FB: Empire 8

[BoSox0322]

Pat -

The question on the football homepage regarding Ithaca's rushing game is misleading.  Those numbers take into account a snap over the punter's head and QB sacks, which accounted for -62 yards rushing.  In my opinion those yards shouldn't count so the real number is 48 yards rushing.  It is misleading!

I believe in D3, those yards do count. I think that those negative yards count in the rushing totals at all college levels, but maybe PC knows for sure.

there is different rules for d3?

[dlippiel]

I've heard from people close to the program that IC still plays it to recruits like they're a national power. That's kind of more sad than anything. Let's face it, the team hasn't been a national power since 1994. They were surpassed by Buffalo State in the mid 90's, by Fisher now, and arguably by Cortland. And I don't see any trophies in THEIR cases either, so that's saying something. Ithaca's barely a regional power anymore to say nothing of a national one.

I agree with your thought that IC is clearly not a national power anymore, much like every other team in the East region. However, what else would you sell to recruits? Even though the national championships happened forever ago, they did happen, and they are something to be proud of. Also, in DIII, you can probably convince some top level talent that you are a national power (I would use the winning seasons streak as proof) even if you are not, because most High School players follow DI football, until their junior or senior year when they realize that is where they are being recruited.
Is it misleading? sure. Is it unethical? I don't think so. All recruiting is sales, and recruits expect schools to put their best foot forward. The debate about what is okay, and what is not in recruiting could go on and on forever on this board I bet.

It's not so much about the recruiting side of it as it is my worry that that attitude seeps into play on the field. I wonder if IC needs to gain an "edge" back. It's more a worry of wondering if IC thinks a team like say, Curry, is going to come in and be intimidated in a playoff game because it's IC, and they've got this illustrious history. And then, hey, we lost

No disrespect here, but Fisher had a pretty non-descript history prior to say, 2003. But I think that's what's helped them so much now. These kids are putting together the Fisher football legacy. And I think that pushes and motivates. How many times has Fisher, since that 2003 season, lost to a team that finished with a worse record than them? I'm betting not as much as IC has.

But at IC, the legacy's already in place. We had a 20-year run as a national power, which was awesome, but it's time to focus on the future, and getting the program back up to where you want it. Don't make the 1988 and 1991 teams responsible for your legacy forever. Work on making the 2011 team that way. (I am going to assume 2010 is a lost cause)

dlip can relate to this discussion as a Dutchman fan. Currently dlip believes the program is caught somewhere between living in the past and finding out a new identity that is realistic regarding their level of success or lack there of today (he feels IC is in a similar spot).

He constantly battles the very high expectations he has for the U that clearly come from days past against possible realistic expectations and crediting current players with the commitment they make to the game, to the school, and the effort they put forth on the field. It is a tough place to gage for us here in the east where clearly to dlip our best years as a region (in regards to being national powers) are seemingly well behind us.

dlip fights though to hold onto those expectations even though they may not be realistic today in hopes that his U or any Eastern team for that matter will truly regain a place on the national stage. **** dlip remembers watching SJF at MUC a few years back and he was ****ing jumping around and yelling like they were his own team wanting them to win and compete so badly.

[PBR...]

I've heard from people close to the program that IC still plays it to recruits like they're a national power. That's kind of more sad than anything. Let's face it, the team hasn't been a national power since 1994. They were surpassed by Buffalo State in the mid 90's, by Fisher now, and arguably by Cortland. And I don't see any trophies in THEIR cases either, so that's saying something. Ithaca's barely a regional power anymore to say nothing of a national one.

I agree with your thought that IC is clearly not a national power anymore, much like every other team in the East region. However, what else would you sell to recruits? Even though the national championships happened forever ago, they did happen, and they are something to be proud of. Also, in DIII, you can probably convince some top level talent that you are a national power (I would use the winning seasons streak as proof) even if you are not, because most High School players follow DI football, until their junior or senior year when they realize that is where they are being recruited.
Is it misleading? sure. Is it unethical? I don't think so. All recruiting is sales, and recruits expect schools to put their best foot forward. The debate about what is okay, and what is not in recruiting could go on and on forever on this board I bet.

It's not so much about the recruiting side of it as it is my worry that that attitude seeps into play on the field. I wonder if IC needs to gain an "edge" back. It's more a worry of wondering if IC thinks a team like say, Curry, is going to come in and be intimidated in a playoff game because it's IC, and they've got this illustrious history. And then, hey, we lost

No disrespect here, but Fisher had a pretty non-descript history prior to say, 2003. But I think that's what's helped them so much now. These kids are putting together the Fisher football legacy. And I think that pushes and motivates. How many times has Fisher, since that 2003 season, lost to a team that finished with a worse record than them? I'm betting not as much as IC has.

But at IC, the legacy's already in place. We had a 20-year run as a national power, which was awesome, but it's time to focus on the future, and getting the program back up to where you want it. Don't make the 1988 and 1991 teams responsible for your legacy forever. Work on making the 2011 team that way. (I am going to assume 2010 is a lost cause)

dlip can relate to this discussion as a Dutchman fan. Currently dlip believes the program is caught somewhere between living in the past and finding out a new identity that is realistic regarding their level of success or lack there of today (he feels IC is in a similar spot).

