FB: Empire 8

[Yanks 99]

I think I'd just like some sample sizes taken into account. It's meaningful (to me) to say that through hundreds/thousands of regular season games in the past four years, the East has failed to distinguish itself. That's why I agree with Pat's premise that the East is down and disagree with the idea that he's biased. I don't always agree with Pat, but read his posts (even ones not related to the E8) and I've never thought he showed bias.

But a dozen or so games against MUC seems to be a bad piece of supporting evidence for that premise. I think MUC and UWW are too good to really use as barometers for anything nation-wide. And even though I've done it myself, comparing scores is tricky. If the 2007 Bombers game MUC their closest game of the year to that point, does that mean they're better than the rest of the OAC? Doubtful, but how can we know either way?

I agree...using MUC as the barometer is not a great example...but it is the only one we really have, and the one that Pat brings up often.  Again...as I have stated a few times today already...I think it is the North Region that gets the biggest pass in all of this.  Yes...the East Region teams have not been successful against MUC.  Their record against them in the past 11 years is 1-12.  But the North Region teams have a record of 1-122 during this same timeframe.  That is a pretty big freaking sample of lack of success.

That's because you're not putting that stat into context. You keep trotting it out, but it's not a valid comparison, which is why people ignore it. That 122 losses includes dozens of losses against mediocre and bad OAC teams and not playoff teams which is all they get from the East.

You need to compare similar teams. I doubt that the North Region playoff record against MUC is that much worse than the East. Which again, pretty much proves what? That no-one can expect to have sustained success against MUC but Whitewater

If MUC was in the NJAC, the East would be 1-122 against them too (depending on how Rowan did). Would anyone from the E8 have taken them? Maybe 2006 Fisher if they were at home, but after that? Not likely. Who in the Liberty League would have beaten them? No-one.

I think RPI in 2003 could have possibly stayed with them the year that they lost to St. John's in the semis (even Ithaca who lost to RPI in the quarters, and Springfield could have played them tough).  RPI played St. John's tough for a half before it got away and they lost 27-10 (I think that was the score).  St. John's beat MUC 24-6 that year in the Stagg Bowl.

[Bombers798891]

I think I'd just like some sample sizes taken into account. It's meaningful (to me) to say that through hundreds/thousands of regular season games in the past four years, the East has failed to distinguish itself. That's why I agree with Pat's premise that the East is down and disagree with the idea that he's biased. I don't always agree with Pat, but read his posts (even ones not related to the E8) and I've never thought he showed bias.

But a dozen or so games against MUC seems to be a bad piece of supporting evidence for that premise. I think MUC and UWW are too good to really use as barometers for anything nation-wide. And even though I've done it myself, comparing scores is tricky. If the 2007 Bombers game MUC their closest game of the year to that point, does that mean they're better than the rest of the OAC? Doubtful, but how can we know either way?

I agree...using MUC as the barometer is not a great example...but it is the only one we really have, and the one that Pat brings up often.  Again...as I have stated a few times today already...I think it is the North Region that gets the biggest pass in all of this.  Yes...the East Region teams have not been successful against MUC.  Their record against them in the past 11 years is 1-12.  But the North Region teams have a record of 1-122 during this same timeframe.  That is a pretty big freaking sample of lack of success.

That's because you're not putting that stat into context. You keep trotting it out, but it's not a valid comparison, which is why people ignore it. That 122 losses includes dozens of losses against mediocre and bad OAC teams and not playoff teams which is all they get from the East.

You need to compare similar teams. I doubt that the North Region playoff record against MUC is that much worse than the East. Which again, pretty much proves what? That no-one can expect to have sustained success against MUC but Whitewater

If MUC was in the NJAC, the East would be 1-122 against them too (depending on how Rowan did). Would anyone from the E8 have taken them? Maybe 2006 Fisher if they were at home, but after that? Not likely. Who in the Liberty League would have beaten them? No-one.

It still doesn't explain their overall lack of success against a team they see every single year.

That knife cuts both ways. They see Mount, but Mount sees them.

