FB: Empire 8

[Doid23]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

But we're talking about DIII football here, so why aren't there a plethora of powerhouse DIII programs in Texas? Or California? Or Florida? One fact doesn't necessarily correlate to another. The talent in Wisconsin certainly isn't on par with those states, yet UWW is a powerhouse.

Where are you going to play football if you're from Wisconsin and you want to stay in state? Either Madison or a D-III school. Look how many options you have in Texas, Florida and California. Dozens. It may be a smaller pool, but they're not being pilfered by as many schools. Think about all those guys who are lower level D-1 or D-II talent level. Their best option may be to stay in state, so they're going to go to a WIAC school. And Whitewater probably looks the most appealing of those

For the record, Bombers, I agree regarding Wisconsin. I had to go against Augustana in my day, same deal, Iowa or Auggie. The large number of I-AA schools and DIII schools in the Northeast dilute the pool

In terms of Texas the fact that there are a multitude of DI schools in Texas, doesn't mean that there isn't still a level of football player that can't play DI but can play DIII. But there are other factors in play, such as kids would rather go to UT and play intramurals then play DIII football. But you also have to look at some of the NAIA and DII schools in Oklahoma and the surrounding areas as. DIII just doesn't carry much weight around here. 

But my point is, location doesn't determine how good a DIII football school.

[Frank Rossi]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

But we're talking about DIII football here, so why aren't there a plethora of powerhouse DIII programs in Texas? Or California? Or Florida? One fact doesn't necessarily correlate to another. The talent in Wisconsin certainly isn't on par with those states, yet UWW is a powerhouse.

Where are you going to play football if you're from Wisconsin and you want to stay in state? Either Madison or a D-III school. Look how many options you have in Texas, Florida and California. Dozens. It may be a smaller pool, but they're not being pilfered by as many schools. Think about all those guys who are lower level D-1 or D-II talent level. Their best option may be to stay in state, so they're going to go to a WIAC school. And Whitewater probably looks the most appealing of those

For the record, Bombers, I agree regarding Wisconsin. I had to go against Augustana in my day, same deal, Iowa or Auggie. The large number of I-AA schools and DIII schools in the Northeast dilute the pool

In terms of Texas the fact that there are a multitude of DI schools in Texas, doesn't mean that there isn't still a level of football player that can't play DI but can play DIII. But there are other factors in play, such as kids would rather go to UT and play intramurals then play DIII football. But you also have to look at some of the NAIA and DII schools in Oklahoma and the surrounding areas as. DIII just doesn't carry much weight around here. 

But my point is, location doesn't determine how good a DIII football school.

Having announced a playoff game between Mary Hardin-Baylor and Hardin-Simmons a couple years ago, I have to disagree with the idea that D3 Texas football is pedestrian.  There's a reason UMHB has received national recognition over the last few years.  However, let me say that like any other state, Texas has some better teams and some lesser teams.  I just think their cream is better than the cream of the E8 and NJAC at the present time.  Maybe SJF and DelVal could win 3 or 4 out of 10 matchups against UMHB and H-S, but I don't think it would be more than that right now.

[lewdogg11]

What is MUC and UWW doing differently you ask?  Perhaps they have great coaches who have coached their programs to be very good, resulting in a great recruiting system and peaking an interest in the marginal DI/DIII player.  Furthermore, they have better HS football players in the pool, and there are fewer schools combined giving them an edge.  

The Northeast and Mid-Atlantic will smoke the rest of the country in education, just not in football.

DIII, for the most part, is regional in character, unlike DI where they recruit all over the country.  Therefore you are financially limited to the 'pool' you are given(with few exceptions), and then in the Northeast, it's broken up into more schools per capita than anywhere else in the country by a long shot.  

It's science really.  No sense in debating it.  Until an East team can really do a great job of building a successful program where the better marginal local athletes want to go, they aren't going to get all the athletes.  Fisher and Del Valley(and maybe Cortland) are obviously doing the best job of this right now.  Otherwise, why not go to Bentley?

[Pat Coleman]

In terms of Texas the fact that there are a multitude of DI schools in Texas, doesn't mean that there isn't still a level of football player that can't play DI but can play DIII. But there are other factors in play, such as kids would rather go to UT and play intramurals then play DIII football.

Very true.

798891, I'm addressing you now when I say that a lot of the D-II type kids in Wisconsin attend the Minnesota state schools on scholarship.

And to the general discussion of E8 vs. ASC, I don't think that they would fare well. Washington and Jefferson is a great example -- they have really fared poorly against the speed of the ASC teams and while I believe that the E8 winner is better than W&J, I don't think they are good enough to deal with that.

[Knightstalker]

What is MUC and UWW doing differently you ask?  Perhaps they have great coaches who have coached their programs to be very good, resulting in a great recruiting system and peaking an interest in the marginal DI/DIII player.  Furthermore, they have better HS football players in the pool, and there are fewer schools combined giving them an edge.  

