me a reason they DO deserve that ranking, feel free. It's interesting that you rip the comment I make and offer no reason why you think I'm wrong, other then the fact that, I guess, you dislike me.

So why do you think the Bombers are justified at 16?

I don't necessarily disagree that Ithaca at 16 is a bit too high but am just noting if there is a glass half full/empty scenario, typically you take the half empty.  They were 7-3 (?) last year and lost alot on the defensive side of the ball and OL but if they went 8-2 or 9-1 no one would be surprised.  Yes, they are ranked a bit too high probably but the program has earned the respect of voters the past 25+ years with success year in and year out.

dlip hear's what you are saying but it is about time for Ithaca to earn that respect again as opposed to them just being given it. Their recent inconsistentcy and stumbles have really given most here in the east region reason to doubt IC being deserving of a top 25 preseason ranking. At this point, to dlip, they simply don't belong in this poll.

Are there 25 other teams in the nation better than them right now?  Probably yes.  It's just that the voters don't know who they are so instead of sticking a team with a year ot two of success in the polls, they put teams with a long history of being in the rankings in the past (ie Fisher, IC).  I stated on other boards there shouldn't even be a preseason poll in Division 3 sports.  There should be something like "50 Teams to Watch" or something along those lines and not come out with a poll until week 3.  This isn't like Division 1 where every recruit, injury, and transfer is analyzed with a microscope.  Alot of things happen that would effect the polls that 90% of the voters across the country have no idea about.  Outside of the top five teams my guess is you could put the estimated top 50 teams in the country and pick the remaining top 25 out of a hat and there wouldn't be a statstical difference than the preseason polls. 

dlip likes preseason polls because they give his ass some D3 football to talk about well before the season comes upon us. 

[Jonny Utah]

I agree with you Dlip.  Just wanted to make the point that preseason polls in d3 sometimes have more to do with a 10 year history than it does with what happend last year (like bomber3 pointed out we really don't know who is coming back, transferring, recruiting, injured etc).  

Its like if you asked me to come up with a preseason poll for the Spanish soccer league..  I would look up the teams past history and take that into consideration since I have no idea about Soccer, or the Spanish league of soccer.  Some of these other d3 polls do the same.

[dlippiel]

Just wanted to make the point that preseason polls in d3 sometimes have more to do with a 10 year history than it does with what happend last year (like bomber3 pointed out we really don't know who is coming back, transferring, recruiting, injured etc). 

Its like if you asked me to come up with a preseason poll for the Spanish soccer league..  I would look up the teams past history and take that into consideration since I have no idea about Soccer, or the Spanish league of soccer.  Some of these other d3 polls do the same.

A good point Utah

[SJFF82]

1 poll has Bethel #6 in the whole country.....the other poll Bethel is nowhere to be found...that about sums up the stock we should be putting in these polls.

Let's wait for D3.com's poll....at least we know that one will be based upon some credible research.

[gordonmann]

It's just that the voters don't know who they are so instead of sticking a team with a year ot two of success in the polls...

I'm not sure either of these rankings has voters beyond the person who wrote the article.  Incidentally I thought the analysis of Delaware Valley in the Sporting News was dead on - Hatty's ability to fill Isgro's shoes at quarterback is the key - but the ranking was off.  Del Val is too high at No. 7.

[Bombers798891]

But bomber3, if you want to give me a reason they DO deserve that ranking, feel free. It's interesting that you rip the comment I make and offer no reason why you think I'm wrong, other then the fact that, I guess, you dislike me.

So why do you think the Bombers are justified at 16?

I don't necessarily disagree that Ithaca at 16 is a bit too high but am just noting if there is a glass half full/empty scenario, typically you take the half empty.  They were 7-3 (?) last year and lost alot on the defensive side of the ball and OL but if they went 8-2 or 9-1 no one would be surprised.  Yes, they are ranked a bit too high probably but the program has earned the respect of voters the past 25+ years with success year in and year out.

dlip hear's what you are saying but it is about time for Ithaca to earn that respect again as opposed to them just being given it. Their recent inconsistentcy and stumbles have really given most here in the east region reason to doubt IC being deserving of a top 25 preseason ranking. At this point, to dlip, they simply don't belong in this poll.

