FB: Empire 8

[AUKaz00]

I'm rooting for IC- Simply because I would like to see a year in which IC is strong, Fisher is strong, and AU is strong.  I want to see AU come out on top of the best in the E8.  I understand UC is gaining momentum but like said before, AU has never beat (minus the forfeit season) AU and SJF in the same year.  IC may not be as strong as in the past but they are still IC...

Yeah, you mentioned that whole "When Alfred beats IC, it's usually said that IC is down," but unfortunately although it may be a bit of a unfair hit to the AU team, it tends to be true. It also tends to be true for most teams that aren't Fisher or Cortland though. And really, doesn't that make sense? All teams are more likely to lose in down years. That's what makes them down years.

When does Alfred beat Ithaca?!?

[saxontad]

I'm rooting for IC- Simply because I would like to see a year in which IC is strong, Fisher is strong, and AU is strong.  I want to see AU come out on top of the best in the E8.  I understand UC is gaining momentum but like said before, AU has never beat (minus the forfeit season) AU and SJF in the same year.  IC may not be as strong as in the past but they are still IC...

Yeah, you mentioned that whole "When Alfred beats IC, it's usually said that IC is down," but unfortunately although it may be a bit of a unfair hit to the AU team, it tends to be true. It also tends to be true for most teams that aren't Fisher or Cortland though. And really, doesn't that make sense? All teams are more likely to lose in down years. That's what makes them down years.

When does Alfred beat Ithaca?!?

About 1.5 times a decade!!

[AlfredSaxon8]

I'm rooting for IC- Simply because I would like to see a year in which IC is strong, Fisher is strong, and AU is strong.  I want to see AU come out on top of the best in the E8.  I understand UC is gaining momentum but like said before, AU has never beat (minus the forfeit season) AU and SJF in the same year.  IC may not be as strong as in the past but they are still IC...

Yeah, you mentioned that whole "When Alfred beats IC, it's usually said that IC is down," but unfortunately although it may be a bit of a unfair hit to the AU team, it tends to be true. It also tends to be true for most teams that aren't Fisher or Cortland though. And really, doesn't that make sense? All teams are more likely to lose in down years. That's what makes them down years.

Yes but a "down year" for IC is 2-3 losses...  Down years for most schools are .500 or one game above.  For IC, a "down year" is losing to Fisher and AU and going to an ECAC game...

If IC lost to UC then it would it may call into question the dwindling strength of the E8.  Obvsiouly the other end of that would be the rising power of UC, but from an oustiders p.o.v, it would be a bad loss, not a good win.  

[AUPepBand]

I'm rooting for IC- Simply because I would like to see a year in which IC is strong, Fisher is strong, and AU is strong.  I want to see AU come out on top of the best in the E8.  I understand UC is gaining momentum but like said before, AU has never beat (minus the forfeit season) AU and SJF in the same year.  IC may not be as strong as in the past but they are still IC...

Yeah, you mentioned that whole "When Alfred beats IC, it's usually said that IC is down," but unfortunately although it may be a bit of a unfair hit to the AU team, it tends to be true. It also tends to be true for most teams that aren't Fisher or Cortland though. And really, doesn't that make sense? All teams are more likely to lose in down years. That's what makes them down years.

When does Alfred beat Ithaca?!?

When AU scores more points than the Bombers. It happened--just barely--in 2006 (28-17), 1995 (13-12), 1993 (30-20), 1989 (17-10), 1982 (20-7), 1981 (17-13), 1961 (14-7), and, quite comfortably before Butterfield (who arrived in 1967 to change IC's fortunes) in 1956 (46-12), 1955 (26-0), 1954 (41-0), 1953 (41-6), 1951 (41-0) and 1939 (18-6).

One of Pep's favorite games was Alex's last year, in 1976, when the Bombers rallied on South Hill Field from way behind to force a 3-3 tie, a week before AU handed St. Lawrence its lone regular season loss, a 3-2 barn-burner in Canton.

[maxpower]

I'm rooting for IC- Simply because I would like to see a year in which IC is strong, Fisher is strong, and AU is strong.  I want to see AU come out on top of the best in the E8.  I understand UC is gaining momentum but like said before, AU has never beat (minus the forfeit season) AU and SJF in the same year.  IC may not be as strong as in the past but they are still IC...

Yeah, you mentioned that whole "When Alfred beats IC, it's usually said that IC is down," but unfortunately although it may be a bit of a unfair hit to the AU team, it tends to be true. It also tends to be true for most teams that aren't Fisher or Cortland though. And really, doesn't that make sense? All teams are more likely to lose in down years. That's what makes them down years.