The Northeast and Mid-Atlantic will smoke the rest of the country in education, just not in football.

DIII, for the most part, is regional in character, unlike DI where they recruit all over the country.  Therefore you are financially limited to the 'pool' you are given(with few exceptions), and then in the Northeast, it's broken up into more schools per capita than anywhere else in the country by a long shot.  

It's science really.  No sense in debating it.  Until an East team can really do a great job of building a successful program where the better marginal local athletes want to go, they aren't going to get all the athletes.  Fisher and Del Valley(and maybe Cortland) are obviously doing the best job of this right now.  Otherwise, why not go to Bentley?

Rowan did just that with KC Keeler but when he left they stopped getting the marginal students and transfers.

[Frank Rossi]

What is MUC and UWW doing differently you ask?  Perhaps they have great coaches who have coached their programs to be very good, resulting in a great recruiting system and peaking an interest in the marginal DI/DIII player.  Furthermore, they have better HS football players in the pool, and there are fewer schools combined giving them an edge.  

The Northeast and Mid-Atlantic will smoke the rest of the country in education, just not in football.

DIII, for the most part, is regional in character, unlike DI where they recruit all over the country.  Therefore you are financially limited to the 'pool' you are given(with few exceptions), and then in the Northeast, it's broken up into more schools per capita than anywhere else in the country by a long shot.  

It's science really.  No sense in debating it.  Until an East team can really do a great job of building a successful program where the better marginal local athletes want to go, they aren't going to get all the athletes.  Fisher and Del Valley(and maybe Cortland) are obviously doing the best job of this right now.  Otherwise, why not go to Bentley?

I also think that UWW and MUC have an advantage called "playoff experience."  Keith and Pat discuss this angle from time to time on the ATN Podcast.  Basically, there are three things that begin to be created when a team enjoys a continued success:

1) Ability to Handle Playoffs - Winning playoff games can be a foreign experience to a team that isn't consistently in the playoffs.  Teams like MUC and UWW have players that know what the playoff atmosphere is like every year -- enough so that they aren't punched in the mouth by surprise in the first quarter while being too awestruck in the moment;

2) A Winning Tradition - As I stated in the ERFPPP, players like Chris Coney in this country that might not get looked at by the D-1 schools they want but still want to play football are looking to find programs in which winning is the rule, not the exception.  I think the bounce of Pierre Garcon from Norwich to MUC somewhat evidences that idea, as well.  You can have the most beautiful facilities in the world, but without the wins behind the facilities, they'll deteriorate alongside the team's win/loss record for years to come; and

3) PRACTICE - I think this is the most important one of the three.  Think of it this way:  MUC and UWW seniors have had 15 weeks of extra practice time and games to prepare for over the past three years compared to teams that have not made the playoffs over the past three years.  That's experience that players cannot just trip into accidentally or gain from programs eliminated from/not making it into the playoffs.  Sure, rosters are shrunken during the playoffs, but the extra players still have the opportunity to help the rostered players prepare for those weeks.  Even these teams' "average" players get the chance to become above-average players compared to their counterparts in terms of position and year at other schools based on this factor.

Does this mean it's impossible for a team to catch fire and catch up to these programs?  No.  UWW caught up to MUC after some period of relative mediocrity.  There are teams like Wesley and UMHB that seem to always go 3-4 weeks deep into the playoffs and that have shown the ability to win games perpetually.  I think a team needs to prove a consistent ability to reach the Final 8 or so in the playoffs more than just once in five years to have the above three factors begin to kick in the way that those schools would need to provide a perpetual challenge to MUC and UWW in the recruiting wars and the national landscape.  So, it's tough, but certainly not impossible over the period of a few years for a program that catches and can maintain a certain level of fire in D3.

[Pat Coleman]

And I wrote a story on the playoff/extending the season and practice time in Kickoff this year.

[Frank Rossi]

And I wrote a story on the playoff/extending the season and practice time in Kickoff this year.

Never heard of it ;-)

[union89]

What is MUC and UWW doing differently you ask?  Perhaps they have great coaches who have coached their programs to be very good, resulting in a great recruiting system and peaking an interest in the marginal DI/DIII player.  Furthermore, they have better HS football players in the pool, and there are fewer schools combined giving them an edge.  

The Northeast and Mid-Atlantic will smoke the rest of the country in education, just not in football.

DIII, for the most part, is regional in character, unlike DI where they recruit all over the country.  Therefore you are financially limited to the 'pool' you are given(with few exceptions), and then in the Northeast, it's broken up into more schools per capita than anywhere else in the country by a long shot.  