Are there 25 other teams in the nation better than them right now?  Probably yes.  It's just that the voters don't know who they are so instead of sticking a team with a year ot two of success in the polls, they put teams with a long history of being in the rankings in the past (ie Fisher, IC).  I stated on other boards there shouldn't even be a preseason poll in Division 3 sports.  There should be something like "50 Teams to Watch" or something along those lines and not come out with a poll until week 3.  This isn't like Division 1 where every recruit, injury, and transfer is analyzed with a microscope.  Alot of things happen that would effect the polls that 90% of the voters across the country have no idea about.  Outside of the top five teams my guess is you could put the estimated top 50 teams in the country and pick the remaining top 25 out of a hat and there wouldn't be a statstical difference than the preseason polls. 

Ok, you're right. I do tend to take the "half-empty" scenario. I'm at times, too tough on them. I can admit that. But I'd rather be too tough than too light. Because to me, each year, you can take a general gauge of where teams are, and yes, I feel that the Bombers have underachieved relative to their own standard, even if it's not what it used to be 20 years ago.

It's all about expectations. I know you're a BBall guy, so look at the 2008 Bombers. If you'd told me before the season started they'd have won 24 games, I'd have been ecstatic. But when they were 24-1* (25-0), the expectations naturally grew to "Man, this team could make the Final Four". So when they lost the next two, yeah, it kind of put a dour mark on the season. And yeah, there is carryover

(By the way, I think IC will win the E8 this year in BBall. Remember that next time you call me out for ripping them   )

As for this year's football team, there are question marks: I really like the Bombers' wide receivers and LB's, but can Ruggerio be the guy he was in 2008 as the feature back? Who will step up at QB? Can the line play improve? Can the Bombers close out tough games that they were unable to do against their better opponents? Ithaca's three toughest games are on the road (Fisher, Alfred, Cortland) can they win all of those?

As I said, they'll be pretty good. They always are. 8-2/7-3 is probably where I'd stick them. I don't think that's too critical

[fisheralum91]

82- great to see ya on.
Im trying to free up some time and get back to see more than one game at growney!

[bomber3]

But bomber3, if you want to give me a reason they DO deserve that ranking, feel free. It's interesting that you rip the comment I make and offer no reason why you think I'm wrong, other then the fact that, I guess, you dislike me.

So why do you think the Bombers are justified at 16?

I don't necessarily disagree that Ithaca at 16 is a bit too high but am just noting if there is a glass half full/empty scenario, typically you take the half empty.  They were 7-3 (?) last year and lost alot on the defensive side of the ball and OL but if they went 8-2 or 9-1 no one would be surprised.  Yes, they are ranked a bit too high probably but the program has earned the respect of voters the past 25+ years with success year in and year out.

dlip hear's what you are saying but it is about time for Ithaca to earn that respect again as opposed to them just being given it. Their recent inconsistentcy and stumbles have really given most here in the east region reason to doubt IC being deserving of a top 25 preseason ranking. At this point, to dlip, they simply don't belong in this poll.

Are there 25 other teams in the nation better than them right now?  Probably yes.  It's just that the voters don't know who they are so instead of sticking a team with a year ot two of success in the polls, they put teams with a long history of being in the rankings in the past (ie Fisher, IC).  I stated on other boards there shouldn't even be a preseason poll in Division 3 sports.  There should be something like "50 Teams to Watch" or something along those lines and not come out with a poll until week 3.  This isn't like Division 1 where every recruit, injury, and transfer is analyzed with a microscope.  Alot of things happen that would effect the polls that 90% of the voters across the country have no idea about.  Outside of the top five teams my guess is you could put the estimated top 50 teams in the country and pick the remaining top 25 out of a hat and there wouldn't be a statstical difference than the preseason polls. 

Ok, you're right. I do tend to take the "half-empty" scenario. I'm at times, too tough on them. I can admit that. But I'd rather be too tough than too light. Because to me, each year, you can take a general gauge of where teams are, and yes, I feel that the Bombers have underachieved relative to their own standard, even if it's not what it used to be 20 years ago.

