FB: Empire 8

[AUPepBand]

Speaking of great backs, none was more versatile than Alfred's Jesse Raynor (AU '04), but then, much of his productivity wasn't within the past ten years. But he was featured in SI's "Faces in the Crowd" in December 2003:

Jesse Raynor, WEEDSPORT, N.Y.
Football
Raynor, a senior tailback at Alfred University, finished his career with 3,865 rushing yards, a school record. He was also a starting cornerback, the placekicker and the Saxons' top kick returner, and he was named Empire 8 Conference player of the year.

Get the fight song ready!

[fisherfanatic99]

Been on the road on a business trip but love this conversation
Best players I have seen in the E8:
1. Mark Robinson: too consistent and very talented for a D3 RB
2. Jason Boltus: single handily had to beat teams every week because of the average hartwick team he played on
3. Steve Stepnik: best athlete ansd best football player to play in E8 since I started watching. Only reason he is 3 is because offensive players get more glory in these topics than defensive players
4. Chris Sharpe: his numbers were just outrageous and I witnessed him destroying Fisher one year. The best option qb I have seen.
5. Manzer: (if its who I think it is) its unbelievable and rare to see a college player play both ways, and be a main role on both sides of the ball. To me, that's top 5 material .

Fisher's tops
Qbs
1. Rob Kramer: numbers weren't as high as Bailey, but he won games and going a year with 22 tds and 1 into is impressive . He was the perfect compliment to Robby and reile. 
2. Bailey: numbers alone he was great, but questions of his leadership and lack of making playoffs drop him to this spot. (He performed and it was mostly the defenses fault, but I can't give the number one to someone who didn't play a playoff down )
Rbs:
Nobody compares to Robby or reile. Consistent and talented being the best two running backs in the le;ague while being on the same team. Ryan Kramer and Christian Zemaitis could have been on same level if Kramer stayed at rob and Zemaitis played four years because both are real talented with their legs.
Wrs:
1. Noah farenbach: talked to coach vosburgh once and he said Noah was not the most athletic kids but he an great routes, had great hands, and was a gamer.
2. Jimmy Smith: he could fly and was a play maker.. I loved him because he could block
Defense:
1. Stepnik:  stud
2. Gene Lang: he was everywhere.. undersized but got the job done.  I heard mike fox ( d coordinator now ) was the best linebacker but I never saw him play
Returners:
1. Stepnik: when healthy was easily the best
2. Ryan Francis: I have before he was an unbelievable kick return man

[AUPepBand]

Wow, is it because Pep hasn't seen an AU defense sans Nick Clark in the past four years that AU's top career tackler has not yet been mentioned? Four-year starter...just a stellar competitor and hard hitter. His absence on the 2012 roster severely diminishes Pep's expectations for the coming season.

On Saxon Warriors!

[AlfredSaxon8]

I know I will hear it for sure on this one but Gene Lang was overrated. Fox was legit. Yes, Lang was everywhere but he didnt make a lot of solo tackles. Undersized and with a great drive, he was constantly by the ball but not a player that could change a game like Fox or Brady. A lot of people have already seemed to forget about Clark who broke all of Brentons records.

Brenton did it all and I think defensively was the most dominant player in recent history. Stepnik was also dominant. But theres a simple solution for him, throw to the defender, not the corner. You cant avoid a Mike or Sam backer like Brenton. So based on that, Im going to give it to Brady.

Manzers freakish abilities always suprised me. He was undersized but he performed. But its a toss up between him and Noah. Although AU did shut down Farenbach in 05. Phalen would definitely be thrown into the mix too. When he was at AU, he was my go to receiver. He was damn good. And a lot forget Bork, who broke all AU's records which were then broken by Manzer.

But as far as QB's, no one tops Boltus.  Hartwick was...well... not very good before Boltus. Then they beat Fisher who was top 5 in the nation. They beat Ithaca. They didnt have nor need a defense. The QB from IC in 05, Falcetti (?), was one of the most efficient QBs out there. And as far as game management goes, Keeley was one of the best. I was not impressed with Kramer in any game except for when he beat us at home. That day, he was unstoppable. But with that O-line and backfield, Matt Leinart couldve succeeded.