When does Alfred beat Ithaca?!?

When AU scores more points than the Bombers. It happened--just barely--in 2006 (28-17), 1995 (13-12), 1993 (30-20), 1989 (17-10), 1982 (20-7), 1981 (17-13), 1961 (14-7), and, quite comfortably before Butterfield (who arrived in 1967 to change IC's fortunes) in 1956 (46-12), 1955 (26-0), 1954 (41-0), 1953 (41-6), 1951 (41-0) and 1939 (18-6).

One of Pep's favorite games was Alex's last year, in 1976, when the Bombers rallied on South Hill Field from way behind to force a 3-3 tie, a week before AU handed St. Lawrence its lone regular season loss, a 3-2 barn-burner in Canton.

Jeez.... is that when they were still playing football with bats and bases?

[Bombers798891]

I'm rooting for IC- Simply because I would like to see a year in which IC is strong, Fisher is strong, and AU is strong.  I want to see AU come out on top of the best in the E8.  I understand UC is gaining momentum but like said before, AU has never beat (minus the forfeit season) AU and SJF in the same year.  IC may not be as strong as in the past but they are still IC...

Yeah, you mentioned that whole "When Alfred beats IC, it's usually said that IC is down," but unfortunately although it may be a bit of a unfair hit to the AU team, it tends to be true. It also tends to be true for most teams that aren't Fisher or Cortland though. And really, doesn't that make sense? All teams are more likely to lose in down years. That's what makes them down years.

Yes but a "down year" for IC is 2-3 losses...  Down years for most schools are .500 or one game above.  For IC, a "down year" is losing to Fisher and AU and going to an ECAC game...

If IC lost to UC then it would it may call into question the dwindling strength of the E8.  Obvsiouly the other end of that would be the rising power of UC, but from an oustiders p.o.v, it would be a bad loss, not a good win.  

Yeah, it's like the big 10...the fact that Michigan State and Northwestern are better than Michigan and Penn State is seen as mediocrity and not depth...

Yes, a down Ithaca is still a good team overall, but just going off the top of my head, the years Pep mentioned were all down years by IC standards

2006- 7-3
1995- 5-4 (Although there were a lot of D-II schools on that schedule)
1993- 6-4--I think...

The 2006 team was the only one I'd consider to be that good, but Dan Juvan never beat a team with a winning record on the road in his college career. (The 2008 team trailed Alfred 14-13 when he left with an injury, effectively ending his Bomber career, so I give the win to Grastorf)

It was a double edged sword for you last season. A loss to Ithaca looks bad, but beating them drops them to 5-4, which leads to the whole "down year" argument. But this is why I said Alfred's lack of conference titles/NCAA games is why they struggle to gain national respect. That's how Fisher did it. That's how IC did it (sans the conference titles obviously). 8-2/7-3 is nice, as are school records and the occasional AA. That being said, they've got to do more.

IC's in the same boat. We used to be a national power. Then we went 7 years between playoff berths, and now we're in a seven-year playoff win drought. No-one considers us to be a national player anymore (except, I'm told, IC coaches, who really should work on that). Yes, we're considered a good team, and a traditional power and maybe, until five years ago or so an East Power. But we're getting AA's, school records and 7-8 win seasons just like you and, aside from the AFCA/Lindy's poll (which few of us take seriously) are not considered a national power. Any national respect is really based on a 20-year or so stretch from 1973-1994 or so.

[AlfredSaxon8]

I'm rooting for IC- Simply because I would like to see a year in which IC is strong, Fisher is strong, and AU is strong.  I want to see AU come out on top of the best in the E8.  I understand UC is gaining momentum but like said before, AU has never beat (minus the forfeit season) AU and SJF in the same year.  IC may not be as strong as in the past but they are still IC...

Yeah, you mentioned that whole "When Alfred beats IC, it's usually said that IC is down," but unfortunately although it may be a bit of a unfair hit to the AU team, it tends to be true. It also tends to be true for most teams that aren't Fisher or Cortland though. And really, doesn't that make sense? All teams are more likely to lose in down years. That's what makes them down years.

Yes but a "down year" for IC is 2-3 losses...  Down years for most schools are .500 or one game above.  For IC, a "down year" is losing to Fisher and AU and going to an ECAC game...

