FB: Empire 8

[Bombers798891]

I believe a lot of what we're seeing is IC's tuition killing the program. When I was at the football picnic earlier this year, Mike Welch said something very interesting. He was talking about the incoming class and he said they had some talent, but "not as many players as they had hoped for." I think you're seeing IC get hit in the depth department. You're able to recruit a great unit or tow (LB's/CB's) but other units are deficient (OL), and if some positions don't pan out--like say QB--you don't have the talent to make up for it.

I agree with that assessment 100%. I would also add that the administration has started to show more of a push in other sports. IC has always been great at all sports (obviously), and I am not saying that the administration is trying to gut the football program. But, have you seen that new A&E center at Ithaca? That is an incredible facility, and has no football amenities to it. I don't think the Football team has any use for it. The Soccer, lacrosse, track, and especially swimming teams are going to get a huge boost to recruiting, but when was the last time IC upgraded the football facilities (I honestly don't know and am asking sincerely)?

I still think IC, as an institution, is committed to football, but the other sports are getting more support and it may have an impact.

Yeah, the football team doesn't get much from it. They can practice there, and I have a feeling the weight room is going to be used heavily by them, but it's not exactly football-centric. It will be interesting to see going forward what happens there.

[Yanks 99]

Bombers,
I say that it is doubtful that he stays long term....Now I say that and am inferring 10 or more years.....

I agree...not that I am strarting a rumor here...but how much longer will Coach Welch actually be around?  Using really quick math, Coach Welch is around 60 years old.  Let's say he goes another 10 years and then retires.  I don't think I would be too crazy to assume that Coach Faggiano would throw his name in the hat for the Bombers job...

[Bombers798891]

Bombers,
I say that it is doubtful that he stays long term....Now I say that and am inferring 10 or more years.....

I agree...not that I am strarting a rumor here...but how much longer will Coach Welch actually be around?  Using really quick math, Coach Welch is around 60 years old.  Let's say he goes another 10 years and then retires.  I don't think I would be too crazy to assume that Coach Faggiano would throw his name in the hat for the Bombers job...

And 10 years might be pushing it, especially given the struggles, many of which may be beyond his control. Mike's had a great career, and is a great guy, but I have to wonder how much longer he wants to fight against out of control tuition that hurts his team. It would wear on me and I'm half his age

[fisheralum91]

Bombers---Blaise has to sell UC at 34k a year.....
Not an easy task....

[Yanks 99]

Bombers,
I say that it is doubtful that he stays long term....Now I say that and am inferring 10 or more years.....

I agree...not that I am strarting a rumor here...but how much longer will Coach Welch actually be around?  Using really quick math, Coach Welch is around 60 years old.  Let's say he goes another 10 years and then retires.  I don't think I would be too crazy to assume that Coach Faggiano would throw his name in the hat for the Bombers job...

And 10 years might be pushing it, especially given the struggles, many of which may be beyond his control. Mike's had a great career, and is a great guy, but I have to wonder how much longer he wants to fight against out of control tuition that hurts his team. It would wear on me and I'm half his age

No arguements here...I was just using 10 years, because even though 10 years seems like a long time, we know it can go pretty quick.

I agree that tuition is almost certainly hurting Ithaca.  If you remember a few weeks back, I broke down some tuition numbers from the Liberty League vs. the Empire 8 in relation to the LL's recent "fall from grace", if you will.  While the LL has bigger issues with their tuition and room and board rates, I agree with you at some point, and even in the E8, enough is enough.  Parents really are paying attention at the whole economy, as a whole, now and are asking themselves if their children really need to saddle themselves with additional tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt to go to "School A" vs. "School B" when "School A" will cost $10,000+ a year more.

Personally...this is the next "bubble".  Everything has declined in a big, big way over the recent years...but "big education" keeps moving along to the tune of 4-7% increases each year above the rate of inflation with a simple, yet unbelievable, attitude of "nothing to see here"...

[Yanks 99]

Bombers---Blaise has to sell UC at 34k a year.....
Not an easy task....

Neither is selling Ithaca right now to the tune of $48,000+ each year (tuition plus room/board only)...