[Bombers798891]

Man, we should do these things every offseason! Getting some great debate started. Let's throw out some more:

Favorite game/moment that did not involve your team?

Specific team that underachieved the most? (I.E. the "What if team"?) Overachieved?

Most shocking upset in regular conference play?

Most unwatchable game (from a overall quality of play standpoint)

[dlippiel]

Man, we should do these things every offseason! Getting some great debate started. Let's throw out some more:

Favorite game/moment that did not involve your team?

Specific team that underachieved the most? (I.E. the "What if team"?) Overachieved?

Most shocking upset in regular conference play?

Most unwatchable game (from a overall quality of play standpoint)

dlip agrees, there has been some excellent debate on here. Dlip has thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's posts.

Dlip, who is an LL guy, still loves him some E8 football. He would have to say his best E8 games/times would have to be during the 06 season when the Pride of Springfield and SJF faced off twice. The first game, one of dlip's favorites, Chris Sharpe ****ing torched the Cardinals at Fisher, for something like 5 td's and over 200 yards on the ground (somewhere in that ballpark) in a 55-38 win. Sharpe was like a machine that day, unstoppable and running the option like nothing dlip has ever seen. The two teams met again, this time in Massachusett, during the second round of the NCAA's. Dlip watched as The Pride came out and ran all over the place on their first possession only to be somewhat contained for the rest of the game. It was that day dlip gained a ton of respect for Mr. Robinson and the Cardinals of SJF, and rooted for them whole heartedly through their great semi-final run against MUC. SJF defeated Springfield 27-21 ( if he remembers right) during that NCAA game. A game and season dlip will never forget.

Honestly the SJF MUCsemi-final was a pretty darn good E8 moment as well. The Cardinals, even though they lost, made dlip proud to be an east region fan that day.

[Bombers798891]

I know I will hear it for sure on this one but Gene Lang was overrated. Fox was legit. Yes, Lang was everywhere but he didnt make a lot of solo tackles. Undersized and with a great drive, he was constantly by the ball but not a player that could change a game like Fox or Brady. A lot of people have already seemed to forget about Clark who broke all of Brentons records.

Brenton did it all and I think defensively was the most dominant player in recent history. Stepnik was also dominant. But theres a simple solution for him, throw to the defender, not the corner. You cant avoid a Mike or Sam backer like Brenton. So based on that, Im going to give it to Brady.

Lang had more solo tackles than Clark, FWIW. I do think though, that Clark's career was better on balance, as his time as a good/great player was longer than Lang's.

Robert Truman was a great IC linebacker. 44 TFL, 14 sacks from 2001-2003. Couldn't find his 2000 stats. He'd be on my list. Those were some really, really good Bomber defenses.

I agree with your corner point. Especially with some of these offenses (IC 2004 and 2005, any of the Wick's under Boltus, numerous Fisher teams) having one great corner could only do so much because the teams had multiple threats (although the Wick leaned on Phelan a lot more than most teams).

While we're on the subject of corners, Spence White was a great corner too. Not as good a cover corner as Stepnick, but forced an astounding nine fumbles (and recovered five).

But I agree, I think a great LB is more valuable than a great CB.

[Bombers798891]

Man, we should do these things every offseason! Getting some great debate started. Let's throw out some more:

Favorite game/moment that did not involve your team?

Specific team that underachieved the most? (I.E. the "What if team"?) Overachieved?

Most shocking upset in regular conference play?

Most unwatchable game (from a overall quality of play standpoint)

dlip agrees, there has been some excellent debate on here. Dlip has thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's posts.