He constantly battles the very high expectations he has for the U that clearly come from days past against possible realistic expectations and crediting current players with the commitment they make to the game, to the school, and the effort they put forth on the field. It is a tough place to gage for us here in the east where clearly to dlip our best years as a region (in regards to being national powers) are seemingly well behind us.

dlip fights though to hold onto those expectations even though they may not be realistic today in hopes that his U or any Eastern team for that matter will truly regain a place on the national stage. **** dlip remembers watching SJF at MUC a few years back and he was ****ing jumping around and yelling like they were his own team wanting them to win and compete so badly.

A lot of it is cyclical...the east will be back again. Also a big part of it is coaching. For instance DVC was a doormat for years until Coach Mangus came on board and resurrected the program. Rowan had some great years w/ Coach Keeler in charge. If either/both of them had stayed these schools imho would be competing w/ muc regularly. It is hard to keep them when they are young and aggressive and can make a lot more money to support their families by moving up to larger schools. That imho is what makes MUC so special, that coach has stayed there so long and a larger school hasn't pried him away.

[dlippiel]

dlip doesn't know if he fully agrees. There are a multitude of reasons as to why the East is where it is today. dlip is referring to eastern programs that have fallen off from being so-called "national" and even "regional" powers (ex. IC, Union). There are clearly two sides to the coin but dlip is at the point where he feels if the East wants any national respect we must do something about it. The stats game and comparisons have been being made for awhile. We simply need to get better if we hope to have the opportuntiy to compete for a national championship and some national respectablility. What worries dlip is the way things seem to be looking recently he doesn't know if the East will be back. Just some thoughts.

[bomber3]

Upstate -

I made note of it because I saw on the home page "Ithaca rushes for -14 yards" and thought to myself wow, we have a really terrible rushing game.  Probably one of the worst in the nation.  So I went to the box score to see -60 yards in sacks and a punt snapped over the head of the punter and said to myself "those shouldn't count".  I then proceeded to think, wow that is a really misleading stat! I hope you appreciate my thought process.  And I can take a little ribbing

[PBR...]

dlip doesn't know if he fully agrees. There are a multitude of reasons as to why the East is where it is today. dlip is referring to eastern programs that have fallen off from being so-called "national" and even "regional" powers (ex. IC, Union). There are clearly two sides to the coin but dlip is at the point where he feels if the East wants any national respect we must do something about it. The stats game and comparisons have been being made for awhile. We simply need to get better if we hope to have the opportuntiy to compete for a national championship and some national respectablility. What worries dlip is the way things seem to be looking recently he doesn't know if the East will be back. Just some thoughts.

agreed the only way to get it back is to do it on the field....Period. Until somone from the east gets at least to the final 4 and in most eyes to the final game if not winning it, there won't be any thought given to any team being a true power. Yes there are local/regional powers  for example this year dvc/sjf but until someone kicks down the door and makes a run deep into the playoffs no love will be shown to the east

[Yanks 99]

dlip doesn't know if he fully agrees. There are a multitude of reasons as to why the East is where it is today. dlip is referring to eastern programs that have fallen off from being so-called "national" and even "regional" powers (ex. IC, Union). There are clearly two sides to the coin but dlip is at the point where he feels if the East wants any national respect we must do something about it. The stats game and comparisons have been being made for awhile. We simply need to get better if we hope to have the opportuntiy to compete for a national championship and some national respectablility. What worries dlip is the way things seem to be looking recently he doesn't know if the East will be back. Just some thoughts.

agreed the only way to get it back is to do it on the field....Period. Until somone from the east gets at least to the final 4 and in most eyes to the final game if not winning it, there won't be any thought given to any team being a true power. Yes there are local/regional powers  for example this year dvc/sjf but until someone kicks down the door and makes a run deep into the playoffs no love will be shown to the east

Tough to do when they keep sending MUC over to the East Bracket every year.  As I have stated in previous posts, whether or not we have a "true" East team represent us in the Final 4 is not a reasonable measure of how strong the region is.  Is the North Region stronger because they get a rep to the Final Four every year because MUC is in the East?  I will say it again...the East Region as a whole has exactly as many win against MUC in the past 11 years as the North Region and the South Region does...one each.

I would love to get the chance to prove the East is on a level playing field with other regions (outside of the perennial powers of MUC and UWW)...but because we always end up with MUC in our bracket, it is pretty tough to find out.

