FB: Empire 8

[Bombers798891]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

Look, what has the East Region done to differentiate itself? Other than 2006 Fisher, what East region team since Rowan has actually been a contender?

Yes, I think it's a circular argument, to say they're weak and bring MUC East and then use MUC winning to prove that point like it's some big shock that the Purple Raiders won the region (because they so often lost it when they were in the North). But if a team from the East could put together a dominant regular season, we wouldn't have this problem at all.

So next time, tell Fisher to stop losing to Springfield. Or IC to stop losing to Fisher. Or Cortland to stop losing to IC. Or Del Valley to stop losing to...whoever it is that beats them.

But this is the crux of the problem. The East beats the **** out of each other. In the North, it's Mt. Union, Ohio Northern occasionally, and that's it.
I don't think it's a matter of the East being "worst" and that anti-East bias **** can be shoved where the sun don't shine.
I think it's the matter of the fact that the East clobbers each other year in and year out.

Maybe, but take this year for example. With apologies to your boys, it seems pretty clear SJF is the best team in the E8 this season. But they probably were the best team from 2005-2007 too and didn't run the table those years. So if Fisher loses to someone, that's just going to look bad. Especially if that team turns out to lose a few themselves.

It's one thing when a 9-0 Cortland loses to an 8-1 rival like IC. But when an unbeaten Alfred does the same to a 5-3 team? Or when unbeaten IC loses to a Fisher team that ends up going 7-4? That says more about the team at the top than the underdog

[PBR...]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

Look, what has the East Region done to differentiate itself? Other than 2006 Fisher, what East region team since Rowan has actually been a contender?

Yes, I think it's a circular argument, to say they're weak and bring MUC East and then use MUC winning to prove that point like it's some big shock that the Purple Raiders won the region (because they so often lost it when they were in the North). But if a team from the East could put together a dominant regular season, we wouldn't have this problem at all.

So next time, tell Fisher to stop losing to Springfield. Or IC to stop losing to Fisher. Or Cortland to stop losing to IC. Or Del Valley to stop losing to...whoever it is that beats them.

If I remember correctly, Keith and I spent some time in the podcast this past week on this very subject -- that St. John Fisher has a schedule that would earn it a top seed if it ran the table.

Except I hate the East, so I deleted it from the file before posting it. Right?

so who would get the #1 seed in the east if sjf runs the table/dvc has 1 loss for the season on the road at wesley 21-17 /MUC?

[theoriginalupstate]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

Look, what has the East Region done to differentiate itself? Other than 2006 Fisher, what East region team since Rowan has actually been a contender?

Yes, I think it's a circular argument, to say they're weak and bring MUC East and then use MUC winning to prove that point like it's some big shock that the Purple Raiders won the region (because they so often lost it when they were in the North). But if a team from the East could put together a dominant regular season, we wouldn't have this problem at all.

So next time, tell Fisher to stop losing to Springfield. Or IC to stop losing to Fisher. Or Cortland to stop losing to IC. Or Del Valley to stop losing to...whoever it is that beats them.

If I remember correctly, Keith and I spent some time in the podcast this past week on this very subject -- that St. John Fisher has a schedule that would earn it a top seed if it ran the table.

Except I hate the East, so I deleted it from the file before posting it. Right?

so who would get the #1 seed in the east if sjf runs the table/dvc has 1 loss for the season on the road at wesley 21-17 /MUC?

There's nothing wrong with a #2 seed PBR 

[boobyhasgameyo]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

Look, what has the East Region done to differentiate itself? Other than 2006 Fisher, what East region team since Rowan has actually been a contender?

Yes, I think it's a circular argument, to say they're weak and bring MUC East and then use MUC winning to prove that point like it's some big shock that the Purple Raiders won the region (because they so often lost it when they were in the North). But if a team from the East could put together a dominant regular season, we wouldn't have this problem at all.

So next time, tell Fisher to stop losing to Springfield. Or IC to stop losing to Fisher. Or Cortland to stop losing to IC. Or Del Valley to stop losing to...whoever it is that beats them.

