FB: Empire 8

[maxpower]

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds. 

Interesting idea, Jonny, but I am going to take issue with one thing; isn't Brookline one of the wealthier(est?) cities in the Boston area? Perhaps it's more of a class thing; football isn't seen as a rich kid's sport, like hockey or something else. As far as liberalism I'm pretty liberal and love sports, and most of the other liberals I know either like all or no sports (unforunately, mostly the latter. save me!), they don't really discriminate from sport to sport.

I'm not sure what the things you're describing (that I've bolded) have to do with either liberalism or football players. What you're describing sounds an awful lot like my girlfriend's hometown in orange county, CA, one of the wealthiest and most republican counties in california, where NOBODY talks to their neighbors (i know, i've tried!). i think the liberal focus on education over sports is a valid point, but republicans in OC anyway are just as standoffish--and produce a LOT of pro athletes.

In sum, I guess I'd say as far as Mass goes I'd blame it on less focus on sports at that age, and let's not forget the weather.

[Jonny Utah]

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds. 

Interesting idea, Jonny, but I am going to take issue with one thing; isn't Brookline one of the wealthier(est?) cities in the Boston area? Perhaps it's more of a class thing; football isn't seen as a rich kid's sport, like hockey or something else. As far as liberalism I'm pretty liberal and love sports, and most of the other liberals I know either like all or no sports (unforunately, mostly the latter. save me!), they don't really discriminate from sport to sport.

I'm not sure what the things you're describing (that I've bolded) have to do with either liberalism or football players. What you're describing sounds an awful lot like my girlfriend's hometown in orange county, CA, one of the wealthiest and most republican counties in california, where NOBODY talks to their neighbors (i know, i've tried!). i think the liberal focus on education over sports is a valid point, but republicans in OC anyway are just as standoffish--and produce a LOT of pro athletes.

In sum, I guess I'd say as far as Mass goes I'd blame it on less focus on sports at that age, and let's not forget the weather.

Well maybe you and I have figured this whole thing out Maxpower!  Republican areas of the country produce better football players?

[maxpower]

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds. 

Interesting idea, Jonny, but I am going to take issue with one thing; isn't Brookline one of the wealthier(est?) cities in the Boston area? Perhaps it's more of a class thing; football isn't seen as a rich kid's sport, like hockey or something else. As far as liberalism I'm pretty liberal and love sports, and most of the other liberals I know either like all or no sports (unforunately, mostly the latter. save me!), they don't really discriminate from sport to sport.

I'm not sure what the things you're describing (that I've bolded) have to do with either liberalism or football players. What you're describing sounds an awful lot like my girlfriend's hometown in orange county, CA, one of the wealthiest and most republican counties in california, where NOBODY talks to their neighbors (i know, i've tried!). i think the liberal focus on education over sports is a valid point, but republicans in OC anyway are just as standoffish--and produce a LOT of pro athletes.

In sum, I guess I'd say as far as Mass goes I'd blame it on less focus on sports at that age, and let's not forget the weather.

Well maybe you and I have figured this whole thing out Maxpower!  Republican areas of the country produce better football players?

Haha, probably not that simple, but I think Hank Hill would agree with you.

I still think it's related to class... wealthy republicans are very different from poorer republicans, and football is one of the big three sports (+baseball, basketball) that are the "good old american tough guy" ones that people living in rural areas are more likely to enjoy. That's why you don't see a lot of hockey players coming out of Texas. That and the weather....

[dlippiel]

A few thoughts on today's discussion:

-dlip enjoyed the insight, opinions, and perceptions shared by all involved. He feels like he has a bit more perspective on the topic now than before this discussion began.

-he does feel PC tends to be quick to drop the hammer on any mention of East Region strength in comparison to rest of the nation but does feel that calling PC "anti-east" was a tad too much, dlip apologizes.

-can't use MUC as a barometer for anyone aside from UWW and a few select others. The comparisons really don't work in favor of or against relative strength. These teams from different regions need to play each other more often (if fiscal bugets allow) for that would answer all our questions and leave the answer and true reality on one place, the field.

