FB: Empire 8

[dlippiel]

Per square mile, the east has the best football in the country.

I'd certainly like to see that proven mathematically.

1+1=2

[Bombers798891]

Per square mile, the east has the best most D3 football programs in the country.

fixed

It is fixed, and it may be part of the problem. You've got so many programs, many of whom are not content to simply be mediocre, and there's more options for those athletes. I'd really like to see a roster spot breakdown for high school and colleges in regions. How many high schools players are competing for how many roster spots in colleges? Since D-III football is largely regional I wonder if it's becoming a problem of the talent being spread too thin?

By my hasty count, there are 68 D-III schools in the East region, 59 in the West, 57 in the North, and 55 in the South. I know that some of these different regions draw from the same state, and teams can go out of region in recruiting, but if you've got 9-13 additional teams, that could be another 500 spots for kids to go to.

I know, there might be more high school teams in the East too, or a higher number of D-III caliber athletes. It also doesn't take into account other levels of college. (Like the NAIA schools or Ivy's or whatever) This isn't a scientific study or anything. Just spitballing and wondering if more teams can be a detriment to a region's ability to get top-flight teams?

[02 Warhawk]

Per square mile, the east has the best most D3 football programs in the country.

fixed

It is fixed, and it may be part of the problem. You've got so many programs, many of whom are not content to simply be mediocre, and there's more options for those athletes. I'd really like to see a roster spot breakdown for high school and colleges in regions. How many high schools players are competing for how many roster spots in colleges? Since D-III football is largely regional I wonder if it's becoming a problem of the talent being spread too thin?

By my hasty count, there are 68 D-III schools in the East region, 59 in the West, 57 in the North, and 55 in the South. I know that some of these different regions draw from the same state, and teams can go out of region in recruiting, but if you've got 9-13 additional teams, that could be another 500 spots for kids to go to.

I know, there might be more high school teams in the East too, or a higher number of D-III caliber athletes. It also doesn't take into account other levels of college. (Like the NAIA schools or Ivy's or whatever) This isn't a scientific study or anything. Just spitballing and wondering if more teams can be a detriment to a region's ability to get top-flight teams?

I 100% agree. Recuiting out there has to be a nightmare for coaches. With all those competing programs around you.

[ExTartanPlayer]

It is fixed, and it may be part of the problem. You've got so many programs, many of whom are not content to simply be mediocre, and there's more options for those athletes. I'd really like to see a roster spot breakdown for high school and colleges in regions. How many high schools players are competing for how many roster spots in colleges? Since D-III football is largely regional I wonder if it's becoming a problem of the talent being spread too thin?

More spitballing here...

I've previously stated that, IMHO, this is PART of the reason why the WIAC schools are so tough.  The WIAC schools are large, state-supported universities that are much more akin to Pennsylvania's PSAC schools or West Virginia's WVIAC schools than they are to the Division III schools in Pennsylvania and West Virginia (which are generally smaller private institutions), and there are relatively "few" of them compared to the available talent pool in the state.  I may not be correct, but I don't believe there's a significant FCS presence or Division II presence in Wisconsin.

This is a sweeping generalization, but if you're a solid high school football player in Wisconsin that's a) not a Division I-A scholarship player, b) really wants to play college football, and c) really wants to stay close to home for college, chances are pretty good that you end up at one of those WIAC schools.

Now suppose that you're the same guy, but you live in Pennsylvania.  There are a decent number of FCS schools (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Villanova, Duquesne, Robert Morris...this list goes on for a while).  There's the Division II PSAC schools (I think there are 14 of them).  And THEN we get to Division III...and there are something like 25 Division III football teams in Pennsylvania.  The available HS football talent in PA gets stretched an awful lot thinner than it does in Wisconsin.

(Yes, I'm aware that I'm making some naive assumptions, and plenty of players don't stay in their home state for college. Just humor me.)

