FB: Empire 8

[John McGraw]

+k to everyone on the last several pages for good info/debate and thoughts...see both sides of the issue and lean towards yanks last points...good stuff all in all everyone. pbr for instance is glad to see dvc taking on some of the "big boys" in OOC....wesley the last several years. W&J and Wesley this year....But if that doesn't help in the playoff rankings then you will see some teams never look to play any better competition. Granted DVC HC Clements quote of "we have to end up playing 1 of the big 4 anyway in the playoffs, so this lets us see where we are at and what we need to improve on...." has merit but some coaches from the east/south won't schedule tough OOC games and just pad their schedules w/ cream puffs if they don't see any consideration given for playoff rankings

I think there's also a line to be drawn between scheduling "cream puffs" and powerhouses. DVC scheduled W&J, who is very good. The better E8 and LL teams have tended to schedule each other in recent years.

I don't know what you gain from scheduling a team you're obviously inferior to. Did Fisher gain anything from losing those two to MUC? Unless we argue some down-the-road benefits that would be tough to link causation to, I don't know if there was any tangible benefit. They still had to start 4-0 this year and stomp everyone to get ranked, and they're barely ahead of a 3-0 Alfred team who's played no-one challenging OOC in how long and has a pair of close wins?

You have to know your level, and make reasonable attempts to play up to--or slightly above--it. It's when you play down that you lose the respect

DVC didn't necessarily schedule W&J, the game was part of the PAC-MAC Challenge. Had each team from both leagues been in the series, then it would've been Thomas More against Del. Valley.

[Bombers798891]

+k to everyone on the last several pages for good info/debate and thoughts...see both sides of the issue and lean towards yanks last points...good stuff all in all everyone. pbr for instance is glad to see dvc taking on some of the "big boys" in OOC....wesley the last several years. W&J and Wesley this year....But if that doesn't help in the playoff rankings then you will see some teams never look to play any better competition. Granted DVC HC Clements quote of "we have to end up playing 1 of the big 4 anyway in the playoffs, so this lets us see where we are at and what we need to improve on...." has merit but some coaches from the east/south won't schedule tough OOC games and just pad their schedules w/ cream puffs if they don't see any consideration given for playoff rankings

I think there's also a line to be drawn between scheduling "cream puffs" and powerhouses. DVC scheduled W&J, who is very good. The better E8 and LL teams have tended to schedule each other in recent years.

I don't know what you gain from scheduling a team you're obviously inferior to. Did Fisher gain anything from losing those two to MUC? Unless we argue some down-the-road benefits that would be tough to link causation to, I don't know if there was any tangible benefit. They still had to start 4-0 this year and stomp everyone to get ranked, and they're barely ahead of a 3-0 Alfred team who's played no-one challenging OOC in how long and has a pair of close wins?

You have to know your level, and make reasonable attempts to play up to--or slightly above--it. It's when you play down that you lose the respect

DVC didn't necessarily schedule W&J, the game was part of the PAC-MAC Challenge. Had each team from both leagues been in the series, then it would've been Thomas More against Del. Valley.

Fair point. But Thomas More is even higher ranked than W&J, so it still gives DVC a high quality opponent that other East schools can't match

[Pat Coleman]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

I'm pro-facts. Facts don't say much nice about the East. It's just reality, Doid.

Regarding play vs MUC they don't say much nice about anyone excluding two or three teams nationally out of over 200.

Doid is correct Pat and so was dlip. You may not have an anti-east bias in your mind but it is clearly the way you come across at times. Believe it or not some of us may be able to give you some insight and feedback and even though you may not like it, it may actually be true. dlip knows he has learned tons from other posters on here but then again he is simply just a peon and lowly poster on these boards not the guru. How could he or doid expect you to take one of our observations seriously?

That's your perspective as a East homer. I get that. You're biased for the East as you should be. To you, the neutral guy is always going to look like he's anti-you because he's not as pro-you as you are.

Not going to convince anyone here in the heart of the East, I understand that. But it doesn't change reality. Only what happens on the field can change reality.

[Pat Coleman]

OK...where are the South Region teams lining up to play the East teams?  That works both ways you know...what evidence or facts do you have besides word of mouth that all of these "South Region" powers are lining up to play SJF, Ithaca, Rowan, Cortland, etc. and that these teams are turning them down to stick with "like-minded institutions" 

You're a Hartwick fan, right? Wesley has had to play nine-game schedules and play Gallaudet because you guys won't play them even though you have had mutual open dates. Wesley has proven with its regular-season schedule that it will take on all comers.

[fisheralum91]

Wow,
I came into this discussion at a bad time....
Ill come back ..........um...later.

[Yanks 99]

OK...where are the South Region teams lining up to play the East teams?  That works both ways you know...what evidence or facts do you have besides word of mouth that all of these "South Region" powers are lining up to play SJF, Ithaca, Rowan, Cortland, etc. and that these teams are turning them down to stick with "like-minded institutions"

You're a Hartwick fan, right? Wesley has had to play nine-game schedules and play Gallaudet because you guys won't play them even though you have had mutual open dates. Wesley has proven with its regular-season schedule that it will take on all comers.

