FB: Empire 8

[lewdogg11]

This is getting out of hand here.  I read through some of this debate, and there are a few guys in here that definitely just don't see the big picture, or they just don't want to believe it.  There have been some East teams that maybe could have had a major impact(Rowan for a bunch of years, '03 RPI, a few SJF teams, etc) in other regions against other powers outside of UWW and MUC, but for the most part, as a whole, the East can NOT hold a candle to the rest of the country.  

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

(On a side note, my pick as the top team to actually have been able to make a run at some top tier teams was Springfiled '03, but they dropped the ball to RPI.  That team was flat out scary)

+k, that's another thing that's being overlooked with MUC; football in Ohio is just a different thing, it's like Texas in that way. and the MUC roster is, i'd say, about half native ohioans, which is pretty remarkable when you consider how much places like OSU, U Ohio, Miami of Ohio, or Dayton must draw...

Stereotypically and Regionally speaking, people from the midwest are more prone to stay in the midwest too.  So for most kids not getting a full boat somewhere else, winning national championships at MUC is pretty enticing.

[Bombers798891]

This is getting out of hand here.  I read through some of this debate, and there are a few guys in here that definitely just don't see the big picture, or they just don't want to believe it.  There have been some East teams that maybe could have had a major impact(Rowan for a bunch of years, '03 RPI, a few SJF teams, etc) in other regions against other powers outside of UWW and MUC, but for the most part, as a whole, the East can NOT hold a candle to the rest of the country.  

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

(On a side note, my pick as the top team to actually have been able to make a run at some top tier teams was Springfiled '03, but they dropped the ball to RPI.  That team was flat out scary)

Springfield was nasty in 2003. They KILLED Ithaca 51-22 that season, and that was a good Ithaca team

[sjfcards]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I have traveled all around the country, and I am always up for some local sports, so I have seen high school football all over the country, and there is no argument against this fact. I don't know why there seems to be pockets of football talent in other regions of the country and even in individual states (IMHO the best states are FL, TX, CA, OH (in order). But it is clear that high school football in Upstate NY just does not measure up to other areas of the country. Is it school size? Athletic department funding? something else?

[Knightstalker]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I have traveled all around the country, and I am always up for some local sports, so I have seen high school football all over the country, and there is no argument against this fact. I don't know why there seems to be pockets of football talent in other regions of the country and even in individual states (IMHO the best states are FL, TX, CA, OH (in order). But it is clear that high school football in Upstate NY just does not measure up to other areas of the country. Is it school size? Athletic department funding? something else?

There is nothing else going on of Friday nights or Saturday afternoons in these states?

[Yanks 99]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I have traveled all around the country, and I am always up for some local sports, so I have seen high school football all over the country, and there is no argument against this fact. I don't know why there seems to be pockets of football talent in other regions of the country and even in individual states (IMHO the best states are FL, TX, CA, OH (in order). But it is clear that high school football in Upstate NY just does not measure up to other areas of the country. Is it school size? Athletic department funding? something else?

There is nothing else going on of Friday nights or Saturday afternoons in these states?

Hell...not in Texas...

[maxpower]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I have traveled all around the country, and I am always up for some local sports, so I have seen high school football all over the country, and there is no argument against this fact. I don't know why there seems to be pockets of football talent in other regions of the country and even in individual states (IMHO the best states are FL, TX, CA, OH (in order). But it is clear that high school football in Upstate NY just does not measure up to other areas of the country. Is it school size? Athletic department funding? something else?

I'm from Rochester, and the sport hierarchy in terms of attention the team got and prestige for success, if I can recall, was:

1) Lacrosse (this was probably just my school, Irondequoit, which had a badass lacrosse team)
2) Basketball
3) Hockey, even, we got big crowds at playoff hockey games
4) Football. Homecoming was a big crowd, i never even heard of anyone going to other games.

[Bombers798891]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I have traveled all around the country, and I am always up for some local sports, so I have seen high school football all over the country, and there is no argument against this fact. I don't know why there seems to be pockets of football talent in other regions of the country and even in individual states (IMHO the best states are FL, TX, CA, OH (in order). But it is clear that high school football in Upstate NY just does not measure up to other areas of the country. Is it school size? Athletic department funding? something else?