Dlip, who is an LL guy, still loves him some E8 football. He would have to say his best E8 games/times would have to be during the 06 season when the Pride of Springfield and SJF faced off twice. The first game, one of dlip's favorites, Chris Sharpe ****ing torched the Cardinals at Fisher, for something like 5 td's and over 200 yards on the ground (somewhere in that ballpark) in a 55-38 win. Sharpe was like a machine that day, unstoppable and running the option like nothing dlip has ever seen. The two teams met again, this time in Massachusett, during the second round of the NCAA's. Dlip watched as The Pride came out and ran all over the place on their first possession only to be somewhat contained for the rest of the game. It was that day dlip gained a ton of respect for Mr. Robinson and the Cardinals of SJF, and rooted for them whole heartedly through their great semi-final run against MUC. SJF defeated Springfield 27-21 ( if he remembers right) during that NCAA game. A game and season dlip will never forget.

Honestly the SJF MUCsemi-final was a pretty darn good E8 moment as well. The Cardinals, even though they lost, made dlip proud to be an east region fan that day.

I don't know what it was, but Sharpe rarely did much against IC. I remember in 2006, when he came in after torching Fisher, and I thought IC was toast, but the Bombers just stopped them cold. He never could get past Ithaca..

But in all seriousness, he was really good (So I'm told  )

[dlippiel]

IC had his number for sure, that year, and others as well. If you looked at the numbers dlip would bet that Sharpe struggled the most against IC during his career. Kid probably hated Butterfield . To dlip, Chris was just dynamic within that offense. He seemed to fare better on turf though for the most part. He could occasionally throw an O.K. pass when the db's abd lb's bit on the option fake. Overall though, being as one dimensional as Chris was, dlip does not think he should be considered the top player in E8 history. Looking at his nimbers though, and having seen his incredible athleticism within that offense, to dlip he belongs in the conversation though.

[Bombers798891]

IC had his number for sure, that year, and others as well. If you looked at the numbers dlip would bet that Sharpe struggled the most against IC during his career. Kid probably hated Butterfield . To dlip, Chris was just dynamic within that offense. He seemed to fare better on turf though for the most part. He could occasionally throw an O.K. pass when the db's abd lb's bit on the option fake. Overall though, being as one dimensional as Chris was, dlip does not think he should be considered the top player in E8 history. Looking at his nimbers though, and having seen his incredible athleticism within that offense, to dlip he belongs in the conversation though.

Here's my question: Where do we put Sharpe in the E8 when it comes to all-conference players? I'm not anti-option (I'm an Ithaca fan old enough to remember the Bombers running the veer) but to me, there's a real disconnect between calling Chris Sharpe a quarterback and saying he's a great player (undeniably true) who happens to receive the snap from the center, which we've defined as a quarterback.

A football player who competes 15 passes and runs 261 times for 1,941 yards and 35 touchdowns in a season (Sharpe's 2006 numbers, I believe) is not playing as a quarterback. He's occasionally assuming the quarterback role, just like a running back assumes the role of a receiver. But we look at a RB's receiving numbers as an extension of his ability as a player, and a branching out of his traditional role in an offense, not as evidence that he's a wide receiver. I think guys like Sharpe should be viewed the same. Their passing numbers should be taken as a small part of their overall game, not something we use to call them a QB.

(None of this, by the way, is meant to imply that running the option is *easy,* so don't take that as such. Additionally, I know the QB position has evolved over time, and once upon a time, way back when, quarterbacks didn't throw that often—or well. But that's no longer the case)

[AlfredSaxon8]

IC had his number for sure, that year, and others as well. If you looked at the numbers dlip would bet that Sharpe struggled the most against IC during his career. Kid probably hated Butterfield . To dlip, Chris was just dynamic within that offense. He seemed to fare better on turf though for the most part. He could occasionally throw an O.K. pass when the db's abd lb's bit on the option fake. Overall though, being as one dimensional as Chris was, dlip does not think he should be considered the top player in E8 history. Looking at his nimbers though, and having seen his incredible athleticism within that offense, to dlip he belongs in the conversation though.

Not trying to take away anything from Sharpe, he was sensational, but that fullback he had was a monster. Between the two of them, they were guaranteed 4 yards a pop. That always make it an attainable 3rd down situation. I remember hearing about that game at the airport after the Husson game. We couldnt believe it. He was incredible.

I have a couple favorite games...