I used the PA example because it's my home state, but I'm aware that this extends in similar fashion to NJ, NY, and much of the East Region.  There are a TON of football-playing schools concentrated in a relatively small area, which is a net GOOD thing, but that does make it harder to generate a "superpower" because there are just so many options for decent high-school players.

It's not an "excuse" nor is it the ENTIRE reason why some regions dominate and others don't.  But it's most certainly worth some discussion.

I admit that Mount Union is somewhat of an impressive exception here.  There are plenty of Division III programs in Ohio, plus a noteworthy FCS presence, and certainly dozens more options within driving distance.

[Bombers798891]

It is fixed, and it may be part of the problem. You've got so many programs, many of whom are not content to simply be mediocre, and there's more options for those athletes. I'd really like to see a roster spot breakdown for high school and colleges in regions. How many high schools players are competing for how many roster spots in colleges? Since D-III football is largely regional I wonder if it's becoming a problem of the talent being spread too thin?

More spitballing here...

I've previously stated that, IMHO, this is PART of the reason why the WIAC schools are so tough.  The WIAC schools are large, state-supported universities that are much more akin to Pennsylvania's PSAC schools or West Virginia's WVIAC schools than they are to the Division III schools in Pennsylvania and West Virginia (which are generally smaller private institutions), and there are relatively "few" of them compared to the available talent pool in the state.  I may not be correct, but I don't believe there's a significant FCS presence or Division II presence in Wisconsin.

This is a sweeping generalization, but if you're a solid high school football player in Wisconsin that's a) not a Division I-A scholarship player, b) really wants to play college football, and c) really wants to stay close to home for college, chances are pretty good that you end up at one of those WIAC schools.

Now suppose that you're the same guy, but you live in Pennsylvania.  There are a decent number of FCS schools (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Villanova, Duquesne, Robert Morris...this list goes on for a while).  There's the Division II PSAC schools (I think there are 14 of them).  And THEN we get to Division III...and there are something like 25 Division III football teams in Pennsylvania.  The available HS football talent in PA gets stretched an awful lot thinner than it does in Wisconsin.

(Yes, I'm aware that I'm making some naive assumptions, and plenty of players don't stay in their home state for college. Just humor me.)

I used the PA example because it's my home state, but I'm aware that this extends in similar fashion to NJ, NY, and much of the East Region.  There are a TON of football-playing schools concentrated in a relatively small area, which is a net GOOD thing, but that does make it harder to generate a "superpower" because there are just so many options for decent high-school players.

It's not an "excuse" nor is it the ENTIRE reason why some regions dominate and others don't.  But it's most certainly worth some discussion.

I admit that Mount Union is somewhat of an impressive exception here.  There are plenty of Division III programs in Ohio, plus a noteworthy FCS presence, and certainly dozens more options within driving distance.

Loved this post. +K

[Jonny Utah]

Per square mile, the east has the best football in the country.

I'd certainly like to see that proven mathematically.

You could still do it.

If you had to gather up the best d3football players in any random 50,000 square mile area in the country, you might find that the east is where that area would be.  (We also have to consider that parts of PA are considered the North and South for d3 football purposes)

[repete]

It is fixed, and it may be part of the problem. You've got so many programs, many of whom are not content to simply be mediocre, and there's more options for those athletes. I'd really like to see a roster spot breakdown for high school and colleges in regions. How many high schools players are competing for how many roster spots in colleges? Since D-III football is largely regional I wonder if it's becoming a problem of the talent being spread too thin?

More spitballing here...

I've previously stated that, IMHO, this is PART of the reason why the WIAC schools are so tough.  The WIAC schools are large, state-supported universities that are much more akin to Pennsylvania's PSAC schools or West Virginia's WVIAC schools than they are to the Division III schools in Pennsylvania and West Virginia (which are generally smaller private institutions), and there are relatively "few" of them compared to the available talent pool in the state.  I may not be correct, but I don't believe there's a significant FCS presence or Division II presence in Wisconsin.

