FB: Empire 8

[lewdogg11]

I agree with one of the IC posters that a lot of this speculation and conjecture has more to do with the historical relationship between Fisher and Rochester, and I don't mean on the football field, but rather institutionally. 

I think what people are ignoring is that UofR is the most national of all the schools in NY State, perhaps in the entire east region.  I'm sure someone will tout their school's communications program or engineering or whatever, but it's really true that Rochester is more concerned with outside of Rochester, perhaps outside of NY State much more than they are with Fisher, Brockport, etc. 

How about this, UofR doesn't see a reason to keep the game in their view as it relates to the schedule going forward, their relationship with the city or Fisher, institutional considerations, etc.  That doesn't mean they're lowlife's or suggest anything about their character.  The results are judged on whether the decision they make results in the outcomes they desired and/or hypothesized to occur.

And how is a rumor that the UofR AD ran over to Mervis to say the game is over get thrown out, is repeated by at least one other, all after it's proven that this isn't the case, and yet no one's called out on that?  That sort of thing calls more character into question than anything that can be derived from this non-journalistic article (and I say that having had a great professor and friend at Hobart who's wife worked at the D&C for many years, so I have some relationship to that firm as well).   

I would put RPI on their same level.  You aren't wrong in any of your thought process above...just my two cents based on the fact that RPI seems to make the top 50 overall schools list every year (US News and the Princeton Review), along with Rochester, and not just for their engineering program.

And I don't even like RPI...

EDIT...I would have added Cornell, but I didn't think they were relevent to the discussion as they do not have a D3 football team.

I know it was originally NY, but he also mentioned East Region, so let's not forget MIT.  Decent School.

[Yanks 99]

I agree with one of the IC posters that a lot of this speculation and conjecture has more to do with the historical relationship between Fisher and Rochester, and I don't mean on the football field, but rather institutionally. 

I think what people are ignoring is that UofR is the most national of all the schools in NY State, perhaps in the entire east region.  I'm sure someone will tout their school's communications program or engineering or whatever, but it's really true that Rochester is more concerned with outside of Rochester, perhaps outside of NY State much more than they are with Fisher, Brockport, etc. 

How about this, UofR doesn't see a reason to keep the game in their view as it relates to the schedule going forward, their relationship with the city or Fisher, institutional considerations, etc.  That doesn't mean they're lowlife's or suggest anything about their character.  The results are judged on whether the decision they make results in the outcomes they desired and/or hypothesized to occur.

And how is a rumor that the UofR AD ran over to Mervis to say the game is over get thrown out, is repeated by at least one other, all after it's proven that this isn't the case, and yet no one's called out on that?  That sort of thing calls more character into question than anything that can be derived from this non-journalistic article (and I say that having had a great professor and friend at Hobart who's wife worked at the D&C for many years, so I have some relationship to that firm as well).   

I would put RPI on their same level.  You aren't wrong in any of your thought process above...just my two cents based on the fact that RPI seems to make the top 50 overall schools list every year (US News and the Princeton Review), along with Rochester, and not just for their engineering program.

And I don't even like RPI...

EDIT...I would have added Cornell, but I didn't think they were relevent to the discussion as they do not have a D3 football team.

I know it was originally NY, but he also mentioned East Region, so let's not forget MIT.  Decent School.

They have one or two smart people there...smart janitor too...

[Frank Rossi]

There was a time that Union was banned from continuing or restarting a series with Hartwick based on academic reputation mismatch, in the mind of Union's former college president.  There's the idea that "You are who you play" at the end of the day.  It may have prevented a Utica matchup in some ways until recently.  With economics being what they are now, though, schools like Union prefer to not overspend on travel if they can avoid it -- and local teams (or teams that don't require overnighters) are a key component.  Not all schools have adopted that newer thinking, and I stand by my statement that Rochester wants to retain Case or a school like case based on exposure in Ohio and the like-minded institution concept.  That may make Fisher odd man out if Rochester has added another game and wants to remain at 9 games.

[Pat Coleman]

That sort of thing calls more character into question than anything that can be derived from this non-journalistic article (and I say that having had a great professor and friend at Hobart who's wife worked at the D&C for many years, so I have some relationship to that firm as well).   