If IC lost to UC then it would it may call into question the dwindling strength of the E8.  Obvsiouly the other end of that would be the rising power of UC, but from an oustiders p.o.v, it would be a bad loss, not a good win.  

Yeah, it's like the big 10...the fact that Michigan State and Northwestern are better than Michigan and Penn State is seen as mediocrity and not depth...

Yes, a down Ithaca is still a good team overall, but just going off the top of my head, the years Pep mentioned were all down years by IC standards

2006- 7-3
1995- 5-4 (Although there were a lot of D-II schools on that schedule)
1993- 6-4--I think...

The 2006 team was the only one I'd consider to be that good, but Dan Juvan never beat a team with a winning record on the road in his college career. (The 2008 team trailed Alfred 14-13 when he left with an injury, effectively ending his Bomber career, so I give the win to Grastorf)

It was a double edged sword for you last season. A loss to Ithaca looks bad, but beating them drops them to 5-4, which leads to the whole "down year" argument. But this is why I said Alfred's lack of conference titles/NCAA games is why they struggle to gain national respect. That's how Fisher did it. That's how IC did it (sans the conference titles obviously). 8-2/7-3 is nice, as are school records and the occasional AA. That being said, they've got to do more.

IC's in the same boat. We used to be a national power. Then we went 7 years between playoff berths, and now we're in a seven-year playoff win drought. No-one considers us to be a national player anymore (except, I'm told, IC coaches, who really should work on that). Yes, we're considered a good team, and a traditional power and maybe, until five years ago or so an East Power. But we're getting AA's, school records and 7-8 win seasons just like you and, aside from the AFCA/Lindy's poll (which few of us take seriously) are not considered a national power. Any national respect is really based on a 20-year or so stretch from 1973-1994 or so.

I agree with a large part of that...

When we played IC in 06, I think that might have been the worst I'd seen Juvan play.  In 07, at home, he was spot on, unstoppable.  But in 06, he was over throwing receives by 15 yards.  Kid had a cannon but seemed inconsistent...? Thoughts?

Why isn't IC getting the talent it used to? I mean, personally, had I ever toured there, I would have been amazed and thats before the new athletic facitilties. 

I think a lot of it has to do with the guys up front.  I remember just seeing them dominate the LOS. 

Plus the switch to the odd stack wasn't the best decision defensively.  Lots of gaps, open holes, if you give any good offense time, they will tear it apart. 

[maxpower]

When we played IC in 06, I think that might have been the worst I'd seen Juvan play.  In 07, at home, he was spot on, unstoppable.  But in 06, he was over throwing receives by 15 yards.  Kid had a cannon but seemed inconsistent...? Thoughts?

That was his first year as a starter, and I remember a lot of inconsistency... Juvan heard footsteps a lot then...

[theoriginalupstate]

U of RS stud RB was lost for the season with a dislocated elbow that occurred during the Courage Bowl...

Losing him was a huge blow, he was basically their whole team...

Onyiriuka had 92 yards on 30 carries in AU's 51-14 win last year.
Onyiriuka had 39 yards on 13 carries in AU's 43-14 win in 2008 at Fauver.
He hadn't done a lot of damage against the Saxons.

Pep was sorry Borum wasn't suited up at Merrill Field. Pep wanted to see him. Nevertheless, Pep doesn't think Borum would have had any better success than Kramer. The guy's the real deal. Pep was tempted to start a chant, "Colgate Reject!" but thought better of it. Top notch player.

Not saying that he would have made a difference vs AU but Onyiriuka was all that UofR had, so that's why they only have 1 win...

Also I'm not in any way saying that the outcome would have been different but the loss of Borum kind of limited the passing game, by having to put Kramer in the backfield.  That deep pass that was dropped early by SJF opposite the scoreboard wouldn't have been dropped by Kramer (SJF scored later on that drive).  Instead of putting Kramer in the backfield when spelling Borum they put Miller in.  That's a big step down going from Kramer to Miller instead of Borum to Kramer...

[Bombers798891]

I agree with a large part of that...

When we played IC in 06, I think that might have been the worst I'd seen Juvan play.  In 07, at home, he was spot on, unstoppable.  But in 06, he was over throwing receives by 15 yards.  Kid had a cannon but seemed inconsistent...? Thoughts?

Why isn't IC getting the talent it used to? I mean, personally, had I ever toured there, I would have been amazed and thats before the new athletic facitilties. 

I think a lot of it has to do with the guys up front.  I remember just seeing them dominate the LOS. 