This is a sweeping generalization, but if you're a solid high school football player in Wisconsin that's a) not a Division I-A scholarship player, b) really wants to play college football, and c) really wants to stay close to home for college, chances are pretty good that you end up at one of those WIAC schools.

Now suppose that you're the same guy, but you live in Pennsylvania.  There are a decent number of FCS schools (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Villanova, Duquesne, Robert Morris...this list goes on for a while).  There's the Division II PSAC schools (I think there are 14 of them).  And THEN we get to Division III...and there are something like 25 Division III football teams in Pennsylvania.  The available HS football talent in PA gets stretched an awful lot thinner than it does in Wisconsin.

(Yes, I'm aware that I'm making some naive assumptions, and plenty of players don't stay in their home state for college. Just humor me.)

I used the PA example because it's my home state, but I'm aware that this extends in similar fashion to NJ, NY, and much of the East Region.  There are a TON of football-playing schools concentrated in a relatively small area, which is a net GOOD thing, but that does make it harder to generate a "superpower" because there are just so many options for decent high-school players.

It's not an "excuse" nor is it the ENTIRE reason why some regions dominate and others don't.  But it's most certainly worth some discussion.

I admit that Mount Union is somewhat of an impressive exception here.  There are plenty of Division III programs in Ohio, plus a noteworthy FCS presence, and certainly dozens more options within driving distance.

Don't necessarily disagree, but would add some other considerations. Wis. doesn't have much d2 or NAIA competition in state, but there's long been a large pipeline to the very healthy d2 schools in Minny, most notably Duluth (a former MIAC school, which has won two of the past three d2 titles).  Before they moved up from d2, North Dakota and North Dakota State also devoured the cheese.

I was surprised to see that in terms of actual d3 schools, Wisconsin despite its much smaller population, has more teams than NY ... if you can trust Wikipedia, a big if. 

A lot of factors and plenty of fodder for debate.

[Jonny Utah]

It is fixed, and it may be part of the problem. You've got so many programs, many of whom are not content to simply be mediocre, and there's more options for those athletes. I'd really like to see a roster spot breakdown for high school and colleges in regions. How many high schools players are competing for how many roster spots in colleges? Since D-III football is largely regional I wonder if it's becoming a problem of the talent being spread too thin?

More spitballing here...

I've previously stated that, IMHO, this is PART of the reason why the WIAC schools are so tough.  The WIAC schools are large, state-supported universities that are much more akin to Pennsylvania's PSAC schools or West Virginia's WVIAC schools than they are to the Division III schools in Pennsylvania and West Virginia (which are generally smaller private institutions), and there are relatively "few" of them compared to the available talent pool in the state.  I may not be correct, but I don't believe there's a significant FCS presence or Division II presence in Wisconsin.

This is a sweeping generalization, but if you're a solid high school football player in Wisconsin that's a) not a Division I-A scholarship player, b) really wants to play college football, and c) really wants to stay close to home for college, chances are pretty good that you end up at one of those WIAC schools.

Now suppose that you're the same guy, but you live in Pennsylvania.  There are a decent number of FCS schools (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Villanova, Duquesne, Robert Morris...this list goes on for a while).  There's the Division II PSAC schools (I think there are 14 of them).  And THEN we get to Division III...and there are something like 25 Division III football teams in Pennsylvania.  The available HS football talent in PA gets stretched an awful lot thinner than it does in Wisconsin.

(Yes, I'm aware that I'm making some naive assumptions, and plenty of players don't stay in their home state for college. Just humor me.)

I used the PA example because it's my home state, but I'm aware that this extends in similar fashion to NJ, NY, and much of the East Region.  There are a TON of football-playing schools concentrated in a relatively small area, which is a net GOOD thing, but that does make it harder to generate a "superpower" because there are just so many options for decent high-school players.

It's not an "excuse" nor is it the ENTIRE reason why some regions dominate and others don't.  But it's most certainly worth some discussion.