It's all about expectations. I know you're a BBall guy, so look at the 2008 Bombers. If you'd told me before the season started they'd have won 24 games, I'd have been ecstatic. But when they were 24-1* (25-0), the expectations naturally grew to "Man, this team could make the Final Four". So when they lost the next two, yeah, it kind of put a dour mark on the season. And yeah, there is carryover

(By the way, I think IC will win the E8 this year in BBall. Remember that next time you call me out for ripping them   )

As for this year's football team, there are question marks: I really like the Bombers' wide receivers and LB's, but can Ruggerio be the guy he was in 2008 as the feature back? Who will step up at QB? Can the line play improve? Can the Bombers close out tough games that they were unable to do against their better opponents? Ithaca's three toughest games are on the road (Fisher, Alfred, Cortland) can they win all of those?

As I said, they'll be pretty good. They always are. 8-2/7-3 is probably where I'd stick them. I don't think that's too critical

OK that is a more objective view of things.  I can see where you're coming from with alot of things but at times I think you can lean towards the negative side of things, which I sometimes take offense to.  And yes, the #16 ranking is probably dubious at best but I would rather have the voters put a program there that has been there in the past than a team with arguably more potential that doesn't have the track record to back it up yet (hasn't earned it yet).  And yes I know about the 2008 team's sour ending -- I had a front row seat for it..

[AUPepBand]

Pep will admit that Bombers798891's "Bomber Bowl Half Empty" approach helped to create some false hope when Pep's Saxons were headed to ButterField in 2009, which made the defeat more disappointing than all of AU's losses there in years past.

[Jonny Utah]

May have gotten lost in the six pages of literary criticism, but Pep looks at today's game as a real battle between the Saxons trying to clinch and the Bombers, backed into a corner with their streak of winning seasons at stake.

Pep thinks the Saxons are tuxedo-clad, ready to go to the dance, but now facing a cornered skunk....this one could really stink before it's over.

Sad to say I won't be there. At least when I was unemployed, I had the time to go to football games. Plus, there was the added bonus of Ithaca, you know, not losing all the time.

Honestly, while I appreciate Pep's analogy of Ithaca being a skunk, I'm going to channel my inner JoseQViper. This isn't about heart, pride, home field, 39 years of whatever. This is just a case of one team being better than the other. The talent level is just not equal, especially on offense. And that's WITH Secky out.

The last few years when this game rolled around, Ithaca was at the tail end of a five or six week campaign of mass destruction. Now they're just injured and haven't strung together two decent weeks together all season. Worse yet, they've shown very little ability to play from behind, with the exception of the Utica game.

Alfred's been tripped up before, but those were by good Ithaca teams. This isn't one.

Alfred 33
Ithaca 14

And I'll say this my Saxon friends. Do us all a favor and don't lose in the first round of the playoffs? We're all getting a little tired of seeing E8 teams bounced in the first round, and Fisher isn't there to save us this season.

Shame on you bombers.  Football is always about pride.  Especially bomber football.

Go Bombers.

I forgot. You know what we oughta do? Take our three National Championship Trophies and put them in Alfred's locker room, in plain sight. That way, our illustrious history will intimidate Alfred so badly, it'll turn into Hartwick '98 all over again. Heck, the Saxons may not even take the field after seeing the stature of the program they have to face.

Bombers 63
Alfred 7

Better? 

Has nothing to do with National Championships.  Ithaca has the ability to beat Alfred today.  And they will.

Some of us had some bomber optimism!

[AUKaz00]

Pep will admit that Bombers798891's "Bomber Bowl Half Empty" approach helped to create some false hope when Pep's Saxons were headed to ButterField in 2009, which made the defeat more disappointing than all of AU's losses there in years past.

Yeah, we need something to bust us out of our ButterField funk.  That'll take a large cow suit and some more cow bell!!!  Bring on ButterField in 2011 (or better yet, in the Regional Finals in 2010!).