Some of it is talent-based, but why do you think their games against Fisher have gone from 12 to 30 to 42 points? Because Mount's seen these guys, and they can prepare. Ithaca came in in 2007 and Mount had never seen them and (In my opinion) hadn't played anyone as good. So Ithaca took the ball, and drove down the field on them on the opening possession. Even though the 2008 IC team was better--and arguably MUC's team was slightly worse--I think IC loses a rematch that year by more than 24.

[Yanks 99]

I think I'd just like some sample sizes taken into account. It's meaningful (to me) to say that through hundreds/thousands of regular season games in the past four years, the East has failed to distinguish itself. That's why I agree with Pat's premise that the East is down and disagree with the idea that he's biased. I don't always agree with Pat, but read his posts (even ones not related to the E8) and I've never thought he showed bias.

But a dozen or so games against MUC seems to be a bad piece of supporting evidence for that premise. I think MUC and UWW are too good to really use as barometers for anything nation-wide. And even though I've done it myself, comparing scores is tricky. If the 2007 Bombers game MUC their closest game of the year to that point, does that mean they're better than the rest of the OAC? Doubtful, but how can we know either way?

I agree...using MUC as the barometer is not a great example...but it is the only one we really have, and the one that Pat brings up often.  Again...as I have stated a few times today already...I think it is the North Region that gets the biggest pass in all of this.  Yes...the East Region teams have not been successful against MUC.  Their record against them in the past 11 years is 1-12.  But the North Region teams have a record of 1-122 during this same timeframe.  That is a pretty big freaking sample of lack of success.

That's because you're not putting that stat into context. You keep trotting it out, but it's not a valid comparison, which is why people ignore it. That 122 losses includes dozens of losses against mediocre and bad OAC teams and not playoff teams which is all they get from the East.

You need to compare similar teams. I doubt that the North Region playoff record against MUC is that much worse than the East. Which again, pretty much proves what? That no-one can expect to have sustained success against MUC but Whitewater

If MUC was in the NJAC, the East would be 1-122 against them too (depending on how Rowan did). Would anyone from the E8 have taken them? Maybe 2006 Fisher if they were at home, but after that? Not likely. Who in the Liberty League would have beaten them? No-one.

It still doesn't explain their overall lack of success against a team they see every single year.

That knife cuts both ways. They see Mount, but Mount sees them.

Some of it is talent-based, but why do you think their games against Fisher have gone from 12 to 30 to 42 points? Because Mount's seen these guys, and they can prepare. Ithaca came in in 2007 and Mount had never seen them and (In my opinion) hadn't played anyone as good. So Ithaca took the ball, and drove down the field on them on the opening possession. Even though the 2008 IC team was better--and arguably MUC's team was slightly worse--I think IC loses a rematch that year by more than 24.

I know man...come on...glass half full Bombers!!!

[SJFF82]

I don't think Pat is anti-east.

Seriously? Where have you been? It's a nice thing to say, but Pat is most definitely anti-East.

I'm pro-facts. Facts don't say much nice about the East. It's just reality, Doid.

Here are the facts....MUC is god.....UWW is jesus....and everyone else is everyone else.  this Region v. Region debate is illusory, because its only those 2 teams.  If the East is weak merely because MUC and UWW are not in the East then you are right, we cant debate 'you'.  If you want to play fair and actually evaluate the teams from the East v. the teams from the other regions as a whole, then we can debate.

[Jonny Utah]

I guess the question begs:
If there is an East team that is 10-0 does University of Mount Union still get shipped east?
We know for sure 9-1 means having to travel to Alliance.

If Suny-Maritime goes 10-0, Mt. Union will be shipped to the east.

If SJF goes 10-0 and blows out Alfred, Ithaca and Springfield it might happen.

Then again we all forget it isn't the top teams in the east that determines where MUC goes, it is the other teams from across the country which may be ranked higher than the undefeated east team.  The top 7 teams in the country are currently undefeated and do not play one another so their is a possiblity that all seven could end up 10-0.  SJF would not pass them in the ranking by then so why have St. Thomas go to Mt. Union in the semi-finals when maybe SJF should go there?