The presence of sports like lacrosse and hockey explains a bunch of it. Here in Ithaca, there's nothing to speak of, football-wise, on the pee-wee level. Kids here don't grow up playing football. They grow up playing hockey and lax. I remember talking to I-High football coaches who would get players and say things like "We have to spend so much time teaching them the basics of the sport." So I think it's a question of, "Are your elite athletes playing football at a young age, or being pushed into other sports"?

Even a kid like Jeff Welch, who was local and very good--had offers from some Ivy's--was a lax guy in HS (He wrestled too). Now, he played two sports in college, but some guys may get pushed to pick one sport and opt for lax or hockey

[Doid23]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I certainly don't disagree that HS Football in the Southeast, California, Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania (don't forget PA) etc. is at a different level than other places, and certainly the Northeast.

But we're talking about DIII football here, so why aren't there a plethora of powerhouse DIII programs in Texas? Or California? Or Florida? One fact doesn't necessarily correlate to another. The talent in Wisconsin certainly isn't on par with those states, yet UWW is a powerhouse.

[Doid23]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I have traveled all around the country, and I am always up for some local sports, so I have seen high school football all over the country, and there is no argument against this fact. I don't know why there seems to be pockets of football talent in other regions of the country and even in individual states (IMHO the best states are FL, TX, CA, OH (in order). But it is clear that high school football in Upstate NY just does not measure up to other areas of the country. Is it school size? Athletic department funding? something else?

But wasn't this all true back before the rise of MUC/ UWW? Yet the east was competitive with the rest of the country back then. One of the points that many on this thread have made is that if you take away MUC and UWW, the DIII landscape is probably the same as it ever was, with regions ebbing and flowing throughout periods. MUC and UWW have distorted that at the top.

[SJFF82]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I certainly don't disagree that HS Football in the Southeast, California, Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania (don't forget PA) etc. is at a different level than other places, and certainly the Northeast.

But we're talking about DIII football here, so why aren't there a plethora of powerhouse DIII programs in Texas? Or California? Or Florida? One fact doesn't necessarily correlate to another. The talent in Wisconsin certainly isn't on par with those states, yet UWW is a powerhouse.

Careful Doid...you are getting dangerously close to using logic to support an argument on here....and that might throw some for a whirl...

[SJFF82]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I have traveled all around the country, and I am always up for some local sports, so I have seen high school football all over the country, and there is no argument against this fact. I don't know why there seems to be pockets of football talent in other regions of the country and even in individual states (IMHO the best states are FL, TX, CA, OH (in order). But it is clear that high school football in Upstate NY just does not measure up to other areas of the country. Is it school size? Athletic department funding? something else?

But wasn't this all true back before the rise of MUC/ UWW? Yet the east was competitive with the rest of the country. One of the points that many on this thread have made is that if you take away MUC and UWW, the DIII landscape is probably the same as it ever was, with regions ebbing and flowing throughout periods. MUC and UWW have distorted that at the top.

that is correct....I laid this out last year over the course of one of these "the East sucks" debates.   When you simply try to reward MUC by shifting them to the East, what you are really doing is exposing how weak the North is WITHOUT them.

I dont have the time right now to check, but I am quite certain that a 7 seed has knocked out the 'fake' #1 in the North twice in the past 5 seasons, or something like that.  

[Knightstalker]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I certainly don't disagree that HS Football in the Southeast, California, Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania (don't forget PA) etc. is at a different level than other places, and certainly the Northeast.

But we're talking about DIII football here, so why aren't there a plethora of powerhouse DIII programs in Texas? Or California? Or Florida? One fact doesn't necessarily correlate to another. The talent in Wisconsin certainly isn't on par with those states, yet UWW is a powerhouse.

WI is a good football state a better basketball state, the entire midwest region is football territory.  The reason there aren't a plethora of D-III powerhouses in the states you mention is due to a lack of schools.  The schools that are in TX are pretty good, just 600 miles apart.