I am a Hartwick fan...and I wish the administration there would agree to a tenth game.  That isn't the coaching staff's or the players fault...as I know...for a fact...that the coaches have been trying to get a tenth game approved for about 3 years now, with no success.  That still doesn't prove anything.  Right now, Wesley would be playing down to Wick...so there wouldn't even be a benefit for them to play Hartwick.  I wasn't even considering Wick when I made these comments, as we are no where near a national, regional, or even league power.  What would Hartwick have to do with my point on this one???

Don't we get the same benefit of the doubt when it comes to taking on all comers when we are talking about our best Region teams???  I mean, SJF took on MUC and Salisbury in the same season two years in a row...doesn't that stand for something???

[Jonny Utah]

Maybe its time for an east team to go out and play a North region team from another conference (SJF has already played MUC).  Go out and play North Central, Wittenburg, Wabash, etc.

I still don't have a problem having Mt. Union in the east.  Untill we see an eastern team get screwed out of a playoff spot because of it, I say let them stay.

Certainly an option for E8/LL teams who play 3-4 games OOC a year. I wonder though, how much the economy makes that difficult. Can teams afford the expenses for that kind of travel on the D-III level? What would it cost to say, get Ithaca to Wabash vs. Lycoming?

Yea I wonder what the limit is for bus trips vs. airline flights.  We flew to W&J back in the day but I see Wittenburg would be a 7 hour drive (probably too long as it is on the other side of Columbus).  W&J is only a six hour drive.

I don't know how much one flight or long trip every 2 years would be in terms of cost.

Then again I still don't see why it is so much of an issue.  Lycoming is one of Ithaca's closest games, and MAC teams are great non-conference opponents.  Play the teams that are close to you in the regular season and play whomever in the playoffs.  I still stick by the point that if you play a tough schedule and do well, you aren't going to get shafted from a playoff spot by Mount Union.  In fact, it still might help you.

[PBR...]

+k to everyone on the last several pages for good info/debate and thoughts...see both sides of the issue and lean towards yanks last points...good stuff all in all everyone. pbr for instance is glad to see dvc taking on some of the "big boys" in OOC....wesley the last several years. W&J and Wesley this year....But if that doesn't help in the playoff rankings then you will see some teams never look to play any better competition. Granted DVC HC Clements quote of "we have to end up playing 1 of the big 4 anyway in the playoffs, so this lets us see where we are at and what we need to improve on...." has merit but some coaches from the east/south won't schedule tough OOC games and just pad their schedules w/ cream puffs if they don't see any consideration given for playoff rankings

I think there's also a line to be drawn between scheduling "cream puffs" and powerhouses. DVC scheduled W&J, who is very good. The better E8 and LL teams have tended to schedule each other in recent years.

I don't know what you gain from scheduling a team you're obviously inferior to. Did Fisher gain anything from losing those two to MUC? Unless we argue some down-the-road benefits that would be tough to link causation to, I don't know if there was any tangible benefit. They still had to start 4-0 this year and stomp everyone to get ranked, and they're barely ahead of a 3-0 Alfred team who's played no-one challenging OOC in how long and has a pair of close wins?

You have to know your level, and make reasonable attempts to play up to--or slightly above--it. It's when you play down that you lose the respect

DVC didn't necessarily schedule W&J, the game was part of the PAC-MAC Challenge. Had each team from both leagues been in the series, then it would've been Thomas More against Del. Valley.

they didn't schedule it per se, but the way its set up chances are the top teams from each conference are going to play each other most of the time.

[PBR...]

OK...where are the South Region teams lining up to play the East teams?  That works both ways you know...what evidence or facts do you have besides word of mouth that all of these "South Region" powers are lining up to play SJF, Ithaca, Rowan, Cortland, etc. and that these teams are turning them down to stick with "like-minded institutions"

You're a Hartwick fan, right? Wesley has had to play nine-game schedules and play Gallaudet because you guys won't play them even though you have had mutual open dates. Wesley has proven with its regular-season schedule that it will take on all comers.

I am a Hartwick fan...and I wish the administration there would agree to a tenth game.  That isn't the coaching staff's or the players fault...as I know...for a fact...that the coaches have been trying to get a tenth game approved for about 3 years now, with no success.  That still doesn't prove anything.  Right now, Wesley would be playing down to Wick...so there wouldn't even be a benefit for them to play Hartwick.  I wasn't even considering Wick when I made these comments, as we are no where near a national, regional, or even league power.  What would Hartwick have to do with my point on this one???

Don't we get the same benefit of the doubt when it comes to taking on all comers when we are talking about our best Region teams???  I mean, SJF took on MUC and Salisbury in the same season two years in a row...doesn't that stand for something???

nope...dvc played wesley/salisbury/iona(granted they weren't very good for a IAA team) but got them no consideration at the end of the season for the at large berth. teams that played a much easier schedule and went undefeated got the at large nod

[Pat Coleman]

I think Yanks is talking about intent to schedule strong, rather than playoff criteria.