[Jonny Utah]

I think I'd just like some sample sizes taken into account. It's meaningful (to me) to say that through hundreds/thousands of regular season games in the past four years, the East has failed to distinguish itself. That's why I agree with Pat's premise that the East is down and disagree with the idea that he's biased. I don't always agree with Pat, but read his posts (even ones not related to the E8) and I've never thought he showed bias.

But a dozen or so games against MUC seems to be a bad piece of supporting evidence for that premise. I think MUC and UWW are too good to really use as barometers for anything nation-wide. And even though I've done it myself, comparing scores is tricky. If the 2007 Bombers game MUC their closest game of the year to that point, does that mean they're better than the rest of the OAC? Doubtful, but how can we know either way?

I agree...using MUC as the barometer is not a great example...but it is the only one we really have, and the one that Pat brings up often.  Again...as I have stated a few times today already...I think it is the North Region that gets the biggest pass in all of this.  Yes...the East Region teams have not been successful against MUC.  Their record against them in the past 11 years is 1-12.  But the North Region teams have a record of 1-122 during this same timeframe.  That is a pretty big freaking sample of lack of success.

That's because you're not putting that stat into context. You keep trotting it out, but it's not a valid comparison, which is why people ignore it. That 122 losses includes dozens of losses against mediocre and bad OAC teams and not playoff teams which is all they get from the East.

You need to compare similar teams. I doubt that the North Region playoff record against MUC is that much worse than the East. Which again, pretty much proves what? That no-one can expect to have sustained success against MUC but Whitewater

If MUC was in the NJAC, the East would be 1-122 against them too (depending on how Rowan did). Would anyone from the E8 have taken them? Maybe 2006 Fisher if they were at home, but after that? Not likely. Who in the Liberty League would have beaten them? No-one.

It still doesn't explain their overall lack of success against a team they see every single year.

That knife cuts both ways. They see Mount, but Mount sees them.

Some of it is talent-based, but why do you think their games against Fisher have gone from 12 to 30 to 42 points? Because Mount's seen these guys, and they can prepare. Ithaca came in in 2007 and Mount had never seen them and (In my opinion) hadn't played anyone as good. So Ithaca took the ball, and drove down the field on them on the opening possession. Even though the 2008 IC team was better--and arguably MUC's team was slightly worse--I think IC loses a rematch that year by more than 24.

bombers don't you think the 2007 defense was better than the 2008 defense?

[Bombers798891]

I think I'd just like some sample sizes taken into account. It's meaningful (to me) to say that through hundreds/thousands of regular season games in the past four years, the East has failed to distinguish itself. That's why I agree with Pat's premise that the East is down and disagree with the idea that he's biased. I don't always agree with Pat, but read his posts (even ones not related to the E8) and I've never thought he showed bias.

But a dozen or so games against MUC seems to be a bad piece of supporting evidence for that premise. I think MUC and UWW are too good to really use as barometers for anything nation-wide. And even though I've done it myself, comparing scores is tricky. If the 2007 Bombers game MUC their closest game of the year to that point, does that mean they're better than the rest of the OAC? Doubtful, but how can we know either way?

I agree...using MUC as the barometer is not a great example...but it is the only one we really have, and the one that Pat brings up often.  Again...as I have stated a few times today already...I think it is the North Region that gets the biggest pass in all of this.  Yes...the East Region teams have not been successful against MUC.  Their record against them in the past 11 years is 1-12.  But the North Region teams have a record of 1-122 during this same timeframe.  That is a pretty big freaking sample of lack of success.

That's because you're not putting that stat into context. You keep trotting it out, but it's not a valid comparison, which is why people ignore it. That 122 losses includes dozens of losses against mediocre and bad OAC teams and not playoff teams which is all they get from the East.

You need to compare similar teams. I doubt that the North Region playoff record against MUC is that much worse than the East. Which again, pretty much proves what? That no-one can expect to have sustained success against MUC but Whitewater

If MUC was in the NJAC, the East would be 1-122 against them too (depending on how Rowan did). Would anyone from the E8 have taken them? Maybe 2006 Fisher if they were at home, but after that? Not likely. Who in the Liberty League would have beaten them? No-one.

It still doesn't explain their overall lack of success against a team they see every single year.