Plus the switch to the odd stack wasn't the best decision defensively.  Lots of gaps, open holes, if you give any good offense time, they will tear it apart. 

1. Juvan, as a whole, did not click with the offense until midway through 2007, when they just started rolling people. That 2006 squad was also underwhelming with regards to playmakers on the outside. And the Bombers don't play well on turf. Never have. Ask Springfield. As for the defensive alignment in 2006, if you saw the disaster that was the 2005 defense, you'd beg for change too. The kid had an arm, and I heard he outplayed Boltus at a camp set up for them--he was on the Bills as a non-roster invite in the offseason--but seemed to lack that panache to rise up in those tough moments, especially on the road.

2. The line was the best in the East in 2008. I've been told the rotating offensive coordinators has hurt the team a lot in the last few years. As for recruiting, the coaches tend to blame administrative support/money, and lord knows IC aint cheap. But when someone explains how Brockport in 2004, Lycoming in 2005 and Curry in 2008 were influenced by administrators, I'll go with my theory that their inability to win playoff games kills recruiting, since success tends to begat more success. I'm not entirely sure how this new facility helps them either, since, to my knowledge, it's lacking in football-specific stuff, but an ex-athlete would know better if general athletic success/top-notch facilities elsewhere sends a good message to recruits.

I have no idea why Alfred still struggles with them. Matchups/mental game maybe. It's sort of astounding, but I do think they pull it out this season.

Alfred 31-13

[theoriginalupstate]

What also kills recruiting for IC is their attitude, it's almost as they don't care if you come or not they'll do fine with out you type of vibe...

That's all well and good when you're a regional/national power and talent is knocking down your door to get in but when you have teams catching up and passing you in your own conference you need to switch it up...

[Bombers798891]

What also kills recruiting for IC is their attitude, it's almost as they don't care if you come or not they'll do fine with out you type of vibe...

That's all well and good when you're a regional/national power and talent is knocking down your door to get in but when you have teams catching up and passing you in your own conference you need to switch it up...

Did that happen to you? Or have you heard it from Fisher guys? I hadn't heard that, but it fits

[theoriginalupstate]

What also kills recruiting for IC is their attitude, it's almost as they don't care if you come or not they'll do fine with out you type of vibe...

That's all well and good when you're a regional/national power and talent is knocking down your door to get in but when you have teams catching up and passing you in your own conference you need to switch it up...

Did that happen to you? Or have you heard it from Fisher guys? I hadn't heard that, but it fits

Out of HS it did...

Then coming out of JUCO I sought out the place that seemed like they wanted me to be apart of the team. That was Fisher, where I came in my Jr year and started right away in 2002...

I've heard other stories like that from IC, most notably with Robinson who basically got the cold shoulder from IC...

[maxpower]

What also kills recruiting for IC is their attitude, it's almost as they don't care if you come or not they'll do fine with out you type of vibe...

That's all well and good when you're a regional/national power and talent is knocking down your door to get in but when you have teams catching up and passing you in your own conference you need to switch it up...

Did that happen to you? Or have you heard it from Fisher guys? I hadn't heard that, but it fits

Out of HS it did...

Then coming out of JUCO I sought out the place that seemed like they wanted me to be apart of the team. That was Fisher, where I came in my Jr year and started right away in 2002...

I've heard other stories like that from IC, most notably with Robinson who basically got the cold shoulder from IC...

Oh yeah... sjfcards said something about those being the "lesser o-line days," right? 

But as Bomber said, that attitude wouldn't surprise me. Would like to hear some other opinions though..... where's bomber3 when you need him...

[SJFF82]

What also kills recruiting for IC is their attitude, it's almost as they don't care if you come or not they'll do fine with out you type of vibe...

That's all well and good when you're a regional/national power and talent is knocking down your door to get in but when you have teams catching up and passing you in your own conference you need to switch it up...

Did that happen to you? Or have you heard it from Fisher guys? I hadn't heard that, but it fits

Out of HS it did...

Then coming out of JUCO I sought out the place that seemed like they wanted me to be apart of the team. That was Fisher, where I came in my Jr year and started right away in 2002...

I've heard other stories like that from IC, most notably with Robinson who basically got the cold shoulder from IC...

Oh yeah... sjfcards said something about those being the "lesser o-line days," right? 

But as Bomber said, that attitude wouldn't surprise me. Would like to hear some other opinions though..... where's bomber3 when you need him...

he's lobbying the committee for a 2-loss IC squad to get a bid...and they havent even lost to UC and AU yet...