Obviously the 13-7 win over Fisher. But also the comeback and OT victory vs Rochester in the ECAC game. The OT win over Fisher in 08. And believe it or not, the loss to IC in 05. It was the "satERday" game and my first experience at Butterfield. That was a crazy atmosphere. And then beating IC the following year at home.

[AlfredSaxon8]

IC had his number for sure, that year, and others as well. If you looked at the numbers dlip would bet that Sharpe struggled the most against IC during his career. Kid probably hated Butterfield . To dlip, Chris was just dynamic within that offense. He seemed to fare better on turf though for the most part. He could occasionally throw an O.K. pass when the db's abd lb's bit on the option fake. Overall though, being as one dimensional as Chris was, dlip does not think he should be considered the top player in E8 history. Looking at his nimbers though, and having seen his incredible athleticism within that offense, to dlip he belongs in the conversation though.

Here's my question: Where do we put Sharpe in the E8 when it comes to all-conference players? I'm not anti-option (I'm an Ithaca fan old enough to remember the Bombers running the veer) but to me, there's a real disconnect between calling Chris Sharpe a quarterback and saying he's a great player (undeniably true) who happens to receive the snap from the center, which we've defined as a quarterback.

A football player who competes 15 passes and runs 261 times for 1,941 yards and 35 touchdowns in a season (Sharpe's 2006 numbers, I believe) is not playing as a quarterback. He's occasionally assuming the quarterback role, just like a running back assumes the role of a receiver. But we look at a RB's receiving numbers as an extension of his ability as a player, and a branching out of his traditional role in an offense, not as evidence that he's a wide receiver. I think guys like Sharpe should be viewed the same. Their passing numbers should be taken as a small part of their overall game, not something we use to call them a QB.

(None of this, by the way, is meant to imply that running the option is *easy,* so don't take that as such. Additionally, I know the QB position has evolved over time, and once upon a time, way back when, quarterbacks didn't throw that often—or well. But that's no longer the case)

I hate the option. Probably cause my high school coaches wouldnt let me run it. Although I did love watching Chance Harriage and the old Air Force option teams. Anyways, the problem is that it would make the most sense to put him as a running back. He ran the ball sometimes 20 carries a game. The only problem with that though is he also HAD the option to pass. That kept a lot of defenses on their heels. Thats not something Hendrix, Robinson, Reile, or Baez had to their advantage. If they were given the ball on a 3rd and 2, they were probably barely getting 2 because of 10 guys in the box. Whereas Sharpe, you still had to some double reverse pass trick play.

I think its most fitting for him to be with the RB's but option QB's and spread offenses such a Michigan and Robinson, have a huge advantage over traditional backs.

[Bombers798891]

IC had his number for sure, that year, and others as well. If you looked at the numbers dlip would bet that Sharpe struggled the most against IC during his career. Kid probably hated Butterfield . To dlip, Chris was just dynamic within that offense. He seemed to fare better on turf though for the most part. He could occasionally throw an O.K. pass when the db's abd lb's bit on the option fake. Overall though, being as one dimensional as Chris was, dlip does not think he should be considered the top player in E8 history. Looking at his nimbers though, and having seen his incredible athleticism within that offense, to dlip he belongs in the conversation though.

Here's my question: Where do we put Sharpe in the E8 when it comes to all-conference players? I'm not anti-option (I'm an Ithaca fan old enough to remember the Bombers running the veer) but to me, there's a real disconnect between calling Chris Sharpe a quarterback and saying he's a great player (undeniably true) who happens to receive the snap from the center, which we've defined as a quarterback.

A football player who competes 15 passes and runs 261 times for 1,941 yards and 35 touchdowns in a season (Sharpe's 2006 numbers, I believe) is not playing as a quarterback. He's occasionally assuming the quarterback role, just like a running back assumes the role of a receiver. But we look at a RB's receiving numbers as an extension of his ability as a player, and a branching out of his traditional role in an offense, not as evidence that he's a wide receiver. I think guys like Sharpe should be viewed the same. Their passing numbers should be taken as a small part of their overall game, not something we use to call them a QB.

