FB: Empire 8

[stormyfuture]

Saint Thomas (UST) is 1 of 5 teams that has made the last 3 quarterfinals.  UWW/MUC are in a league by themselves having the last 6 Stagg bowls to themselves, but I think having made the last 3 quarterfinals, the next 3 teams have established firmly above a group of others.  UST, MHB, and Welsey comprise that group of 3

UMHB actually didn't make the quarterfinals back in 2009, its the only year they've missed since 2006.  Not that that changes anything about their tier.

good catch, not sure how I missed seeing Linfield beat them

[wesleydad]

SJFF82, as we discussed, that complete sentence was if Fisher makes mistakes they could get blown out.  My statement is not incorrect.  fisher did not make mistakes and won the game, which does not surprise me.  I stated that too.  I also said that if both teams play a clean game it would be close, Del Val did not and lost, which is what would be expected when you make the mistakes they made.  You are correct in that you did not see Fisher getting blown out, neither did I.

[skunks_sidekick]

From a Mount Union bias, I don't think Linfield should be considered Tier II.  Yes, they won a Stagg Bowl in 2004, and lost in the semi's in a great game in 2005, but then didn't make the play-offs for the next three years.

The same goes for North Central who has yet to make a semi-final.  SJF and Bethel have as much of a claim as those two, even though I don't think they are there.  Same goes for Wabash & Salisbury.

From my perspective it's probably MHB & Wesley are the two Tier II teams, with a larger grouping of Tier III "A" teams including NCC, Wabash, UST, Salisbury, and SJF. 

I have been very impressed with SJF's run so far, and admit I was one who thought they shouldn't have been in due to the way they lost their two games.  To all my East/E-8 buddies.......mea culpa....I was wr...wr.....wr......wrong.   

[boobyhasgameyo]

From a Mount Union bias, I don't think Linfield should be considered Tier II.  Yes, they won a Stagg Bowl in 2004, and lost in the semi's in a great game in 2005, but then didn't make the play-offs for the next three years.

The same goes for North Central who has yet to make a semi-final.  SJF and Bethel have as much of a claim as those two, even though I don't think they are there.  Same goes for Wabash & Salisbury.

From my perspective it's probably MHB & Wesley are the two Tier II teams, with a larger grouping of Tier III "A" teams including NCC, Wabash, UST, Salisbury, and SJF. 

I have been very impressed with SJF's run so far, and admit I was one who thought they shouldn't have been in due to the way they lost their two games.  To all my East/E-8 buddies.......mea culpa....I was wr...wr.....wr......wrong.   

That last part must have been tough for you...here is some positive karma dap to help it go down smoother. 

[fisheralum91]

+k from an alum that saw the carnage when you came to Growney and still didnt feel bad about my team nor the oponents fans!
You guys are a classy lot.

[Bombers798891]

The conference-by-conference records are updated weekly in the postseason:

http://www.d3football.com/interactive/faq/playoffs#9

What I'd love to see, and I know this a virtual impossibility given your guys' workload, so I'm just throwing it out there as a sort of "I'd love it if Olivia Wilde were madly in love with me" thing, is a points scored/allowed breakdown. Be interesting to see.

Would also love to see a breakdown of records for teams within a conference. I am sure MUC and UWW pump up their conferences numbers. In the WIAC how much of the winning is St. Johns vs everyone else? (This is not a knock on everyone else, I am honestly curious).

Did breakdowns for a couple more conferences:

E8:
Ithaca        2-4 Losses to Cortland St, RPI, Union, and Curry
SJF             8-3 Losses to Delaware Valley, Mount Union (2)
Springfield 1-1 Loss to SJF
Hartwick    0-1 Loss to Curry
Alfred         2-2 Losses to Albright and Mount Union
Salisbury    2-0 (results while in ACFC excluded)

OAC:
Mount Union         48-6 Losses to Rowan, SJU, UMHB, UWW (3)
Ohio Northern       4-3  Losses to Mount Union (2), North Central
John Carroll           3-1  Loss to Mount Union
Baldwin-Wallace   1-1   Loss to Wheaton
Capital                  4-3   Losses to Mount Union (2), UWW
Otterbein              0-1   Loss to Franklin

WIAC:
Whitewater      29-3 Losses to Mount Union (3)
Stout                 0-1  Loss to SJU
Stevens Point    1-3  Losses to Wartburg, SJU (2)
LaCrosse           3-5  Losses to Central, Coe, Mount Union, Linfield, UWW
Eau Claire          1-1 Loss to Bethel

Thanks Ithaca & Hartwick for giving the NEFC their only two playoff wins...EVER...