[Bombers798891]

May have gotten lost in the six pages of literary criticism, but Pep looks at today's game as a real battle between the Saxons trying to clinch and the Bombers, backed into a corner with their streak of winning seasons at stake.

Pep thinks the Saxons are tuxedo-clad, ready to go to the dance, but now facing a cornered skunk....this one could really stink before it's over.

Sad to say I won't be there. At least when I was unemployed, I had the time to go to football games. Plus, there was the added bonus of Ithaca, you know, not losing all the time.

Honestly, while I appreciate Pep's analogy of Ithaca being a skunk, I'm going to channel my inner JoseQViper. This isn't about heart, pride, home field, 39 years of whatever. This is just a case of one team being better than the other. The talent level is just not equal, especially on offense. And that's WITH Secky out.

The last few years when this game rolled around, Ithaca was at the tail end of a five or six week campaign of mass destruction. Now they're just injured and haven't strung together two decent weeks together all season. Worse yet, they've shown very little ability to play from behind, with the exception of the Utica game.

Alfred's been tripped up before, but those were by good Ithaca teams. This isn't one.

Alfred 33
Ithaca 14

And I'll say this my Saxon friends. Do us all a favor and don't lose in the first round of the playoffs? We're all getting a little tired of seeing E8 teams bounced in the first round, and Fisher isn't there to save us this season.

Shame on you bombers.  Football is always about pride.  Especially bomber football.

Go Bombers.

I forgot. You know what we oughta do? Take our three National Championship Trophies and put them in Alfred's locker room, in plain sight. That way, our illustrious history will intimidate Alfred so badly, it'll turn into Hartwick '98 all over again. Heck, the Saxons may not even take the field after seeing the stature of the program they have to face.

Bombers 63
Alfred 7

Better? 

Has nothing to do with National Championships.  Ithaca has the ability to beat Alfred today.  And they will.

Some of us had some bomber optimism!

Hey, I was wrong. It happens. I'm sure our "Bomber optimists" don't want to talk about the Fisher games these last few years

[Jonny Utah]

May have gotten lost in the six pages of literary criticism, but Pep looks at today's game as a real battle between the Saxons trying to clinch and the Bombers, backed into a corner with their streak of winning seasons at stake.

Pep thinks the Saxons are tuxedo-clad, ready to go to the dance, but now facing a cornered skunk....this one could really stink before it's over.

Sad to say I won't be there. At least when I was unemployed, I had the time to go to football games. Plus, there was the added bonus of Ithaca, you know, not losing all the time.

Honestly, while I appreciate Pep's analogy of Ithaca being a skunk, I'm going to channel my inner JoseQViper. This isn't about heart, pride, home field, 39 years of whatever. This is just a case of one team being better than the other. The talent level is just not equal, especially on offense. And that's WITH Secky out.

The last few years when this game rolled around, Ithaca was at the tail end of a five or six week campaign of mass destruction. Now they're just injured and haven't strung together two decent weeks together all season. Worse yet, they've shown very little ability to play from behind, with the exception of the Utica game.

Alfred's been tripped up before, but those were by good Ithaca teams. This isn't one.

Alfred 33
Ithaca 14

And I'll say this my Saxon friends. Do us all a favor and don't lose in the first round of the playoffs? We're all getting a little tired of seeing E8 teams bounced in the first round, and Fisher isn't there to save us this season.

Shame on you bombers.  Football is always about pride.  Especially bomber football.

Go Bombers.

I forgot. You know what we oughta do? Take our three National Championship Trophies and put them in Alfred's locker room, in plain sight. That way, our illustrious history will intimidate Alfred so badly, it'll turn into Hartwick '98 all over again. Heck, the Saxons may not even take the field after seeing the stature of the program they have to face.

Bombers 63
Alfred 7

Better? 

Has nothing to do with National Championships.  Ithaca has the ability to beat Alfred today.  And they will.

Some of us had some bomber optimism!

Hey, I was wrong. It happens. I'm sure our "Bomber optimists" don't want to talk about the Fisher games these last few years

Even I don't have a lot of optomism going into those games anymore.  Although I would like to see that game moved towards the end of the season for a few years.