-we all just really love our teams, player dedication, and program histories as well as D3 football itself. We all want our program to be that program that rises above. Maybe even more so in the East because much of our passion were built on teams that were competitive on a national level and now those teams really just are not.

-funny how dlip gives PC a shot and then really finishes mirroring some of the words he has used many times over. "Get better" One wants respect as a program go out and get it by beating the best, (dlip will add some of his own) play the best (if possible), win when you should (always), build your program, and shoot to win it all every year. Balance that with academics and personal responsibility and you have yourself a great program and most importantly D3 football. Now for our regularly scheduled program...

[lewdogg11]

One interesting thing I noticed a few weeks ago was how some school districts across the country are set up.  In Massachusetts,  99% of the towns have their own high school, and if you live in that town, you go to that high school.  The towns have generally had the same boundries since the 17th century.  Then I was watching a Hoover, Alabama game and looked up the town on the internet.  The town of Hoover is in two counties and is basically a gerrymandered/segragated section of Birmingham.  Really kind of a wierd setup.

But LD I don't think Massachusetts high school is that much worse than it was 10 or 20 years ago.  The biggest difference now is that there are more Catholic Schools that are putting a focus on football (Catholic Memorial, St. Johns Prep and Xaverian) and the ISL is really stepping it up in recruiting public talent (BBN, Lawrence Academy, Roxbury Latin).  In fact, back when we played, BBN would probably compete with the Brockton JV team.  Now they would win the state championship easy.

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds.  

Most MA kids are pussies nowadays.  I think that is half the problem.  What happened to the tough kids that enjoyed playing football and smacking each other around?  Now they play video games, get fat, and listen to their ipods and make sure to NEVER make eye contact with anyone.  

And on goes the pussification of America...

We could always blame it on Janet Jackson.

[Jonny Utah]

One interesting thing I noticed a few weeks ago was how some school districts across the country are set up.  In Massachusetts,  99% of the towns have their own high school, and if you live in that town, you go to that high school.  The towns have generally had the same boundries since the 17th century.  Then I was watching a Hoover, Alabama game and looked up the town on the internet.  The town of Hoover is in two counties and is basically a gerrymandered/segragated section of Birmingham.  Really kind of a wierd setup.

But LD I don't think Massachusetts high school is that much worse than it was 10 or 20 years ago.  The biggest difference now is that there are more Catholic Schools that are putting a focus on football (Catholic Memorial, St. Johns Prep and Xaverian) and the ISL is really stepping it up in recruiting public talent (BBN, Lawrence Academy, Roxbury Latin).  In fact, back when we played, BBN would probably compete with the Brockton JV team.  Now they would win the state championship easy.

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds.  

Most MA kids are pussies nowadays.  I think that is half the problem.  What happened to the tough kids that enjoyed playing football and smacking each other around?  Now they play video games, get fat, and listen to their ipods and make sure to NEVER make eye contact with anyone.  

And on goes the pussification of America...

We could always blame it on Janet Jackson.

LD read this......

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2010/09/28/natick_panel_hits_pause_on_high_school_ipod_ban/

This is Natick mind you, one of the best football towns in the history of Massachusetts.

[Jonny Utah]

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds.  

Interesting idea, Jonny, but I am going to take issue with one thing; isn't Brookline one of the wealthier(est?) cities in the Boston area? Perhaps it's more of a class thing; football isn't seen as a rich kid's sport, like hockey or something else. As far as liberalism I'm pretty liberal and love sports, and most of the other liberals I know either like all or no sports (unforunately, mostly the latter. save me!), they don't really discriminate from sport to sport.

I'm not sure what the things you're describing (that I've bolded) have to do with either liberalism or football players. What you're describing sounds an awful lot like my girlfriend's hometown in orange county, CA, one of the wealthiest and most republican counties in california, where NOBODY talks to their neighbors (i know, i've tried!). i think the liberal focus on education over sports is a valid point, but republicans in OC anyway are just as standoffish--and produce a LOT of pro athletes.