If I remember correctly, Keith and I spent some time in the podcast this past week on this very subject -- that St. John Fisher has a schedule that would earn it a top seed if it ran the table.

Except I hate the East, so I deleted it from the file before posting it. Right?

so who would get the #1 seed in the east if sjf runs the table/dvc has 1 loss for the season on the road at wesley 21-17 /MUC?

Suny Maritime would get it in that scenario obviously

[fisheralum91]

upstate-pm

[PBR...]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

Look, what has the East Region done to differentiate itself? Other than 2006 Fisher, what East region team since Rowan has actually been a contender?

Yes, I think it's a circular argument, to say they're weak and bring MUC East and then use MUC winning to prove that point like it's some big shock that the Purple Raiders won the region (because they so often lost it when they were in the North). But if a team from the East could put together a dominant regular season, we wouldn't have this problem at all.

So next time, tell Fisher to stop losing to Springfield. Or IC to stop losing to Fisher. Or Cortland to stop losing to IC. Or Del Valley to stop losing to...whoever it is that beats them.

If I remember correctly, Keith and I spent some time in the podcast this past week on this very subject -- that St. John Fisher has a schedule that would earn it a top seed if it ran the table.

Except I hate the East, so I deleted it from the file before posting it. Right?

so who would get the #1 seed in the east if sjf runs the table/dvc has 1 loss for the season on the road at wesley 21-17 /MUC?

There's nothing wrong with a #2 seed PBR 

HA! nice one...interesting thought...came to mind when reading pat's post. could have imho 3 teams truly worthy of the #1 seed in the east. of course lots of games still to be played but raises some interesting thoughts

[dlippiel]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

I'm pro-facts. Facts don't say much nice about the East. It's just reality, Doid.

Regarding play vs MUC they don't say much nice about anyone excluding two or three teams nationally out of over 200.

Doid is correct Pat and so was dlip. You may not have an anti-east bias in your mind but it is clearly the way you come across at times. Believe it or not some of us may be able to give you some insight and feedback and even though you may not like it, it may actually be true. dlip knows he has learned tons from other posters on here but then again he is simply just a peon and lowly poster on these boards not the guru. How could he or doid expect you to take one of our observations seriously?

[Jonny Utah]

Maybe its time for an east team to go out and play a North region team from another conference (SJF has already played MUC).  Go out and play North Central, Wittenburg, Wabash, etc.

I still don't have a problem having Mt. Union in the east.  Untill we see an eastern team get screwed out of a playoff spot because of it, I say let them stay.

[Yanks 99]

I cannot imagine that you are arguing that the South Region is better as a whole simply because of their one win (Mary Hardin-Baylor) over MUC by 3 in 2004???  Because they kind of did lay an egg when they lost to Linfield in the championship the following week...

Uhm, check your history. They lost by one score and they were driving as time expired. Compare that to the Rowan beatdown by Pacific Lutheran in 1999.

I know the score was close...but the fact is they lost in the championship game the week after slaying Goliath.  It would have been like the 1980 Hockey Team losing to Finland the next game.  It was nice to beat the Russians...but would we even care today if we didn't eventually win the gold???

I can agree to disagree...just not sure there is that much of a difference between the regional scores you just listed above for the East Region (which of course includes MUC) and the 43-9, 46-14, and 44-7 playoff losses that Wesley has suffered in 3 of the past 4 years, or MHB's 53-21 and 39-13 playoff losses over the past two years.  I mean...they all smell like beat downs...

I am actually not sure how the North Region escapes the most criticism.  They play more games against MUC each year (obviously...they are in the same Region)...and have exactly as many wins as the East and South Regions do (one each).  More chances to beat MUC...and the same amount of wins???

Do most people remember we won the gold. I bet if you asked, many people will remember the game against the Russians as the gold medal game.

Of course most people remember the that we won the gold overall.  Most, if you asked them though, just think that the game against the Russians was for the gold medal, and not the pseudo-semi finals.