[SJFF82]

I agree with one of the IC posters that a lot of this speculation and conjecture has more to do with the historical relationship between Fisher and Rochester, and I don't mean on the football field, but rather institutionally. 

I think what people are ignoring is that UofR is the most national of all the schools in NY State, perhaps in the entire east region.  I'm sure someone will tout their school's communications program or engineering or whatever, but it's really true that Rochester is more concerned with outside of Rochester, perhaps outside of NY State much more than they are with Fisher, Brockport, etc. 

How about this, UofR doesn't see a reason to keep the game in their view as it relates to the schedule going forward, their relationship with the city or Fisher, institutional considerations, etc.  That doesn't mean they're lowlife's or suggest anything about their character.  The results are judged on whether the decision they make results in the outcomes they desired and/or hypothesized to occur.

And how is a rumor that the UofR AD ran over to Mervis to say the game is over get thrown out, is repeated by at least one other, all after it's proven that this isn't the case, and yet no one's called out on that?  That sort of thing calls more character into question than anything that can be derived from this non-journalistic article (and I say that having had a great professor and friend at Hobart who's wife worked at the D&C for many years, so I have some relationship to that firm as well).   

how....was it you groomsman's third uncle twice removed, by marriage, that graduated from UR, you believe, that proved that the AD didnt go up to Mervis after the game?

[fisheralum91]

Yanks- NO argument there either....
It just was a shock to me that UC is more expensive than Fisher!

[Yanks 99]

Yanks- NO argument there either....
It just was a shock to me that UC is more expensive than Fisher!

I was surprised to see that as well when I first took a look at the overall numbers.  Going back to some of my previous posts on this issue (but not too far back), simply using Fisher vs. Ithaca...unless a kid really, really knows what he wants to do or which specific program they want to enter (ie. Communications or Physical Therapy programs at Ithaca)...as a parent, I would have a hard time telling my kid that they should go to Ithaca ($48,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) over St. John Fisher ($36,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) if my kid wanted a business degree (or another non-specialized degree).  My simple math skills immediately tells me that my kid has to find a way to pay for an additional $48,000 over the course of four years by going to Ithaca...and that these "cherry" loans and grants are drying up fast...

[Bombers798891]

Yanks- NO argument there either....
It just was a shock to me that UC is more expensive than Fisher!

as a parent, I would have a hard time telling my kid that they should go to Ithaca ($48,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) over St. John Fisher ($36,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) if my kid wanted a business degree (or another non-specialized degree)

That's another thing to think about. At every school, there are certain academic programs that are better than others, and therefore worth the extra cost. Not trying to rip on any specific program, or person who studies that program, but it's just the reality. If you don't have a lot of football players in those programs, it's tougher to get them to swallow the cost.

[sjfcards]

Yanks- NO argument there either....
It just was a shock to me that UC is more expensive than Fisher!

as a parent, I would have a hard time telling my kid that they should go to Ithaca ($48,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) over St. John Fisher ($36,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) if my kid wanted a business degree (or another non-specialized degree)

That's another thing to think about. At every school, there are certain academic programs that are better than others, and therefore worth the extra cost. Not trying to rip on any specific program, or person who studies that program, but it's just the reality. If you don't have a lot of football players in those programs, it's tougher to get them to swallow the cost.

I don't disagree with this, but I would also add that a lot of athletes choose a school based on the sport they want to play, and find a major that fits them. Not to say athletes don't major in specialized degrees, or that they just pick a major, but unless a D Lineman really wants to do something specific, I don't think one program over another has much of a draw. In other words, if a kid wants to study business is he really nitpicking between Fisher, IC, or UC based on the business schools rank? Or, do facilities and program reputation play more of a roll?

Now, if one school offers something another school doesn't offer (IC has Physical Therapy and Fisher does not, Fisher has a pharmacy school and IC does not, etc.) that may change things if the player is set on that career path. In general, however, I think you will find kids are recruited by the program, and the school fits into that.