[Bombers798891]

dlip doesn't know if he fully agrees. There are a multitude of reasons as to why the East is where it is today. dlip is referring to eastern programs that have fallen off from being so-called "national" and even "regional" powers (ex. IC, Union). There are clearly two sides to the coin but dlip is at the point where he feels if the East wants any national respect we must do something about it. The stats game and comparisons have been being made for awhile. We simply need to get better if we hope to have the opportuntiy to compete for a national championship and some national respectablility. What worries dlip is the way things seem to be looking recently he doesn't know if the East will be back. Just some thoughts.

agreed the only way to get it back is to do it on the field....Period. Until somone from the east gets at least to the final 4 and in most eyes to the final game if not winning it, there won't be any thought given to any team being a true power. Yes there are local/regional powers  for example this year dvc/sjf but until someone kicks down the door and makes a run deep into the playoffs no love will be shown to the east

Tough to do when they keep sending MUC over to the East Bracket every year.  As I have stated in previous posts, whether or not we have a "true" East team represent us in the Final 4 is not a reasonable measure of how strong the region is.  Is the North Region stronger because they get a rep to the Final Four every year because MUC is in the East?  I will say it again...the East Region as a whole has exactly as many win against MUC in the past 11 years as the North Region and the South Region does...one each.

I would love to get the chance to prove the East is on a level playing field with other regions (outside of the perennial powers of MUC and UWW)...but because we always end up with MUC in our bracket, it is pretty tough to find out.

It's going to keep happening if teams like Cortland/IC/Del Valley lose statement games and chances to go undefeated. I don't like it either, but our teams need to put on their big boy pants and quit ****ing around in the regular season.

[theoriginalupstate]

That play of the week totally reminded me of Bo Jackson on tecmo bowl!

[SJFF82]

Upstate -

I stated I could care less if it makes Ithaca look bad or not it is just misleading.  Did Ithaca really have -14 rushing in the typical sense of the word? No, they didn't, so why should the stats count that way? Quit choosing half the story to make yourself sound clever.

unless it was his design to sound clever....hmmmm

[SJFF82]

Upstate -

I stated I could care less if it makes Ithaca look bad or not it is just misleading.  Did Ithaca really have -14 rushing in the typical sense of the word? No, they didn't, so why should the stats count that way? Quit choosing half the story to make yourself sound clever.

Yes, I agree they are misleading and yes obviously you do care how it makes Ithaca look to observers, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up to begin with...

If you can't handle some slight ribbing you probably shouldn't be around...

Remember when Ithaca was relevant on the field and didnt have to debate age-old statistical categories to remain so....cmon IC posters, you and your program are better than this.

[SJFF82]

dlip doesn't know if he fully agrees. There are a multitude of reasons as to why the East is where it is today. dlip is referring to eastern programs that have fallen off from being so-called "national" and even "regional" powers (ex. IC, Union). There are clearly two sides to the coin but dlip is at the point where he feels if the East wants any national respect we must do something about it. The stats game and comparisons have been being made for awhile. We simply need to get better if we hope to have the opportuntiy to compete for a national championship and some national respectablility. What worries dlip is the way things seem to be looking recently he doesn't know if the East will be back. Just some thoughts.

agreed the only way to get it back is to do it on the field....Period. Until somone from the east gets at least to the final 4 and in most eyes to the final game if not winning it, there won't be any thought given to any team being a true power. Yes there are local/regional powers  for example this year dvc/sjf but until someone kicks down the door and makes a run deep into the playoffs no love will be shown to the east

Tough to do when they keep sending MUC over to the East Bracket every year.  As I have stated in previous posts, whether or not we have a "true" East team represent us in the Final 4 is not a reasonable measure of how strong the region is.  Is the North Region stronger because they get a rep to the Final Four every year because MUC is in the East?  I will say it again...the East Region as a whole has exactly as many win against MUC in the past 11 years as the North Region and the South Region does...one each.

I would love to get the chance to prove the East is on a level playing field with other regions (outside of the perennial powers of MUC and UWW)...but because we always end up with MUC in our bracket, it is pretty tough to find out.

good points +k

[PBR...]

Upstate -

I stated I could care less if it makes Ithaca look bad or not it is just misleading.  Did Ithaca really have -14 rushing in the typical sense of the word? No, they didn't, so why should the stats count that way? Quit choosing half the story to make yourself sound clever.

Yes, I agree they are misleading and yes obviously you do care how it makes Ithaca look to observers, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up to begin with...

If you can't handle some slight ribbing you probably shouldn't be around...

Remember when Ithaca was relevant on the field and didnt have to debate age-old statistical categories to remain so....cmon IC posters, you and your program are better than this.

OUCH!! SJF folks delivering a smackdown

[SJFF82]

Upstate -

I stated I could care less if it makes Ithaca look bad or not it is just misleading.  Did Ithaca really have -14 rushing in the typical sense of the word? No, they didn't, so why should the stats count that way? Quit choosing half the story to make yourself sound clever.

Yes, I agree they are misleading and yes obviously you do care how it makes Ithaca look to observers, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up to begin with...

If you can't handle some slight ribbing you probably shouldn't be around...

Remember when Ithaca was relevant on the field and didnt have to debate age-old statistical categories to remain so....cmon IC posters, you and your program are better than this.

OUCH!! SJF folks delivering a smackdown

oh boy PBR....82 was just messin around....you're going to go and and get me into a war that I wasnt ready for...

[SJFF82]

I actually agree with Bomber3...it was a misleading stat from the standpoint of how it was posited on the website homepage....but nonetheless a legitimate stat in accordance with the rules.