I don't think that there would be as much celebration if we didn't beat the Russians in the medal round (say in the early part of the tournament, and then say we missed the medal round later on) and then went on to win the gold.  I will take Herb Brooks' very short speech to the team during one of the intermissions during the game with Finland..."If you lose this game, you'll take it to your graves.  Your f@ck!ng graves."  He knew...

[Bombers798891]

Maybe its time for an east team to go out and play a North region team from another conference (SJF has already played MUC).  Go out and play North Central, Wittenburg, Wabash, etc.

I still don't have a problem having Mt. Union in the east.  Untill we see an eastern team get screwed out of a playoff spot because of it, I say let them stay.

Certainly an option for E8/LL teams who play 3-4 games OOC a year. I wonder though, how much the economy makes that difficult. Can teams afford the expenses for that kind of travel on the D-III level? What would it cost to say, get Ithaca to Wabash vs. Lycoming?

[Yanks 99]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

I'm pro-facts. Facts don't say much nice about the East. It's just reality, Doid.

Regarding play vs MUC they don't say much nice about anyone excluding two or three teams nationally out of over 200.

Doid is correct Pat and so was dlip. You may not have an anti-east bias in your mind but it is clearly the way you come across at times. Believe it or not some of us may be able to give you some insight and feedback and even though you may not like it, it may actually be true. dlip knows he has learned tons from other posters on here but then again he is simply just a peon and lowly poster on these boards not the guru. How could he or doid expect you to take one of our observations seriously?

I am with you dlip.  I have learned a ton from others posters on these forums, to include Pat...and while I don't know if Pat necessarily has an anti-East bias, I don't think that he takes facts that don't support his particular argument into consideration.  Some thoughts:

- Pat stated "What data did you want to compare East vs. South with? I don't see East teams lining up to play the South's best conference. If you guys would rather play the Centennial, that's fine for your "like-minded institution" stuff, but that's not a way to really get respect."  OK...where are the South Region teams lining up to play the East teams?  That works both ways you know...what evidence or facts do you have besides word of mouth that all of these "South Region" powers are lining up to play SJF, Ithaca, Rowan, Cortland, etc. and that these teams are turning them down to stick with "like-minded institutions"  If I was any teams from the South Region, why would they even bother to try?  They don't need to right now...as they can pretty much avoid MUC until deep in the playoffs each year if they just keep the status quo.

- The phrase "If you want to keep MUC out of the East you need get better" has been repeated numerous times.  I agree...that would be a quick and easy fix...not that there is anything easy about beating MUC at all.  My question is why are the North Region teams not held to this very same standard???  Over the past 11 years the East Region teams have had 13 opportunities to knock off MUC.  They have done it once.  The South region teams have had 9 opportunities (with one win) and the West (clearly the most successful region with 3 wins over MUC) has had 12 opportunities.  The North Region???  They have had 123 opportunities to beat MUC...and have succeeded once.  One out of one hundred and twenty-three chances.  Maybe the North Region is the region that needs to get better?  I mean...at this rate, the East would need about 100 years to get that many opportunities against MUC...and even if we lost every single game against MUC over the next one hundred years, we would still have as many wins as the North Region does.

If we get MUC in the East this year because none of our top teams run the table...so be it.  If it is simply because the East Region has a stigma that we are the "weakest" Region simply because we are not "good enough" to beat MUC...that is ridiculous.

[PBR...]

+k to everyone on the last several pages for good info/debate and thoughts...see both sides of the issue and lean towards yanks last points...good stuff all in all everyone. pbr for instance is glad to see dvc taking on some of the "big boys" in OOC....wesley the last several years. W&J and Wesley this year....But if that doesn't help in the playoff rankings then you will see some teams never look to play any better competition. Granted DVC HC Clements quote of "we have to end up playing 1 of the big 4 anyway in the playoffs, so this lets us see where we are at and what we need to improve on...." has merit but some coaches from the east/south won't schedule tough OOC games and just pad their schedules w/ cream puffs if they don't see any consideration given for playoff rankings

[dlippiel]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

I'm pro-facts. Facts don't say much nice about the East. It's just reality, Doid.