[Yanks 99]

Yanks- NO argument there either....
It just was a shock to me that UC is more expensive than Fisher!

as a parent, I would have a hard time telling my kid that they should go to Ithaca ($48,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) over St. John Fisher ($36,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) if my kid wanted a business degree (or another non-specialized degree)

That's another thing to think about. At every school, there are certain academic programs that are better than others, and therefore worth the extra cost. Not trying to rip on any specific program, or person who studies that program, but it's just the reality. If you don't have a lot of football players in those programs, it's tougher to get them to swallow the cost.

I don't disagree with this, but I would also add that a lot of athletes choose a school based on the sport they want to play, and find a major that fits them. Not to say athletes don't major in specialized degrees, or that they just pick a major, but unless a D Lineman really wants to do something specific, I don't think one program over another has much of a draw. In other words, if a kid wants to study business is he really nitpicking between Fisher, IC, or UC based on the business schools rank? Or, do facilities and program reputation play more of a roll?

Now, if one school offers something another school doesn't offer (IC has Physical Therapy and Fisher does not, Fisher has a pharmacy school and IC does not, etc.) that may change things if the player is set on that career path. In general, however, I think you will find kids are recruited by the program, and the school fits into that.

4 years ago, I would agree with this much more then I do today...but in today's economy, I think the tuition costs are playing a much, much larger role then they were even a few short years ago.

If a kid wants to study business (I will use your example above, and mine from before), a few years he probably wasn't looking at where the schools rank as much (as in reality, is there really THAT much difference between...say...UC, IC, and SJFC at the end of the day?) and was probably looking more at facilities and program reputation.  But today...at least if I were a parent...the things that would be most important to me in this situation (a kid not 100% sure what he wanted to do, or looking to enter a specific program) would be $48,000+ for IC, $42,000+ for UC, and $36,000+ for SJFC.

I will give you an example...RPI opened their brand new facility in October of 2009 (which by all counts is stunning), and they have some world class educational programs.  Even their "non-engineering" majors are pretty highly ranked by almost every ranking publication.  Yet they are now staring at 3 straight seasons of 5-4 or 6-4 type seasons.  My guess is that the with the financial meltdown in late 2008 and a price tag of $53,500+ per year (just tuition and room/board), they just aren’t getting the kids that they used to...

[Bombers798891]

Yanks- NO argument there either....
It just was a shock to me that UC is more expensive than Fisher!

as a parent, I would have a hard time telling my kid that they should go to Ithaca ($48,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) over St. John Fisher ($36,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) if my kid wanted a business degree (or another non-specialized degree)

That's another thing to think about. At every school, there are certain academic programs that are better than others, and therefore worth the extra cost. Not trying to rip on any specific program, or person who studies that program, but it's just the reality. If you don't have a lot of football players in those programs, it's tougher to get them to swallow the cost.

I don't disagree with this, but I would also add that a lot of athletes choose a school based on the sport they want to play, and find a major that fits them. Not to say athletes don't major in specialized degrees, or that they just pick a major, but unless a D Lineman really wants to do something specific, I don't think one program over another has much of a draw. In other words, if a kid wants to study business is he really nitpicking between Fisher, IC, or UC based on the business schools rank? Or, do facilities and program reputation play more of a roll?

Now, if one school offers something another school doesn't offer (IC has Physical Therapy and Fisher does not, Fisher has a pharmacy school and IC does not, etc.) that may change things if the player is set on that career path. In general, however, I think you will find kids are recruited by the program, and the school fits into that.

4 years ago, I would agree with this much more then I do today...but in today's economy, I think the tuition costs are playing a much, much larger role then they were even a few short years ago.

If a kid wants to study business (I will use your example above, and mine from before), a few years he probably wasn't looking at where the schools rank as much (as in reality, is there really THAT much difference between...say...UC, IC, and SJFC at the end of the day?) and was probably looking more at facilities and program reputation.  But today...at least if I were a parent...the things that would be most important to me in this situation (a kid not 100% sure what he wanted to do, or looking to enter a specific program) would be $48,000+ for IC, $42,000+ for UC, and $36,000+ for SJFC.

I will give you an example...RPI opened their brand new facility in October of 2009 (which by all counts is stunning), and they have some world class educational programs.  Even their "non-engineering" majors are pretty highly ranked by almost every ranking publication.  Yet they are now staring at 3 straight seasons of 5-4 or 6-4 type seasons.  My guess is that the with the financial meltdown in late 2008 and a price tag of $53,500+ per year (just tuition and room/board), they just aren't getting the kids that they used to...