That Curry game at Ithaca still makes me scratch my head.

It makes me want to punch things. One of the best teams Welch has had. Also, a general note that Ithaca's 4th playoff loss was not to Cortland State, but Mount Union in 2007.

[WashedUp]

It makes me want to punch things. One of the best teams Welch has had. Also, a general note that Ithaca's 4th playoff loss was not to Cortland State, but Mount Union in 2007.

You're right, I must have clicked on the wrong year in the links.  Same year Hartwick lost to Curry and SJF lost to Mount Union in the quarters, and I think the only year a conference has sent three teams to the playoffs.

[Bombers798891]

I generally believe that St. Thomas has moved into the second tier. It's hard to know until they play a purple power (aka Tier I team) but that's the impression based on having beaten Linfield last year.

In Gordon Mann's tier theory, which I am greatly simplifying, Tier II teams could beat Tier I teams by playing essentially a perfect game of if things break the right way... (I think it's fair to say the current Tier II teams are Wesley, Mary Hardin-Baylor, St. Thomas, North Central, Linfield.)

Well, are we talking a one-game situation? Because Oshkosh gave Whitewater all they could handle, leading at halftime, only losing by three, and making several drives into Whitewater territory late in the game. Baldwin-Wallace was leading Mount Union late in the 4th quarter. If Mount doesn't hit that 4th and 11, B-W wins that game most likely. Wouldn't these teams then fit into Gordon's theory?

It's shortsighted to relate everything to how a team might or did do against UWW/MUC. Shouldn't consistent playoff success matter too? Oshkosh hasn't gone better than 7-3 since before this site had records. Baldwin Wallace has had one year better than 8-2.

Other teams have had the same issues. Ohio Northern beat Mount in 2005 and went 18-12 over the next three season. Capital nearly beat Mount in 2009, but they've gone 22-18 over the last four seasons. Stevens beat Whiteater in 2008, but they lost in the first round of the playoffs that year and haven't been back since.

All these teams would seem to fit Gordon's description of a Tier II team, but none of them ever made legitimate strides in the playoffs--if they even came close to qualifying. I think Pat's assessment of Tier II teams is closer to the truth.

Frankly, I'd view it this way: Take Mount and Whitewater completely out of the equation, pretend they don't exist. Who's a legitimate Stagg contender? All the teams Pat listed make my list, but many of the teams that have (or almost) beaten UWW-MUC don't

[Pat Coleman]

From a Mount Union bias, I don't think Linfield should be considered Tier II.  Yes, they won a Stagg Bowl in 2004, and lost in the semi's in a great game in 2005, but then didn't make the play-offs for the next three years.

The same goes for North Central who has yet to make a semi-final.  SJF and Bethel have as much of a claim as those two, even though I don't think they are there.  Same goes for Wabash & Salisbury.

From my perspective it's probably MHB & Wesley are the two Tier II teams, with a larger grouping of Tier III "A" teams including NCC, Wabash, UST, Salisbury, and SJF. 

I have been very impressed with SJF's run so far, and admit I was one who thought they shouldn't have been in due to the way they lost their two games.  To all my East/E-8 buddies.......mea culpa....I was wr...wr.....wr......wrong.   

They were playing some scholarship schools, lost to playoff teams, played Hardin-Simmons, etc. Linfield wasn't ducking teams in going 6-3.

I'll just say I disagree with your perspective. I'm not sure you needed to be in the playoffs in 2008 to be a Tier II team in 2011.