That knife cuts both ways. They see Mount, but Mount sees them.

Some of it is talent-based, but why do you think their games against Fisher have gone from 12 to 30 to 42 points? Because Mount's seen these guys, and they can prepare. Ithaca came in in 2007 and Mount had never seen them and (In my opinion) hadn't played anyone as good. So Ithaca took the ball, and drove down the field on them on the opening possession. Even though the 2008 IC team was better--and arguably MUC's team was slightly worse--I think IC loses a rematch that year by more than 24.

I know man...come on...glass half full Bombers!!!

You must be new. I am the resident IC/East Region cynic. I think the East stinks as a whole and they deserve it. I think the E8 has been overrated the last two seasons (and is this year), and I think the Bombers plateaued 15 years ago, and poke their heads out once ever five years or so ('03, '08)

[Yanks 99]

I think I'd just like some sample sizes taken into account. It's meaningful (to me) to say that through hundreds/thousands of regular season games in the past four years, the East has failed to distinguish itself. That's why I agree with Pat's premise that the East is down and disagree with the idea that he's biased. I don't always agree with Pat, but read his posts (even ones not related to the E8) and I've never thought he showed bias.

But a dozen or so games against MUC seems to be a bad piece of supporting evidence for that premise. I think MUC and UWW are too good to really use as barometers for anything nation-wide. And even though I've done it myself, comparing scores is tricky. If the 2007 Bombers game MUC their closest game of the year to that point, does that mean they're better than the rest of the OAC? Doubtful, but how can we know either way?

I agree...using MUC as the barometer is not a great example...but it is the only one we really have, and the one that Pat brings up often.  Again...as I have stated a few times today already...I think it is the North Region that gets the biggest pass in all of this.  Yes...the East Region teams have not been successful against MUC.  Their record against them in the past 11 years is 1-12.  But the North Region teams have a record of 1-122 during this same timeframe.  That is a pretty big freaking sample of lack of success.

That's because you're not putting that stat into context. You keep trotting it out, but it's not a valid comparison, which is why people ignore it. That 122 losses includes dozens of losses against mediocre and bad OAC teams and not playoff teams which is all they get from the East.

You need to compare similar teams. I doubt that the North Region playoff record against MUC is that much worse than the East. Which again, pretty much proves what? That no-one can expect to have sustained success against MUC but Whitewater

If MUC was in the NJAC, the East would be 1-122 against them too (depending on how Rowan did). Would anyone from the E8 have taken them? Maybe 2006 Fisher if they were at home, but after that? Not likely. Who in the Liberty League would have beaten them? No-one.

It still doesn't explain their overall lack of success against a team they see every single year.

That knife cuts both ways. They see Mount, but Mount sees them.

Some of it is talent-based, but why do you think their games against Fisher have gone from 12 to 30 to 42 points? Because Mount's seen these guys, and they can prepare. Ithaca came in in 2007 and Mount had never seen them and (In my opinion) hadn't played anyone as good. So Ithaca took the ball, and drove down the field on them on the opening possession. Even though the 2008 IC team was better--and arguably MUC's team was slightly worse--I think IC loses a rematch that year by more than 24.

I know man...come on...glass half full Bombers!!!

You must be new. I am the resident IC/East Region cynic. I think the East stinks as a whole and they deserve it. I think the E8 has been overrated the last two seasons (and is this year), and I think the Bombers plateaued 15 years ago, and poke their heads out once ever five years or so ('03, '08)

Ha...I am aware...

[PBR...]

would love for wesley or someone else (sjf/dvc) be the #1 seed in the east this year...don't think it will happen but 1 can dream....

[Bombers798891]

I think I'd just like some sample sizes taken into account. It's meaningful (to me) to say that through hundreds/thousands of regular season games in the past four years, the East has failed to distinguish itself. That's why I agree with Pat's premise that the East is down and disagree with the idea that he's biased. I don't always agree with Pat, but read his posts (even ones not related to the E8) and I've never thought he showed bias.

But a dozen or so games against MUC seems to be a bad piece of supporting evidence for that premise. I think MUC and UWW are too good to really use as barometers for anything nation-wide. And even though I've done it myself, comparing scores is tricky. If the 2007 Bombers game MUC their closest game of the year to that point, does that mean they're better than the rest of the OAC? Doubtful, but how can we know either way?