UWW is just the most recent team to challenge Mount.  Mount has been on top for something like 18 years and there have been some teams that challenged them for a while but none has sustained Mounts dominance.

[Doid23]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

I certainly don't disagree that HS Football in the Southeast, California, Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania (don't forget PA) etc. is at a different level than other places, and certainly the Northeast.

But we're talking about DIII football here, so why aren't there a plethora of powerhouse DIII programs in Texas? Or California? Or Florida? One fact doesn't necessarily correlate to another. The talent in Wisconsin certainly isn't on par with those states, yet UWW is a powerhouse.

WI is a good football state a better basketball state, the entire midwest region is football territory.  The reason there aren't a plethora of D-III powerhouses in the states you mention is due to a lack of schools.  The schools that are in TX are pretty good, just 600 miles apart.

UWW is just the most recent team to challenge Mount.  Mount has been on top for something like 18 years and there have been some teams that challenged them for a while but none has sustained Mounts dominance.

Agreed, but where are all of the Texas athletes in DIII schools outside of Texas?  There are 9 DIII football schools in Texas. I'd put the E8 or NJAC schools up against them, and they would fare well.

Also, Ohio has always been a strong high school football state, why wasn't there a MUC before this? There are plenty of DIII schools in Ohio, why aren't they all like MUC? I'd argue that if you removed MUC, the North does have that ebb and flow, just like other regions, and that the East is similar.

No, MUC and UWW are doing something fundamentally different than other schools, and, no, I don't mean cheating. I mean a different focus on football, more funding, academic admissions policies, etc. Nothing wrong with that, but certainly the only reasonable way to explain the discrepency, not based on location.

[Bombers798891]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

But we're talking about DIII football here, so why aren't there a plethora of powerhouse DIII programs in Texas? Or California? Or Florida? One fact doesn't necessarily correlate to another. The talent in Wisconsin certainly isn't on par with those states, yet UWW is a powerhouse.

Football programs by Division

Texas
D-IA: 10
D-IAA: 7
D-II: 8
NAIA: 2

Total: 27

California
D-IA: 7
D-1AA: 4
D-II: 1
NAIA: 1

Total: 13

Florida
D-IA: 7
D-1AA: 3
D-II: 0
NAIA: 0

Total: 10

Wisconsin
D1-A: 1
D-IAA: 0
D-II: 0
NAIA: 0

Total: 1

Where are you going to play football if you're from Wisconsin and you want to stay in state? Either Madison or a D-III school. Look how many options you have in Texas, Florida and California. Dozens. It may be a smaller pool, but they're not being pilfered by as many schools. Think about all those guys who are lower level D-1 or D-II talent level. Their best option may be to stay in state, so they're going to go to a WIAC school. And Whitewater probably looks the most appealing of those

[Knightstalker]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

But we're talking about DIII football here, so why aren't there a plethora of powerhouse DIII programs in Texas? Or California? Or Florida? One fact doesn't necessarily correlate to another. The talent in Wisconsin certainly isn't on par with those states, yet UWW is a powerhouse.

Football programs by Division

Texas
D-IA: 10
D-IAA: 7
D-II: 8
NAIA: 2

Total: 27

California
D-IA: 7
D-1AA: 4
D-II: 1
NAIA: 1

Total: 13

Florida
D-IA: 7
D-1AA: 3
D-II: 0
NAIA: 0

Total: 10

Wisconsin
D1-A: 1
D-IAA: 0
D-II: 0
NAIA: 0

Total: 1

Where are you going to play football if you're from Wisconsin and you want to stay in state? Either Madison or a D-III school. Look how many options you have in Texas, Florida and California. Dozens. It may be a smaller pool, but they're not being pilfered by as many schools. Think about all those guys who are lower level D-1 or D-II talent level. Their best option may be to stay in state, so they're going to go to a WIAC school. And Whitewater probably looks the most appealing of those

UWW has been on top of the WIAC for the last 5 years can they sustain their dominance in WI?  To add to bombers post above the WIAC also has roster limits so the talent gets spread out in WI.