It's science really.  No sense in debating it.  Until an East team can really do a great job of building a successful program where the better marginal local athletes want to go, they aren't going to get all the athletes.  Fisher and Del Valley(and maybe Cortland) are obviously doing the best job of this right now.  Otherwise, why not go to Bentley?

Because when I hear, 'Bentley', I think of the uptight, gangly, white dude from the "Jefferson's".

[Frank Rossi]

What is MUC and UWW doing differently you ask?  Perhaps they have great coaches who have coached their programs to be very good, resulting in a great recruiting system and peaking an interest in the marginal DI/DIII player.  Furthermore, they have better HS football players in the pool, and there are fewer schools combined giving them an edge.  

The Northeast and Mid-Atlantic will smoke the rest of the country in education, just not in football.

DIII, for the most part, is regional in character, unlike DI where they recruit all over the country.  Therefore you are financially limited to the 'pool' you are given(with few exceptions), and then in the Northeast, it's broken up into more schools per capita than anywhere else in the country by a long shot.  

It's science really.  No sense in debating it.  Until an East team can really do a great job of building a successful program where the better marginal local athletes want to go, they aren't going to get all the athletes.  Fisher and Del Valley(and maybe Cortland) are obviously doing the best job of this right now.  Otherwise, why not go to Bentley?

Because when I hear, 'Bentley', I think of the uptight, gangly, white dude from the "Jefferson's".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Benedict

[lewdogg11]

What is MUC and UWW doing differently you ask?  Perhaps they have great coaches who have coached their programs to be very good, resulting in a great recruiting system and peaking an interest in the marginal DI/DIII player.  Furthermore, they have better HS football players in the pool, and there are fewer schools combined giving them an edge.  

The Northeast and Mid-Atlantic will smoke the rest of the country in education, just not in football.

DIII, for the most part, is regional in character, unlike DI where they recruit all over the country.  Therefore you are financially limited to the 'pool' you are given(with few exceptions), and then in the Northeast, it's broken up into more schools per capita than anywhere else in the country by a long shot.  

It's science really.  No sense in debating it.  Until an East team can really do a great job of building a successful program where the better marginal local athletes want to go, they aren't going to get all the athletes.  Fisher and Del Valley(and maybe Cortland) are obviously doing the best job of this right now.  Otherwise, why not go to Bentley?

Rowan did just that with KC Keeler but when he left they stopped getting the marginal students and transfers.

BINGO!  And if you remember those teams, they were a 'program'.  Watching those Rowan teams was like watching a DI outfit.  They were big, fast, and very athletic.  They were a machine, just like MUC and UWW.  Now, watching D3 football in the East is...well...kind of what people who have no idea of the talent in DIII would expect to see.  Teams are smaller, slower, and not as athletic as what you see on TV.

I'm routing for a big turnaround someday, atleast with a few programs, but honestly, watching the major HS games on ESPN, I sometimes wonder if some of those teams can defeat a good amount of the East DIII teams.

And speaking of HS football, it hurts sometimes to watch the New England HS games.  Where has the talent gone?  It's sad, and I don't know the answer, and of course we all thought everyone was better and bigger and faster when we were there, but the truth is, everyone was!  It's confusing as hell.  NJ and PA excluded, you don't see many MA, NH, ME, or Upstate NY kids on major DI rosters.

[Bombers798891]

In terms of Texas the fact that there are a multitude of DI schools in Texas, doesn't mean that there isn't still a level of football player that can't play DI but can play DIII. But there are other factors in play, such as kids would rather go to UT and play intramurals then play DIII football.

Very true.

798891, I'm addressing you now when I say that a lot of the D-II type kids in Wisconsin attend the Minnesota state schools on scholarship.

And to the general discussion of E8 vs. ASC, I don't think that they would fare well. Washington and Jefferson is a great example -- they have really fared poorly against the speed of the ASC teams and while I believe that the E8 winner is better than W&J, I don't think they are good enough to deal with that.

Fair point. I think there are certainly a multitude of reasons, but that was just one that caught my eye. I work for a magazine and we recently did an interview with their AD, and he said that not having as much competition helped them get some athletes. So that's what piqued my interest in looking that up

[Jonny Utah]

One interesting thing I noticed a few weeks ago was how some school districts across the country are set up.  In Massachusetts,  99% of the towns have their own high school, and if you live in that town, you go to that high school.  The towns have generally had the same boundries since the 17th century.  Then I was watching a Hoover, Alabama game and looked up the town on the internet.  The town of Hoover is in two counties and is basically a gerrymandered/segragated section of Birmingham.  Really kind of a wierd setup.

But LD I don't think Massachusetts high school is that much worse than it was 10 or 20 years ago.  The biggest difference now is that there are more Catholic Schools that are putting a focus on football (Catholic Memorial, St. Johns Prep and Xaverian) and the ISL is really stepping it up in recruiting public talent (BBN, Lawrence Academy, Roxbury Latin).  In fact, back when we played, BBN would probably compete with the Brockton JV team.  Now they would win the state championship easy.