I agree...using MUC as the barometer is not a great example...but it is the only one we really have, and the one that Pat brings up often.  Again...as I have stated a few times today already...I think it is the North Region that gets the biggest pass in all of this.  Yes...the East Region teams have not been successful against MUC.  Their record against them in the past 11 years is 1-12.  But the North Region teams have a record of 1-122 during this same timeframe.  That is a pretty big freaking sample of lack of success.

That's because you're not putting that stat into context. You keep trotting it out, but it's not a valid comparison, which is why people ignore it. That 122 losses includes dozens of losses against mediocre and bad OAC teams and not playoff teams which is all they get from the East.

You need to compare similar teams. I doubt that the North Region playoff record against MUC is that much worse than the East. Which again, pretty much proves what? That no-one can expect to have sustained success against MUC but Whitewater

If MUC was in the NJAC, the East would be 1-122 against them too (depending on how Rowan did). Would anyone from the E8 have taken them? Maybe 2006 Fisher if they were at home, but after that? Not likely. Who in the Liberty League would have beaten them? No-one.

It still doesn't explain their overall lack of success against a team they see every single year.

That knife cuts both ways. They see Mount, but Mount sees them.

Some of it is talent-based, but why do you think their games against Fisher have gone from 12 to 30 to 42 points? Because Mount's seen these guys, and they can prepare. Ithaca came in in 2007 and Mount had never seen them and (In my opinion) hadn't played anyone as good. So Ithaca took the ball, and drove down the field on them on the opening possession. Even though the 2008 IC team was better--and arguably MUC's team was slightly worse--I think IC loses a rematch that year by more than 24.

bombers don't you think the 2007 defense was better than the 2008 defense?

Probably. And Juvan was better. But I think the 2008 offensive line was the best in the region. Seriously, Bergerstock would have broken every record in the book that season had he stayed healthy, and Donovan and Baez (To say nothing of Wittman, Parker or Scott) were light years better than him. That O-line set the tone. I'd also take the 2004 team in the playoffs over both

[maxpower]

I think I'd just like some sample sizes taken into account. It's meaningful (to me) to say that through hundreds/thousands of regular season games in the past four years, the East has failed to distinguish itself. That's why I agree with Pat's premise that the East is down and disagree with the idea that he's biased. I don't always agree with Pat, but read his posts (even ones not related to the E8) and I've never thought he showed bias.

But a dozen or so games against MUC seems to be a bad piece of supporting evidence for that premise. I think MUC and UWW are too good to really use as barometers for anything nation-wide. And even though I've done it myself, comparing scores is tricky. If the 2007 Bombers game MUC their closest game of the year to that point, does that mean they're better than the rest of the OAC? Doubtful, but how can we know either way?

I agree...using MUC as the barometer is not a great example...but it is the only one we really have, and the one that Pat brings up often.  Again...as I have stated a few times today already...I think it is the North Region that gets the biggest pass in all of this.  Yes...the East Region teams have not been successful against MUC.  Their record against them in the past 11 years is 1-12.  But the North Region teams have a record of 1-122 during this same timeframe.  That is a pretty big freaking sample of lack of success.

That's because you're not putting that stat into context. You keep trotting it out, but it's not a valid comparison, which is why people ignore it. That 122 losses includes dozens of losses against mediocre and bad OAC teams and not playoff teams which is all they get from the East.

You need to compare similar teams. I doubt that the North Region playoff record against MUC is that much worse than the East. Which again, pretty much proves what? That no-one can expect to have sustained success against MUC but Whitewater

If MUC was in the NJAC, the East would be 1-122 against them too (depending on how Rowan did). Would anyone from the E8 have taken them? Maybe 2006 Fisher if they were at home, but after that? Not likely. Who in the Liberty League would have beaten them? No-one.

It still doesn't explain their overall lack of success against a team they see every single year.

That knife cuts both ways. They see Mount, but Mount sees them.