[Yanks 99]

OK...where are the South Region teams lining up to play the East teams?  That works both ways you know...what evidence or facts do you have besides word of mouth that all of these "South Region" powers are lining up to play SJF, Ithaca, Rowan, Cortland, etc. and that these teams are turning them down to stick with "like-minded institutions"

You're a Hartwick fan, right? Wesley has had to play nine-game schedules and play Gallaudet because you guys won't play them even though you have had mutual open dates. Wesley has proven with its regular-season schedule that it will take on all comers.

I am a Hartwick fan...and I wish the administration there would agree to a tenth game.  That isn't the coaching staff's or the players fault...as I know...for a fact...that the coaches have been trying to get a tenth game approved for about 3 years now, with no success.  That still doesn't prove anything.  Right now, Wesley would be playing down to Wick...so there wouldn't even be a benefit for them to play Hartwick.  I wasn't even considering Wick when I made these comments, as we are no where near a national, regional, or even league power.  What would Hartwick have to do with my point on this one???

Don't we get the same benefit of the doubt when it comes to taking on all comers when we are talking about our best Region teams???  I mean, SJF took on MUC and Salisbury in the same season two years in a row...doesn't that stand for something???

nope...dvc played wesley/salisbury/iona(granted they weren't very good for a IAA team) but got them no consideration at the end of the season for the at large berth. teams that played a much easier schedule and went undefeated got the at large nod

Great point...and I didn't mean to leave DVC out of the equation on this one.  Just more familiar with the E8 and LL schools.  So SJF and DVC get no credit for scheduling these games...but Wesley does?

[Bombers798891]

OK...where are the South Region teams lining up to play the East teams?  That works both ways you know...what evidence or facts do you have besides word of mouth that all of these "South Region" powers are lining up to play SJF, Ithaca, Rowan, Cortland, etc. and that these teams are turning them down to stick with "like-minded institutions" 

You're a Hartwick fan, right? Wesley has had to play nine-game schedules and play Gallaudet because you guys won't play them even though you have had mutual open dates. Wesley has proven with its regular-season schedule that it will take on all comers.

Wick and Wesley? Since when is Hartwick representative of good teams in the East? They're 24-18 in the last 4+ years.

Obviously, one of the best, if not THE best, team in the South could kill a mediocre East team. What does that prove? Wesley's gone 50-6 over the past 4+ years. It's not exactly two teams on the same level.

[Yanks 99]

OK...where are the South Region teams lining up to play the East teams?  That works both ways you know...what evidence or facts do you have besides word of mouth that all of these "South Region" powers are lining up to play SJF, Ithaca, Rowan, Cortland, etc. and that these teams are turning them down to stick with "like-minded institutions" 

You're a Hartwick fan, right? Wesley has had to play nine-game schedules and play Gallaudet because you guys won't play them even though you have had mutual open dates. Wesley has proven with its regular-season schedule that it will take on all comers.

Wick and Wesley? Since when is Hartwick representative of good teams in the East? They're 24-18 in the last 4+ years.

Obviously, one of the best, if not THE best, team in the South could kill a mediocre East team. What does that prove? Wesley's gone 50-6 over the past 4+ years. It's not exactly two teams on the same level.

Yeah...I'm still a bit confused on how Hartwick got brought up in all of this...as I never mentioned them or used them as any type of measuring stick for strength of the East Region.

[Bombers798891]

I think Yanks is talking about intent to schedule strong, rather than playoff criteria.

Fair point, but is there a thing a scheduling TOO strong? Wick would lose by 50 to Wesley. They just got stomped by Norwich and with the exception of the Boltus years, have never been a major player in the national scene.

Fisher or IC might be a better pick, or Springfield, of we could figure out their cycle of good vs. crappy teams

[Pat Coleman]

OK...where are the South Region teams lining up to play the East teams?  That works both ways you know...what evidence or facts do you have besides word of mouth that all of these "South Region" powers are lining up to play SJF, Ithaca, Rowan, Cortland, etc. and that these teams are turning them down to stick with "like-minded institutions" 

You're a Hartwick fan, right? Wesley has had to play nine-game schedules and play Gallaudet because you guys won't play them even though you have had mutual open dates. Wesley has proven with its regular-season schedule that it will take on all comers.

Wick and Wesley? Since when is Hartwick representative of good teams in the East? They're 24-18 in the last 4+ years.

Obviously, one of the best, if not THE best, team in the South could kill a mediocre East team. What does that prove? Wesley's gone 50-6 over the past 4+ years. It's not exactly two teams on the same level.

I was providing him with an example close to home that he could relate to. If Wesley's willing to go to Capital to play, I am sure they are willing to go to Ithaca or Hobart.

Now I'm going to address Yanks99: Delaware Valley gets tons of credit. They schedule strong and they represent against that schedule. I think their ranking speaks to that, doesn't it?