Can you say a little bit more about that? I've known and read Jim Mandelaro for years and have never gotten that impression.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20111020/SPORTS09/110200341/UR-may-planning-bow-out-Courage-Bowl

[Jonny Utah]

There was a time that Union was banned from continuing or restarting a series with Hartwick based on academic reputation mismatch, in the mind of Union's former college president.  There's the idea that "You are who you play" at the end of the day.  It may have prevented a Utica matchup in some ways until recently.  With economics being what they are now, though, schools like Union prefer to not overspend on travel if they can avoid it -- and local teams (or teams that don't require overnighters) are a key component.  Not all schools have adopted that newer thinking, and I stand by my statement that Rochester wants to retain Case or a school like case based on exposure in Ohio and the like-minded institution concept.  That may make Fisher odd man out if Rochester has added another game and wants to remain at 9 games.

Do people really care about "mind like institutions" at the d3 level?  I can understand if you are going to spend more on sports and whatnot, but it kind of makes the nescac look like they know what they are doing.  They only play each other and at the end of the day agree that they should only play each other, regardless of the playoffs.

[Bombers798891]

There was a time that Union was banned from continuing or restarting a series with Hartwick based on academic reputation mismatch, in the mind of Union's former college president.  There's the idea that "You are who you play" at the end of the day. 

Wasn't that also Union's reasoning for not playing Ithaca back in the Butterfield days? I still hear people talk about Jim's "We'd play them in the parking lot" comment about Union

[Pat Coleman]

Yes, conferences and presidents care about such things.

[Jonny Utah]

Yes, conferences and presidents care about such things.

I can see where conferences might want to have the reputation type issues, and in some places I can see why you wouldn't want to play another school if the level of competition will be so different (Ithaca and Wells College).  But at the d3 level everyone is basically the same.  MIT seems to do ok for itself on that issue.  Unless MIT is so far out of everyone else league acacemically that they don't care about this kind of stuff.

[pumkinattack]

Pat, two thoughts meshed together.  I do think the article isn't well balanced and that's what I meant by non-journalistic, heavily emphasizing Mervis' position (who has multiple dog's in the hunt being involved in the game/event and also working, even if unpaid, for SJF's football program) and throwing in the canned AD email comment against it. 

Separately, I meant that in reading this story, knowing UofR a bit on a variety of levels (one of my best friend's and groomsmen went there and his reputation is impeccable with cause) I'd more likely question the character of the poster flaming UofR for being "like that" based on zero evidence other than his belief's.  That would be 82.  I don't know him and don't care, but if I tripped across this and really took the time to consider the "evidence" that he's based his statement's on, I'd find his credibility (in this anonymous blog world) to be questioned more likely than to conclude that UofR has some collective character flaw that led to this supposed travesty. 

Hell, I want to write a $30k check to Camp Good Day's to get all the whiners to shut up about it, but my wife has already earmarked any and all liquidty of ours for home furnishings, clothing (for her) and other extranneous and wasteful items. 

And on other schools, it was early and I agree MIT is there and well above.  I think of RPI in very high regards, but having lived in NYC, DC and Atlanta, I'm more likely to run into people who know UofR than RPI (perhaps except that I know a lot of Georgia Tech engineer alums through my father-in-law, who are very familiar with RPI) and my experiences on the west coast have been the same.  As far as Utah's question, didn't IC try to move over to the LL not too long ago, or am I mis-remembering that? 

[Doid23]

There was a time that Union was banned from continuing or restarting a series with Hartwick based on academic reputation mismatch, in the mind of Union's former college president.  There's the idea that "You are who you play" at the end of the day. 

Wasn't that also Union's reasoning for not playing Ithaca back in the Butterfield days? I still hear people talk about Jim's "We'd play them in the parking lot" comment about Union

Yup. Remember, though, that was on the heals of leaving NESCAC, and the "academic reputation" sentiment was very high, along with the sensitivity around sports given the Union Hockey scandal in the 70's.

[Pat Coleman]

As a writer I know there's not much you can do if the other side won't talk or will only make the canned statement. There was clearly some reporting done, and Jim emailed me for confirmation as to how the open dates part of our site works. But if U of R won't talk I wouldn't expect a writer to invent stuff either. This isn't some talking head on cable.

[Frank Rossi]

There was a time that Union was banned from continuing or restarting a series with Hartwick based on academic reputation mismatch, in the mind of Union's former college president.  There's the idea that "You are who you play" at the end of the day. 