Some of it is talent-based, but why do you think their games against Fisher have gone from 12 to 30 to 42 points? Because Mount's seen these guys, and they can prepare. Ithaca came in in 2007 and Mount had never seen them and (In my opinion) hadn't played anyone as good. So Ithaca took the ball, and drove down the field on them on the opening possession. Even though the 2008 IC team was better--and arguably MUC's team was slightly worse--I think IC loses a rematch that year by more than 24.

bombers don't you think the 2007 defense was better than the 2008 defense?

Probably. And Juvan was better. But I think the 2008 offensive line was the best in the region. Seriously, Bergerstock would have broken every record in the book that season had he stayed healthy, and Donovan and Baez (To say nothing of Wittman, Parker or Scott) were light years better than him. That O-line set the tone. I'd also take the 2004 team in the playoffs over both

Ah for the days of Felicetti... I feel like a Bills fan (which I am) longing for Jim Kelly and Andre Reed (which i am)...

[maxpower]

Rams,
I think that in an ideal world there would be an upstate superconference.
We have had that discussion many times.
Just dont see it happening.
Not in my lifetime anyway.

JQV and I have had the discussion about whether IC should have stayed independent all those years ago... it makes me wonder about whether adding another possibility for the playoffs (pool A) led to a certain lax-ness on Ithaca's part. I mean, you can afford to let Lycoming beat you by 3 on the road if you know you will run the table in-conference (which in the early 2000s pre-Mark Robinson was practically a guarantee). I wonder if someone can comment on whether the switch to conference play may have affected recruiting and/or preparation in such away that hurt Ithaca's performance regionally and nationally....

[AUKaz00]

Maybe its time for an east team to go out and play a North region team from another conference (SJF has already played MUC).  Go out and play North Central, Wittenburg, Wabash, etc.

I still don't have a problem having Mt. Union in the east.  Untill we see an eastern team get screwed out of a playoff spot because of it, I say let them stay.

Certainly an option for E8/LL teams who play 3-4 games OOC a year. I wonder though, how much the economy makes that difficult. Can teams afford the expenses for that kind of travel on the D-III level? What would it cost to say, get Ithaca to Wabash vs. Lycoming?

I've wanted Alfred to schedule a home and home with Mississippi College for years, just so I'd have an excuse to go down to Jackson and visit my brother-in-law.  A Saxons-Choctaws series would be exactly the kind of game to add to this belabored conversation.

[PBR...]

Maybe its time for an east team to go out and play a North region team from another conference (SJF has already played MUC).  Go out and play North Central, Wittenburg, Wabash, etc.

I still don't have a problem having Mt. Union in the east.  Untill we see an eastern team get screwed out of a playoff spot because of it, I say let them stay.

Certainly an option for E8/LL teams who play 3-4 games OOC a year. I wonder though, how much the economy makes that difficult. Can teams afford the expenses for that kind of travel on the D-III level? What would it cost to say, get Ithaca to Wabash vs. Lycoming?

I've wanted Alfred to schedule a home and home with Mississippi College for years, just so I'd have an excuse to go down to Jackson and visit my brother-in-law.  A Saxons-Choctaws series would be exactly the kind of game to add to this belabored conversation.

would the team all fit in the Pep-mobile(minivan) for a road trip to miss...LOL

[Jonny Utah]

Maybe its time for an east team to go out and play a North region team from another conference (SJF has already played MUC).  Go out and play North Central, Wittenburg, Wabash, etc.

I still don't have a problem having Mt. Union in the east.  Untill we see an eastern team get screwed out of a playoff spot because of it, I say let them stay.

Certainly an option for E8/LL teams who play 3-4 games OOC a year. I wonder though, how much the economy makes that difficult. Can teams afford the expenses for that kind of travel on the D-III level? What would it cost to say, get Ithaca to Wabash vs. Lycoming?

I've wanted Alfred to schedule a home and home with Mississippi College for years, just so I'd have an excuse to go down to Jackson and visit my brother-in-law.  A Saxons-Choctaws series would be exactly the kind of game to add to this belabored conversation.

I'm waiting for the big Ithaca/Mt. Ida series too!  (I used to live 5 minutes from Mt. Ida but now actually live 10 minutes from Curry)