In sum, I guess I'd say as far as Mass goes I'd blame it on less focus on sports at that age, and let's not forget the weather.

Well maybe you and I have figured this whole thing out Maxpower!  Republican areas of the country produce better football players?

Haha, probably not that simple, but I think Hank Hill would agree with you.

I still think it's related to class... wealthy republicans are very different from poorer republicans, and football is one of the big three sports (+baseball, basketball) that are the "good old american tough guy" ones that people living in rural areas are more likely to enjoy. That's why you don't see a lot of hockey players coming out of Texas. That and the weather....

Actually maxpower, you should look at some of the rosters of some Hockey East programs.  20 years ago 90% of these rosters were either from Boston or Canada.  Now 10% of these kids are from Boston and many are from states like Florida, Texas or California.  Also more of a class issue as ice time and Jr. hockey have become money makers.

(A quick glance at Boston University's roster shows 6 Canadians, 5 Mass residents, 3 from California and 2 from Texas.)

[maxpower]

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds. 

Interesting idea, Jonny, but I am going to take issue with one thing; isn't Brookline one of the wealthier(est?) cities in the Boston area? Perhaps it's more of a class thing; football isn't seen as a rich kid's sport, like hockey or something else. As far as liberalism I'm pretty liberal and love sports, and most of the other liberals I know either like all or no sports (unforunately, mostly the latter. save me!), they don't really discriminate from sport to sport.

I'm not sure what the things you're describing (that I've bolded) have to do with either liberalism or football players. What you're describing sounds an awful lot like my girlfriend's hometown in orange county, CA, one of the wealthiest and most republican counties in california, where NOBODY talks to their neighbors (i know, i've tried!). i think the liberal focus on education over sports is a valid point, but republicans in OC anyway are just as standoffish--and produce a LOT of pro athletes.

In sum, I guess I'd say as far as Mass goes I'd blame it on less focus on sports at that age, and let's not forget the weather.

Well maybe you and I have figured this whole thing out Maxpower!  Republican areas of the country produce better football players?

Haha, probably not that simple, but I think Hank Hill would agree with you.

I still think it's related to class... wealthy republicans are very different from poorer republicans, and football is one of the big three sports (+baseball, basketball) that are the "good old american tough guy" ones that people living in rural areas are more likely to enjoy. That's why you don't see a lot of hockey players coming out of Texas. That and the weather....

Actually maxpower, you should look at some of the rosters of some Hockey East programs.  20 years ago 90% of these rosters were either from Boston or Canada.  Now 10% of these kids are from Boston and many are from states like Florida, Texas or California.  Also more of a class issue as ice time and Jr. hockey have become money makers.

Not to mention all the damn equipment on each player.

[lewdogg11]

One interesting thing I noticed a few weeks ago was how some school districts across the country are set up.  In Massachusetts,  99% of the towns have their own high school, and if you live in that town, you go to that high school.  The towns have generally had the same boundries since the 17th century.  Then I was watching a Hoover, Alabama game and looked up the town on the internet.  The town of Hoover is in two counties and is basically a gerrymandered/segragated section of Birmingham.  Really kind of a wierd setup.

But LD I don't think Massachusetts high school is that much worse than it was 10 or 20 years ago.  The biggest difference now is that there are more Catholic Schools that are putting a focus on football (Catholic Memorial, St. Johns Prep and Xaverian) and the ISL is really stepping it up in recruiting public talent (BBN, Lawrence Academy, Roxbury Latin).  In fact, back when we played, BBN would probably compete with the Brockton JV team.  Now they would win the state championship easy.

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds.  

Most MA kids are pussies nowadays.  I think that is half the problem.  What happened to the tough kids that enjoyed playing football and smacking each other around?  Now they play video games, get fat, and listen to their ipods and make sure to NEVER make eye contact with anyone.  

And on goes the pussification of America...