Wasn't that also Union's reasoning for not playing Ithaca back in the Butterfield days? I still hear people talk about Jim's "We'd play them in the parking lot" comment about Union

Yup. Remember, though, that was on the heals of leaving NESCAC, and the "academic reputation" sentiment was very high, along with the sensitivity around sports given the Union Hockey scandal in the 70's.

From what I understand, the scales tipped back to a point somewhere in the late 90s/early 00s where Ithaca didn't want to play Union, as Union may have inquired.  We finally got to the point of 2009 where the rivalry restarted, thankfully.

[pumkinattack]

My comment wasn't really about the D&C and wasn't intended to get on that topic at all.  I keep reading this story and it's framed with a specific angle.  The way it's framed is as if there's merit to the idea that Mervis is owed a seat at the table as UofR is planning their future, before making any decision on said future.  Maybe that's how all the print media elects to write across the board these days.   

If you want, I'll edit out the journalistic comment notwithstanding how I feel reading the piece numerous times, but the point remains that if you read the story, there's a huge bridge to gap to get to UofR is "like that".   

[Doid23]

UR is 'like that'.  Back in 91-92, our program tried relentlessly to schedule UR, when we were trying to establish the program just after Vosburgh took over.  They resisted but when they did agree to the game, they drubbed us twice and moved on from us because they had nothing to gain by whipping lowly SJF. We just wanted to establish a local rivalry game and test ourselves annually against an established program

Now, they have everything to lose locally as a football program by getting drubbed annually, so they are moving on....

just my opinion

I see a lot of what "we" want in these posts. What SJF wants, what Mervis wants. What about what UofR wants?

As to UofR being "like that"? It seems they played a new SJF program when they really had no upside to doing it, yet they did it. It would be one thing if they wanted to play SJF so they could "drub them", but instead it was SJF who needed the game. As a coach or AD, I would want no part of helping a new program in my backyard start up, but UofR did.

Also, I agree with the posters that Mervis handled this wrong, but I'll give him a pass because he's doing good things for a good cause, and is obviously passionate about it. That being said, he would have been better served thanking UofR for the hundred of thousands of dollars they raised, and their efforts over the years, and moved on. Instead, any team contemplating replacing them will be very wary of the bad breakup, similar to a hot chick who is nuts. It might be good for a while, but when it ends, it will end very badly.

UofR has a right to do what's best for them. Just what was best for SJF was to play UofR in the early 90's, and Mervis to have them participate in the courage bowl. Ish happens, things change. When I was at Union, Hamilton was our biggest rival in football and hockey, now they don't even play. Now the Shoes game with RPI is their biggest rival. The Courage Bowl will move on as well. I hope Mervis keeps it going, and raises even more money next year.

[Jonny Utah]

Pat, two thoughts meshed together.  I do think the article isn't well balanced and that's what I meant by non-journalistic, heavily emphasizing Mervis' position (who has multiple dog's in the hunt being involved in the game/event and also working, even if unpaid, for SJF's football program) and throwing in the canned AD email comment against it. 

Separately, I meant that in reading this story, knowing UofR a bit on a variety of levels (one of my best friend's and groomsmen went there and his reputation is impeccable with cause) I'd more likely question the character of the poster flaming UofR for being "like that" based on zero evidence other than his belief's.  That would be 82.  I don't know him and don't care, but if I tripped across this and really took the time to consider the "evidence" that he's based his statement's on, I'd find his credibility (in this anonymous blog world) to be questioned more likely than to conclude that UofR has some collective character flaw that led to this supposed travesty. 

Hell, I want to write a $30k check to Camp Good Day's to get all the whiners to shut up about it, but my wife has already earmarked any and all liquidty of ours for home furnishings, clothing (for her) and other extranneous and wasteful items. 

And on other schools, it was early and I agree MIT is there and well above.  I think of RPI in very high regards, but having lived in NYC, DC and Atlanta, I'm more likely to run into people who know UofR than RPI (perhaps except that I know a lot of Georgia Tech engineer alums through my father-in-law, who are very familiar with RPI) and my experiences on the west coast have been the same. .  As far as Utah's question, didn't IC try to move over to the LL not too long ago, or am I mis-remembering that?

What does my question have to do with what Ithaca tried to do?  Although it would be nice to be in a conference with 2 overnight trips instead of 5.