I admit that Mount Union is somewhat of an impressive exception here.  There are plenty of Division III programs in Ohio, plus a noteworthy FCS presence, and certainly dozens more options within driving distance.

Don't necessarily disagree, but would add some other considerations. Wis. doesn't have much d2 or NAIA competition in state, but there's long been a large pipeline to the very healthy d2 schools in Minny, most notably Duluth (a former MIAC school, which has won two of the past three d2 titles).  Before they moved up from d2, North Dakota and North Dakota State also devoured the cheese.

I was surprised to see that in terms of actual d3 schools, Wisconsin despite its much smaller population, has more teams than NY ... if you can trust Wikipedia, a big if. 

A lot of factors and plenty of fodder for debate.

A quick check of d3basketball shows that New York State has 59 d3 basketball programs.  Wisconsin had a lot at 29.

[repete]

my bad, an edit:

I was surprised to see that in terms of actual d3 football schools, Wisconsin despite its much smaller population, has more teams than NY ... if you can trust Wikipedia, a big if. 

[Jonny Utah]

my bad, an edit:

I was surprised to see that in terms of actual d3 football schools, Wisconsin despite its much smaller population, has more teams than NY ... if you can trust Wikipedia, a big if.

Yea WI is stacked with football schools.  I was still suprised to see that New York State has 59 basketball d3 schools.

[02 Warhawk]

my bad, an edit:

I was surprised to see that in terms of actual d3 football schools, Wisconsin despite its much smaller population, has more teams than NY ... if you can trust Wikipedia, a big if.

But what Wisconsin doesn't have is an abundance of college football programs above the DIII level. We have the Badgers and that's about it. No other DI schools. and zero DII schools.

So if you don't make Madison's team, and you want to stay in state, you're only bet is to play DIII football. WIAC football is the next best thing behind the Big10 in Wisconsin.

[repete]

UM-Duluth usually grabs 30-40 and that's just one Bong Bridge drive away.

St. Cloud also hit it hard, at least under their previous coach. Mankato a little less. But that's a a lot of talent. Back in the day when my brother was getting recruited to NDSU, it seemed half the incoming class was from Wis.

[Bombers798891]

Honestly, if we defined what we'd consider North, South, East, and West, I'd be more than willing, in my infinite boredom, to look up the number of schools in each region. with Wikipedia (assuming it's accurate) it's really not that hard to do, and I got the time. At least it would give us concrete evidence

[HScoach]

Here's the list for Ohio.  As you can see, there are a lot of college football teams in Ohio who are competing for the local talent.  The biggest impact to Mount Union is the long list of D2 schools.  Mount rarely competes against the D1's, but a lot of the kids Mount is trying to get also have partial scholarship offers from D2.  10-15 years ago the list of Ohio D2 schools was much smaller, but those programs are spouting up lately like stubborn weeds.  And they're putting a crimp on the Mount Union pipeline for talent.  Which IMHO is one of the reasons that Mount is recruiting Florida now.  They're trying to replace the local players that are now going D2. 

DI-FBS
1.  Ohio State University
2.  Akron
3.  Bowling Green
4.  Kent State
5.  Miami
6.  Ohio U.
7.  Toledo
8.  Cincinnatti

DI-FCS
9.  Dayton
10.  Youngstown State

DII
11.  Ashland
12.  Findlay
13.  Tiffin
14.  Central State U.
15.  Lake Erie College
16.  Urbana
17.  Ohio Dominican
18.  Cedarville
19.  Notre Dame College
20.  Ursuline
21.  Malone
22.  Walsh


DIII
23.  Hiram
24.  John Carroll
25.  Kenyon
26.  Marietta
27.  Mt. St. Joseph
28.  Mount Union
29.  Muskingham
30.  Oberlin
31.  Ohio Northern
32.  Ohio Wesleyan
33.  Otterbein
34.  Wilmington
35.  Wittenberg
36.  Wooster
37.  Baldwin Wallace
38.  Bluffton
39.  Capital
40.  Case Westeren
41.  Defiance
42.  Dennison
43.  Heidelberg

NAIA
none

[sjfcards]

It is fixed, and it may be part of the problem. You've got so many programs, many of whom are not content to simply be mediocre, and there's more options for those athletes. I'd really like to see a roster spot breakdown for high school and colleges in regions. How many high schools players are competing for how many roster spots in colleges? Since D-III football is largely regional I wonder if it's becoming a problem of the talent being spread too thin?