[SJFF82]

SJFF82, as we discussed, that complete sentence was if Fisher makes mistakes they could get blown out.  My statement is not incorrect.  fisher did not make mistakes and won the game, which does not surprise me.  I stated that too.  I also said that if both teams play a clean game it would be close, Del Val did not and lost, which is what would be expected when you make the mistakes they made.  You are correct in that you did not see Fisher getting blown out, neither did I.

my post was not to point out anything you had posted, really I was just 'tooting my own horn' in that I had stated that I believed barring mistakes, we would win by 14-20 and we won by 13....

....however, we digress....you have to admit, your post was slanted towards a DVC victory and what Fisher would have to do to win or even avoid a blow-out.  I suspect if they played again this week, you would be expressing,"If DVC makes some mistakes they could get blown out" 

82 aint mad at a Wesleydad....I generally appreciate your posts.

[sjfcards]

Take Mount and Whitewater completely out of the equation, pretend they don't exist. Who's a legitimate Stagg contender?

The DIII playoffs would be a lot more fun if we could do that. I like MUC and UWW as much as the next guy, but it really is not fun going into the playoffs playing for 3rd place. Nothing against UWW or MUC, they simply get it done more than anyone else, but I would love to see some variety. Even if it wasn't Fisher.

The 2006 Fisher team was about as good as it is going to get for most schools, and a 12 point playoff loss to MUC is about all most teams can hope for.

[SJFF82]

Take Mount and Whitewater completely out of the equation, pretend they don't exist. Who's a legitimate Stagg contender?

The DIII playoffs would be a lot more fun if we could do that. I like MUC and UWW as much as the next guy, but it really is not fun going into the playoffs playing for 3rd place. Nothing against UWW or MUC, they simply get it done more than anyone else, but I would love to see some variety. Even if it wasn't Fisher.

The 2006 Fisher team was about as good as it is going to get for most schools, and a 12 point playoff loss to MUC is about all most teams can hope for.

the stars were just about alligned in '06...

[sjfcards]

Take Mount and Whitewater completely out of the equation, pretend they don't exist. Who's a legitimate Stagg contender?

The DIII playoffs would be a lot more fun if we could do that. I like MUC and UWW as much as the next guy, but it really is not fun going into the playoffs playing for 3rd place. Nothing against UWW or MUC, they simply get it done more than anyone else, but I would love to see some variety. Even if it wasn't Fisher.

The 2006 Fisher team was about as good as it is going to get for most schools, and a 12 point playoff loss to MUC is about all most teams can hope for.

the stars were just about alligned in '06...

Right. If that Fisher team can't beat MUC with Garcon having a broken hand, then I don't know what it takes to beat them.

[USTBench]

Take Mount and Whitewater completely out of the equation, pretend they don't exist. Who's a legitimate Stagg contender?

The DIII playoffs would be a lot more fun if we could do that. I like MUC and UWW as much as the next guy, but it really is not fun going into the playoffs playing for 3rd place. Nothing against UWW or MUC, they simply get it done more than anyone else, but I would love to see some variety. Even if it wasn't Fisher.

The 2006 Fisher team was about as good as it is going to get for most schools, and a 12 point playoff loss to MUC is about all most teams can hope for.

the stars were just about alligned in '06...

Right. If that Fisher team can't beat MUC with Garcon having a broken hand, then I don't know what it takes to beat them.

Is the answer Jesus?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJkHm2WtSsk

[Bombers798891]

Take Mount and Whitewater completely out of the equation, pretend they don't exist. Who's a legitimate Stagg contender?

The DIII playoffs would be a lot more fun if we could do that. I like MUC and UWW as much as the next guy, but it really is not fun going into the playoffs playing for 3rd place. Nothing against UWW or MUC, they simply get it done more than anyone else, but I would love to see some variety. Even if it wasn't Fisher.

The 2006 Fisher team was about as good as it is going to get for most schools, and a 12 point playoff loss to MUC is about all most teams can hope for.

Yeah I know what you mean. Teams deserve all the success they can earn, but it's a bit discouraging. This stat gets more and more astounding every year: Since the start of 2005, Mount and Whitewater are (by my math) 181-2 against D-III teams besides each other. Blows my mind.