Regarding play vs MUC they don't say much nice about anyone excluding two or three teams nationally out of over 200.

Doid is correct Pat and so was dlip. You may not have an anti-east bias in your mind but it is clearly the way you come across at times. Believe it or not some of us may be able to give you some insight and feedback and even though you may not like it, it may actually be true. dlip knows he has learned tons from other posters on here but then again he is simply just a peon and lowly poster on these boards not the guru. How could he or doid expect you to take one of our observations seriously?

I am with you dlip.  I have learned a ton from others posters on these forums, to include Pat...and while I don't know if Pat necessarily has an anti-East bias, I don't think that he takes facts that don't support his particular argument into consideration.  Some thoughts:

- Pat stated "What data did you want to compare East vs. South with? I don't see East teams lining up to play the South's best conference. If you guys would rather play the Centennial, that's fine for your "like-minded institution" stuff, but that's not a way to really get respect."  OK...where are the South Region teams lining up to play the East teams?  That works both ways you know...what evidence or facts do you have besides word of mouth that all of these "South Region" powers are lining up to play SJF, Ithaca, Rowan, Cortland, etc. and that these teams are turning them down to stick with "like-minded institutions"  If I was any teams from the South Region, why would they even bother to try?  They don't need to right now...as they can pretty much avoid MUC until deep in the playoffs each year if they just keep the status quo.

- The phrase "If you want to keep MUC out of the East you need get better" has been repeated numerous times.  I agree...that would be a quick and easy fix...not that there is anything easy about beating MUC at all.  My question is why are the North Region teams not held to this very same standard???  Over the past 11 years the East Region teams have had 13 opportunities to knock off MUC.  They have done it once.  The South region teams have had 9 opportunities (with one win) and the West (clearly the most successful region with 3 wins over MUC) has had 12 opportunities.  The North Region???  They have had 123 opportunities to beat MUC...and have succeeded once.  One out of one hundred and twenty-three chances.  Maybe the North Region is the region that needs to get better?  I mean...at this rate, the East would need about 100 years to get that many opportunities against MUC...and even if we lost every single game against MUC over the next one hundred years, we would still have as many wins as the North Region does.

If we get MUC in the East this year because none of our top teams run the table...so be it.  If it is simply because the East Region has a stigma that we are the "weakest" Region simply because we are not "good enough" to beat MUC...that is ridiculous.

Yanks best post yet regarding this debate, well said +k

[Bombers798891]

+k to everyone on the last several pages for good info/debate and thoughts...see both sides of the issue and lean towards yanks last points...good stuff all in all everyone. pbr for instance is glad to see dvc taking on some of the "big boys" in OOC....wesley the last several years. W&J and Wesley this year....But if that doesn't help in the playoff rankings then you will see some teams never look to play any better competition. Granted DVC HC Clements quote of "we have to end up playing 1 of the big 4 anyway in the playoffs, so this lets us see where we are at and what we need to improve on...." has merit but some coaches from the east/south won't schedule tough OOC games and just pad their schedules w/ cream puffs if they don't see any consideration given for playoff rankings

I think there's also a line to be drawn between scheduling "cream puffs" and powerhouses. DVC scheduled W&J, who is very good. The better E8 and LL teams have tended to schedule each other in recent years.

I don't know what you gain from scheduling a team you're obviously inferior to. Did Fisher gain anything from losing those two to MUC? Unless we argue some down-the-road benefits that would be tough to link causation to, I don't know if there was any tangible benefit. They still had to start 4-0 this year and stomp everyone to get ranked, and they're barely ahead of a 3-0 Alfred team who's played no-one challenging OOC in how long and has a pair of close wins?

You have to know your level, and make reasonable attempts to play up to--or slightly above--it. It's when you play down that you lose the respect

[fisheralum91]

I remember Coach Vos saying that in order to become the best you must play the best and evaluate thusly.
Something like that.....well.....They played the best, got shelled by the best, and gained no real knowledge of how the team would play in conference.
The MUC experiment was a flop in my mind.
I dont believe starting the season knowing that you were going to be 0-1 was good in any way.