And the thing is, this is going to hit football first, because of the number of high quality players you need to have a truly great team. A sport like wrestling, IC is a national contender with five elite guys and two to three other solid players. In basketball, they can play 7-8 guys and win 20 games. Heck, in softball, lots of teams only have two pitchers they use for the whole season. Couple that with a handful of good hitters, and you're a World Series team.

But in football you've got two dozen starters, plus you better have some quality backups. They don't all have to be good, but you can't just ride a couple of players like you can in some other sports.

[sjfcards]

Yanks- NO argument there either....
It just was a shock to me that UC is more expensive than Fisher!

as a parent, I would have a hard time telling my kid that they should go to Ithaca ($48,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) over St. John Fisher ($36,000+ each year tuition plus room/board only) if my kid wanted a business degree (or another non-specialized degree)

That's another thing to think about. At every school, there are certain academic programs that are better than others, and therefore worth the extra cost. Not trying to rip on any specific program, or person who studies that program, but it's just the reality. If you don't have a lot of football players in those programs, it's tougher to get them to swallow the cost.

I don't disagree with this, but I would also add that a lot of athletes choose a school based on the sport they want to play, and find a major that fits them. Not to say athletes don't major in specialized degrees, or that they just pick a major, but unless a D Lineman really wants to do something specific, I don't think one program over another has much of a draw. In other words, if a kid wants to study business is he really nitpicking between Fisher, IC, or UC based on the business schools rank? Or, do facilities and program reputation play more of a roll?

Now, if one school offers something another school doesn't offer (IC has Physical Therapy and Fisher does not, Fisher has a pharmacy school and IC does not, etc.) that may change things if the player is set on that career path. In general, however, I think you will find kids are recruited by the program, and the school fits into that.

4 years ago, I would agree with this much more then I do today...but in today's economy, I think the tuition costs are playing a much, much larger role then they were even a few short years ago.

If a kid wants to study business (I will use your example above, and mine from before), a few years he probably wasn't looking at where the schools rank as much (as in reality, is there really THAT much difference between...say...UC, IC, and SJFC at the end of the day?) and was probably looking more at facilities and program reputation.  But today...at least if I were a parent...the things that would be most important to me in this situation (a kid not 100% sure what he wanted to do, or looking to enter a specific program) would be $48,000+ for IC, $42,000+ for UC, and $36,000+ for SJFC.

I will give you an example...RPI opened their brand new facility in October of 2009 (which by all counts is stunning), and they have some world class educational programs.  Even their "non-engineering" majors are pretty highly ranked by almost every ranking publication.  Yet they are now staring at 3 straight seasons of 5-4 or 6-4 type seasons.  My guess is that the with the financial meltdown in late 2008 and a price tag of $53,500+ per year (just tuition and room/board), they just aren't getting the kids that they used to...

And the thing is, this is going to hit football first, because of the number of high quality players you need to have a truly great team. A sport like wrestling, IC is a national contender with five elite guys and two to three other solid players. In basketball, they can play 7-8 guys and win 20 games. Heck, in softball, lots of teams only have two pitchers they use for the whole season. Couple that with a handful of good hitters, and you're a World Series team.

But in football you've got two dozen starters, plus you better have some quality backups. They don't all have to be good, but you can't just ride a couple of players like you can in some other sports.

I agree that this changes the dynamics for Football way more than other sports. You do need to have a lot more talent to set yourself apart from other schools. It is interesting. It is hard to believe that at this level increased academic standards and accredidation would be counterproductive to what the football program is trying to do.

[fulbakdad]

My son was recruited by Ithaca the last year.  He applied at 10 other schools and was a higher priority at most.  Ithaca was very let down when he didn't choose to go thier.  It came down to the money offered.  Ithaca was lower than 3 others.  They wanted him to challenge the offer. 

Welch acted very stange during the process.  Then when he made his decison not to go, tried to discredit the school he chose.

I think he made the right decision.......