We could always blame it on Janet Jackson.

LD read this......

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2010/09/28/natick_panel_hits_pause_on_high_school_ipod_ban/

This is Natick mind you, one of the best football towns in the history of Massachusetts.

This line kills me:

"Let's get together with the students and try to come back in two or three weeks with something that meets our goals,'' Sanchioni said.

Since when do school officials care what the kids have to say?  Some little emo loser punk thinks his ipod makes him study better...SO F'ing what?  ADD didn't even exist when we were kids.  It's all a fraud and an excuse for kids to fail at life and an excuse for mommy and daddy to tell little Johnny Podunk 'Atleast you tried your best!  It's not your fault!'

[pumkinattack]

With respect to Texas and FL football, you guys are assuming all talented HS kids are playing college football as if the binary option is D1/D3, however, having spent a ton of time this winter in OH (Miamisburg, outside Dayton), it's clear that as bad as you think Binghamton (my hometown), Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany is, there is a lot, lot worse out there.  A lot of these kids are happy to have truck driving jobs out of hs. 

Haven't posted in weeks, but FU SJF.  I hope we get a return trip in playoffs.  I hear you're good, and caught part of the game at the airport.  I'd be more upset, but I was coming back from a vacation out of the country.

Go East, F' the rest of the country (even if they're better).!
I

[union89]

One interesting thing I noticed a few weeks ago was how some school districts across the country are set up.  In Massachusetts,  99% of the towns have their own high school, and if you live in that town, you go to that high school.  The towns have generally had the same boundries since the 17th century.  Then I was watching a Hoover, Alabama game and looked up the town on the internet.  The town of Hoover is in two counties and is basically a gerrymandered/segragated section of Birmingham.  Really kind of a wierd setup.

But LD I don't think Massachusetts high school is that much worse than it was 10 or 20 years ago.  The biggest difference now is that there are more Catholic Schools that are putting a focus on football (Catholic Memorial, St. Johns Prep and Xaverian) and the ISL is really stepping it up in recruiting public talent (BBN, Lawrence Academy, Roxbury Latin).  In fact, back when we played, BBN would probably compete with the Brockton JV team.  Now they would win the state championship easy.

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds. 

I know......Brookline sucks.....

[union89]

One interesting thing I noticed a few weeks ago was how some school districts across the country are set up.  In Massachusetts,  99% of the towns have their own high school, and if you live in that town, you go to that high school.  The towns have generally had the same boundries since the 17th century.  Then I was watching a Hoover, Alabama game and looked up the town on the internet.  The town of Hoover is in two counties and is basically a gerrymandered/segragated section of Birmingham.  Really kind of a wierd setup.

But LD I don't think Massachusetts high school is that much worse than it was 10 or 20 years ago.  The biggest difference now is that there are more Catholic Schools that are putting a focus on football (Catholic Memorial, St. Johns Prep and Xaverian) and the ISL is really stepping it up in recruiting public talent (BBN, Lawrence Academy, Roxbury Latin).  In fact, back when we played, BBN would probably compete with the Brockton JV team.  Now they would win the state championship easy.

Plus people in the northeast just aren't interested in High School football.  Its a kids game to many people.  I also attritute some of that to the liberal atmosphere of these Massachusetts towns.  My hometown (Brookline) a town of 60,000 people you could probably drive around on a nice summer day and not one family would be outside grilling.  You don't know your neighbors, most people don't take pride in their communities, kids are at PSAT prep classes instead of afterschool sports, and people in general are nerds.  

Most MA kids are pussies nowadays.  I think that is half the problem.  What happened to the tough kids that enjoyed playing football and smacking each other around?  Now they play video games, get fat, and listen to their ipods and make sure to NEVER make eye contact with anyone.  

And on goes the pussification of America...

We could always blame it on Janet Jackson.

I agree, but have you been drinkin'? 

ipods and the like are a huge reason for the problem.  Utah may not see people grilling, I NEVER see kids playing a pick-up (unsupervised) game of football or baseball here in Boston......sad.