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds. 

[Bombers798891]

What is MUC and UWW doing differently you ask?  Perhaps they have great coaches who have coached their programs to be very good, resulting in a great recruiting system and peaking an interest in the marginal DI/DIII player.  Furthermore, they have better HS football players in the pool, and there are fewer schools combined giving them an edge.  

The Northeast and Mid-Atlantic will smoke the rest of the country in education, just not in football.

DIII, for the most part, is regional in character, unlike DI where they recruit all over the country.  Therefore you are financially limited to the 'pool' you are given(with few exceptions), and then in the Northeast, it's broken up into more schools per capita than anywhere else in the country by a long shot.  

It's science really.  No sense in debating it.  Until an East team can really do a great job of building a successful program where the better marginal local athletes want to go, they aren't going to get all the athletes.  Fisher and Del Valley(and maybe Cortland) are obviously doing the best job of this right now.  Otherwise, why not go to Bentley?

I also think that UWW and MUC have an advantage called "playoff experience."  Keith and Pat discuss this angle from time to time on the ATN Podcast.  Basically, there are three things that begin to be created when a team enjoys a continued success:

1) Ability to Handle Playoffs - Winning playoff games can be a foreign experience to a team that isn't consistently in the playoffs.  Teams like MUC and UWW have players that know what the playoff atmosphere is like every year -- enough so that they aren't punched in the mouth by surprise in the first quarter while being too awestruck in the moment;

2) A Winning Tradition - As I stated in the ERFPPP, players like Chris Coney in this country that might not get looked at by the D-1 schools they want but still want to play football are looking to find programs in which winning is the rule, not the exception.  I think the bounce of Pierre Garcon from Norwich to MUC somewhat evidences that idea, as well.  You can have the most beautiful facilities in the world, but without the wins behind the facilities, they'll deteriorate alongside the team's win/loss record for years to come; and

3) PRACTICE - I think this is the most important one of the three.  Think of it this way:  MUC and UWW seniors have had 15 weeks of extra practice time and games to prepare for over the past three years compared to teams that have not made the playoffs over the past three years.  That's experience that players cannot just trip into accidentally or gain from programs eliminated from/not making it into the playoffs.  Sure, rosters are shrunken during the playoffs, but the extra players still have the opportunity to help the rostered players prepare for those weeks.  Even these teams' "average" players get the chance to become above-average players compared to their counterparts in terms of position and year at other schools based on this factor.

Does this mean it's impossible for a team to catch fire and catch up to these programs?  No.  UWW caught up to MUC after some period of relative mediocrity.  There are teams like Wesley and UMHB that seem to always go 3-4 weeks deep into the playoffs and that have shown the ability to win games perpetually.  I think a team needs to prove a consistent ability to reach the Final 8 or so in the playoffs more than just once in five years to have the above three factors begin to kick in the way that those schools would need to provide a perpetual challenge to MUC and UWW in the recruiting wars and the national landscape.  So, it's tough, but certainly not impossible over the period of a few years for a program that catches and can maintain a certain level of fire in D3.

Those are all good points. Obviously winning creates more winning. I think sometimes striking the gold mine with a coach/staff helps too. I was talking to someone around the program who said that one of things that's hurt Ithaca over the past few years has been the revolving door of so many offensive coordinators, and that's caused Coach Welch to take on some added responsibility in playcalling, which isn't his strongest point.

The phrase I got was "He's a great CEO." Very good at overseeing a program and making sure the parts all work towards the whole, but that having to take on the X's and O's a bit more in recent years have got him a little overwhelmed.

And let's be honest, you can have the best players in the world, but you still have to maximize their talent. You don't get to a winning percentage .920 and .940 unless you're able to get those players performing at the peak of their ability every single week, and that's easier said than done. Sure there's a talent advantage, but have those teams had many of the shoot-yourself-in-the-foot games?

[Bombers798891]

In terms of Texas the fact that there are a multitude of DI schools in Texas, doesn't mean that there isn't still a level of football player that can't play DI but can play DIII. But there are other factors in play, such as kids would rather go to UT and play intramurals then play DIII football.

Very true.

798891, I'm addressing you now when I say that a lot of the D-II type kids in Wisconsin attend the Minnesota state schools on scholarship.

And to the general discussion of E8 vs. ASC, I don't think that they would fare well. Washington and Jefferson is a great example -- they have really fared poorly against the speed of the ASC teams and while I believe that the E8 winner is better than W&J, I don't think they are good enough to deal with that.

I forgot to ask, when you say the D-II kids attend state schools on scholarships do you mean they're not playing football but going to schools on some other kind of scholarship? Or going to Madison anyway? That sort of confused me.