(None of this, by the way, is meant to imply that running the option is *easy,* so don't take that as such. Additionally, I know the QB position has evolved over time, and once upon a time, way back when, quarterbacks didn't throw that often—or well. But that's no longer the case)

I hate the option. Probably cause my high school coaches wouldnt let me run it. Although I did love watching Chance Harriage and the old Air Force option teams. Anyways, the problem is that it would make the most sense to put him as a running back. He ran the ball sometimes 20 carries a game. The only problem with that though is he also HAD the option to pass. That kept a lot of defenses on their heels. Thats not something Hendrix, Robinson, Reile, or Baez had to their advantage. If they were given the ball on a 3rd and 2, they were probably barely getting 2 because of 10 guys in the box. Whereas Sharpe, you still had to some double reverse pass trick play.

I think its most fitting for him to be with the RB's but option QB's and spread offenses such a Michigan and Robinson, have a huge advantage over traditional backs.

I agree there. Nearly impossible to put him in the right spot. I think, forced to pick, I'd go RB, just because at least we're looking at the same stats, even if they came about differently.

My three favorite games: IC-Fisher 2005 (Struzzi!) IC-Wick 2002 (Welcome to the world, Josh Felicetti) IC-Springfield 2006 (Only because I was tired of hearing how good Sharpe was at that point. I really wish someone had done a headline like: Sharpe dulled by Bombers)

[sjfcards]

Been on the road on a business trip but love this conversation
Best players I have seen in the E8:
1. Mark Robinson: too consistent and very talented for a D3 RB
2. Jason Boltus: single handily had to beat teams every week because of the average hartwick team he played on
3. Steve Stepnik: best athlete ansd best football player to play in E8 since I started watching. Only reason he is 3 is because offensive players get more glory in these topics than defensive players
4. Chris Sharpe: his numbers were just outrageous and I witnessed him destroying Fisher one year. The best option qb I have seen.
5. Manzer: (if its who I think it is) its unbelievable and rare to see a college player play both ways, and be a main role on both sides of the ball. To me, that's top 5 material .

Fisher's tops
Qbs
1. Rob Kramer: numbers weren't as high as Bailey, but he won games and going a year with 22 tds and 1 into is impressive . He was the perfect compliment to Robby and reile. 
2. Bailey: numbers alone he was great, but questions of his leadership and lack of making playoffs drop him to this spot. (He performed and it was mostly the defenses fault, but I can't give the number one to someone who didn't play a playoff down )
Rbs:
Nobody compares to Robby or reile. Consistent and talented being the best two running backs in the le;ague while being on the same team. Ryan Kramer and Christian Zemaitis could have been on same level if Kramer stayed at rob and Zemaitis played four years because both are real talented with their legs.
Wrs:
1. Noah farenbach: talked to coach vosburgh once and he said Noah was not the most athletic kids but he an great routes, had great hands, and was a gamer.
2. Jimmy Smith: he could fly and was a play maker.. I loved him because he could block
Defense:
1. Stepnik:  stud
2. Gene Lang: he was everywhere.. undersized but got the job done.  I heard mike fox ( d coordinator now ) was the best linebacker but I never saw him play
Returners:
1. Stepnik: when healthy was easily the best
2. Ryan Francis: I have before he was an unbelievable kick return man

As far as RBs go I think you are missing Jason Myers. That kid was a stud, and didn't have the benefit of the type of teams Robby and Reile played on. Don't know if he was in Robby's class, but I would put him with Reile.

[sjfcards]

Man, we should do these things every offseason! Getting some great debate started. Let's throw out some more:

Favorite game/moment that did not involve your team?

Specific team that underachieved the most? (I.E. the "What if team"?) Overachieved?

Most shocking upset in regular conference play?

Most unwatchable game (from a overall quality of play standpoint)

So much to like here...

Best game not involving Fisher. The SU/Keane game in th playoffs last year was pretty good. (although not much will ever beat the Hail Katherine game for me)

Underachieving team for me was the Fisher team from 2 years ago. So much talent and really seemed to run out of gas the last three weeks.

Upset...Norwich over Fisher in 2005.

Worst game...70-0 was brutal. Just not what AU typically gives you.