[Pat Coleman]

In terms of Texas the fact that there are a multitude of DI schools in Texas, doesn't mean that there isn't still a level of football player that can't play DI but can play DIII. But there are other factors in play, such as kids would rather go to UT and play intramurals then play DIII football.

Very true.

798891, I'm addressing you now when I say that a lot of the D-II type kids in Wisconsin attend the Minnesota state schools on scholarship.

And to the general discussion of E8 vs. ASC, I don't think that they would fare well. Washington and Jefferson is a great example -- they have really fared poorly against the speed of the ASC teams and while I believe that the E8 winner is better than W&J, I don't think they are good enough to deal with that.

I forgot to ask, when you say the D-II kids attend state schools on scholarships do you mean they're not playing football but going to schools on some other kind of scholarship? Or going to Madison anyway? That sort of confused me.

I mean that a number of Wisconsin kids are playing Division II football at places like Winona State and St. Cloud State, etc., in Minnesota. Plus, South Dakota is pulling some I-AA kids out since that coach is a former WIAC coach.

[AUPepBand]

Pep is amazed he hasn't gotten a word in edge wise.....+K to all for the interesting reading material!!

[sjfcards]

Go to a HS game in Upstate NY, or MA, or in the Northeast...Then check one out in OH, NC, FL, CA, TX...  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, the talent as a whole is way different.  For East Region d3 teams, most recruits come from the Northeast, so they just don't have the pool of talent that other states and regions have.  And the best players go D1 or somewhere bigger.  Maybe it's the snow, maybe it's the water, maybe it's the youth coaching being sucky, I just don't know...But those are the facts.  

But we're talking about DIII football here, so why aren't there a plethora of powerhouse DIII programs in Texas? Or California? Or Florida? One fact doesn't necessarily correlate to another. The talent in Wisconsin certainly isn't on par with those states, yet UWW is a powerhouse.

Football programs by Division

Texas
D-IA: 10
D-IAA: 7
D-II: 8
NAIA: 2

Total: 27

California
D-IA: 7
D-1AA: 4
D-II: 1
NAIA: 1

Total: 13

Florida
D-IA: 7
D-1AA: 3
D-II: 0
NAIA: 0

Total: 10

Wisconsin
D1-A: 1
D-IAA: 0
D-II: 0
NAIA: 0

Total: 1

Where are you going to play football if you're from Wisconsin and you want to stay in state? Either Madison or a D-III school. Look how many options you have in Texas, Florida and California. Dozens. It may be a smaller pool, but they're not being pilfered by as many schools. Think about all those guys who are lower level D-1 or D-II talent level. Their best option may be to stay in state, so they're going to go to a WIAC school. And Whitewater probably looks the most appealing of those

One other thought I have on the discrepency in the number of schools is that some kids may grow up in Wisconsin dreaming of playing for UWW, or some other UW school, since there are so few. In the northeast (and several other areas to be fair) there are more options. In upstate you can follow Syracuse, Rutgers, Buffalo, and even Albany in state. But within a reasonable distance there is Ohio State, Pitt, Penn State, Boston College, Not to mention all the DI AA teams, the DII teams, etc. I think the number of options plays a big role in the pool of players a DIII program can draw from.

Another major factor, IMHO, is the overall quality of schools in the Northeast. Someone stated earlier something to the effect of: "the northeast can dominate in academics, the rest of the country can dominate in football". I think there is merit in this statement. If you are a Quality Texas or Florida high school football player, maybe a solid DIII player but a fringe DII or or IAA player, you can go to one of the few quality DIII institutions to play football, or you can go to UT or U of F. In the east you can go to one of several high quality institutions to play football. The lack of options creates a concentration of talent at schools in certain regions. And I don't mean to demine any school (lets face it Fisher is not exactly Harvard or Penn), but MIT, Amherst, Williams, Hamilton, U of R, Tufts,  etc. are some of the best colleges in the world, let alone DIII football institutions.