FB: Empire 8

[Doid23]

Yes, conferences and presidents care about such things.

Unless MIT is so far out of everyone else league acacemically that they don't care about this kind of stuff.

That's what I think.

[Bombers798891]

There was a time that Union was banned from continuing or restarting a series with Hartwick based on academic reputation mismatch, in the mind of Union's former college president.  There's the idea that "You are who you play" at the end of the day. 

Wasn't that also Union's reasoning for not playing Ithaca back in the Butterfield days? I still hear people talk about Jim's "We'd play them in the parking lot" comment about Union

Yup. Remember, though, that was on the heals of leaving NESCAC, and the "academic reputation" sentiment was very high, along with the sensitivity around sports given the Union Hockey scandal in the 70's.

Plus, we were better  . Kidding. It would have been great to meet more than just once

[Jonny Utah]

There was a time that Union was banned from continuing or restarting a series with Hartwick based on academic reputation mismatch, in the mind of Union's former college president.  There's the idea that "You are who you play" at the end of the day. 

Wasn't that also Union's reasoning for not playing Ithaca back in the Butterfield days? I still hear people talk about Jim's "We'd play them in the parking lot" comment about Union

Yup. Remember, though, that was on the heals of leaving NESCAC, and the "academic reputation" sentiment was very high, along with the sensitivity around sports given the Union Hockey scandal in the 70's.

From what I understand, the scales tipped back to a point somewhere in the late 90s/early 00s where Ithaca didn't want to play Union, as Union may have inquired.  We finally got to the point of 2009 where the rivalry restarted, thankfully.

Not that Ithaca is better than anyone Frank, but I highly doubt that Welch didn't want to play Union because Union may have been better.  I have always had the understanding that Welch and Audino were friends, and that the two kind of liked not playing each other in the 1990s.  But I don't think Ithaca would ever turn down the chance to play any upstate team under any circumstance. 

[Bombers798891]

There was a time that Union was banned from continuing or restarting a series with Hartwick based on academic reputation mismatch, in the mind of Union's former college president.  There's the idea that "You are who you play" at the end of the day. 

Wasn't that also Union's reasoning for not playing Ithaca back in the Butterfield days? I still hear people talk about Jim's "We'd play them in the parking lot" comment about Union

Yup. Remember, though, that was on the heals of leaving NESCAC, and the "academic reputation" sentiment was very high, along with the sensitivity around sports given the Union Hockey scandal in the 70's.

From what I understand, the scales tipped back to a point somewhere in the late 90s/early 00s where Ithaca didn't want to play Union, as Union may have inquired.  We finally got to the point of 2009 where the rivalry restarted, thankfully.

Not that Ithaca is better than anyone Frank, but I highly doubt that Welch didn't want to play Union because Union may have been better.  I have always had the understanding that Welch and Audino were friends, and that the two kind of liked not playing each other in the 1990s.  But I don't think Ithaca would ever turn down the chance to play any upstate team under any circumstance.

On the other hand, we had enough problems qualifying for the playoffs under Mike in the 1990's without adding Union to the mix.

[pumkinattack]

You asked if like minded mattered.  What was the motivation for IC to move from the E8 to the LL, if they were interested in doing so?  It's got to do with more than just football, so the E8's risk of losing a Pool A is only one small consideration for the school.  Beyond that why would anyone leave one conference with similary geography (aside from the Frostberg/Salisbury temporal move into the E8) then for some strategic institutional reason.  I don't know if it's major's offered or something else, but there has to be an institutional level reason for leaving one conference for another.  In Susquehanna's case it was because they wanted to be closer to PA schools travelwise. 

[Bombers798891]

You asked if like minded mattered.  What was the motivation for IC to move from the E8 to the LL, if they were interested in doing so?  It's got to do with more than just football, so the E8's risk of losing a Pool A is only one small consideration for the school.  Beyond that why would anyone leave one conference with similary geography (aside from the Frostberg/Salisbury temporal move into the E8) then for some strategic institutional reason.  I don't know if it's major's offered or something else, but there has to be an institutional level reason for leaving one conference for another.  In Susquehanna's case it was because they wanted to be closer to PA schools travelwise.

I've heard it was academically based

[Frank Rossi]

We were told and I've heard it was a geographical decision.

[Jonny Utah]

You asked if like minded mattered.  What was the motivation for IC to move from the E8 to the LL, if they were interested in doing so?  It's got to do with more than just football, so the E8's risk of losing a Pool A is only one small consideration for the school.  Beyond that why would anyone leave one conference with similary geography (aside from the Frostberg/Salisbury temporal move into the E8) then for some strategic institutional reason.  I don't know if it's major's offered or something else, but there has to be an institutional level reason for leaving one conference for another.  In Susquehanna's case it was because they wanted to be closer to PA schools travelwise.

Ok it just seemed like you were trying to answer my question with another question.  Both questions are the same.  A stable conference might be the biggest reason for joining the LL, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Ithaca didn't want to be in that league for academic reasons as well.  But just because I went to Ithaca doesn't mean I have to think joining these conferences is good for division 3 sports.

[pumkinattack]

I'm not going to search for it, but I think I posted a general rant about all this conference shuffling at our level a year or more ago. 

I agree that it's foolish and think that it's the byproduct of the rules created by the NCAA.  I'm not saying I have a better system, but there's almost always unintended consequences of allowing auto bids and it's clear that a bastardaization of the concept of conferences is a consequence of this system.  I see it in DI lacrosse a bunch as well, to the detriment of Hobart's DI future (which I support) and as such am acutely sensitive to all of this. 

All that being said, you're question may have a ton of merit if it were "should we care about like minded institutions", but I think you know the answer to the question "do administrators, board members, etc. at these institutions care about like minded".  We give college leaders way too much credit as agnostic academics.  They're not and haven't been since Duke started buying high caliber liberal arts professors in the 60's. 

[Pat Coleman]

I'm not going to search for it, but I think I posted a general rant about all this conference shuffling at our level a year or more ago. 

I agree that it's foolish and think that it's the byproduct of the rules created by the NCAA. 

This is kind of a minor point but I think it's important to remember that the rules are not created by the NCAA. The rules are created by the member schools. This reform package was voted in by members of Division III in the late 1990s with the goal of making it possible for all qualifying conferences to get to the NCAA tournament in every sport.

It's certainly up for debate as to whether this was a good idea, etc., but it wasn't something foisted on us from Indianapolis. (Or Overland Park, which is where NCAA HQ was when this concept started up.) It's something schools wanted. And schools in power conferences had to agree to give up some championship access in order for this to occur.

[dlippiel]

Just a heads up fellas, Time Warner Cable (Capital District channels 1 and 3) will be showing the Ithaca/Utica football game at 1:30 this afternoon. dlip is not sure if it will be on channel 1 or 3, but he knows it will be on one of them. Good luck to both teams, but dlip is pulling for the Bombers today.

[dewcrew88]

Utica scores a program-defining win, 20-15, over Ithaca.

I have to admit, after seeing Ithaca get the better of the Pioneers for a decade, it got a little dusty in here afterward the clock reached zeroes.

[AUPepBand]

Final from Bobcat Stadium:
Frostburg 54, Alfred 53 (2OTs)

[Bombers798891]

Alfred...words fail me. This team is way too talented to be playing like this

[sjfcards]

Wow...I was wtching the Fisher game online and the Ithaca game on TV. When IC lost I thought, " well that is nuts". Then I found out about the AU game!?!? What is going on in Alfred?