More spitballing here...

I've previously stated that, IMHO, this is PART of the reason why the WIAC schools are so tough.  The WIAC schools are large, state-supported universities that are much more akin to Pennsylvania's PSAC schools or West Virginia's WVIAC schools than they are to the Division III schools in Pennsylvania and West Virginia (which are generally smaller private institutions), and there are relatively "few" of them compared to the available talent pool in the state.  I may not be correct, but I don't believe there's a significant FCS presence or Division II presence in Wisconsin.

This is a sweeping generalization, but if you're a solid high school football player in Wisconsin that's a) not a Division I-A scholarship player, b) really wants to play college football, and c) really wants to stay close to home for college, chances are pretty good that you end up at one of those WIAC schools.

Now suppose that you're the same guy, but you live in Pennsylvania.  There are a decent number of FCS schools (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Villanova, Duquesne, Robert Morris...this list goes on for a while).  There's the Division II PSAC schools (I think there are 14 of them).  And THEN we get to Division III...and there are something like 25 Division III football teams in Pennsylvania.  The available HS football talent in PA gets stretched an awful lot thinner than it does in Wisconsin.

(Yes, I'm aware that I'm making some naive assumptions, and plenty of players don't stay in their home state for college. Just humor me.)

I used the PA example because it's my home state, but I'm aware that this extends in similar fashion to NJ, NY, and much of the East Region.  There are a TON of football-playing schools concentrated in a relatively small area, which is a net GOOD thing, but that does make it harder to generate a "superpower" because there are just so many options for decent high-school players.

It's not an "excuse" nor is it the ENTIRE reason why some regions dominate and others don't.  But it's most certainly worth some discussion.

I admit that Mount Union is somewhat of an impressive exception here.  There are plenty of Division III programs in Ohio, plus a noteworthy FCS presence, and certainly dozens more options within driving distance.

Don't necessarily disagree, but would add some other considerations. Wis. doesn't have much d2 or NAIA competition in state, but there's long been a large pipeline to the very healthy d2 schools in Minny, most notably Duluth (a former MIAC school, which has won two of the past three d2 titles).  Before they moved up from d2, North Dakota and North Dakota State also devoured the cheese.

I was surprised to see that in terms of actual d3 schools, Wisconsin despite its much smaller population, has more teams than NY ... if you can trust Wikipedia, a big if. 

A lot of factors and plenty of fodder for debate.

A quick check of d3basketball shows that New York State has 59 d3 basketball programs.  Wisconsin had a lot at 29.

Another thing to consider besides the volume of teams is  also proximity. When I was looking at schools (I was recruited for soccer) I sort of had an idea that Rochester is where I wanted to end up. That only narrowed my decision to Fisher, Naz, RIT, U of R, Roberts Wesleyan, Brockport, Geneseo, Hobart, Keuka, and MCC. For me it was a little easier since the schools that were really interested from that list were Fisher and RIT, and I didn't want to go to RIT.

But, look at each decent sized city in upstate and see how many football programs there are. Albany has RPI and Union, and Hartwick (also U of Albany and St. Rose I think). Syracuse has Ithaca and Cortland very close (and SU). Rochester has Fisher, U of R, Hobart, Brockport. Buffalo has Buff State and UB (I will throw Brockport in here as well).
Teams dont just have to compete with schools from the entire state. Teams have to battle just to be competitive in recruiting for a relatively small city's talent base.

I am not sure if he is following this conversation, but I would love to hear Robby's take on recruiting in the area.