FB: Empire 8

[sjfcards]

ok, but now we you are getting into the third quarter of games?  I mean at some point, what is a football game if you cannot play past a certain score or quarter?  Think about guys who are playing in their Senior season and do not have the liklihood of making the playoffs....games are numbered and precious.  Playing time is precious for these kids....I remember.  When I played my last game senior year against Thiel, I actually remember thinking at the half when we were up 33-14 (or something like that) 'man I hope we dont completely blow these guys out in the third and Coach Vos pulls all us starters'  It was my last game, and I wanted to play, not to embarass Theil...

Is Utica going playoffs?  Prob not, but certainly if it comes down to it, some flashy scores could certainly carry the day.

In some sense I find it hard to believe we are even having a discussion about a team that regularly finishes below .500 running up the score....

Yup. Third quarter. And even earlier in some cases. The first IC/Utica game ever played, I don't think Brian Young (A senior FWIW) played after the first quarter. It was 35-0 at the time.

I understand your point about wanting to play, (well, as much as a non-athlete can) and I don't think the players want to embarrass anyone. But, in certain matchups, you either pull up or win by 100 points. Who really benefits in that situation? Specifically, the Union/Utica game isn't on that level. Jonny's point about following what the losing team is doing is interesting however. I think it's almost like a mutual de-escalation.

Did you catch where Florida State and Savannah went to a running clock in the third quarter? I don't think that was entirely weather-related

a certain player may come out early in a blow-out game for injury saving reasons though, like a young QB.  Again, kinda goes to my point of a game by game, team by team analysis, rather than just blanketly calling out a coaching staff of a team that isnt a winning program for running up the score on a traditional 'player' in the East.  Boy I remember when SJF got a crack to blow out Cortland in ECAC game a few years back.  The last time the teams met (1991), the score ended up in Sports Illustrated due to Cortland winning 71-0.  If SJF had been able to keep up the assault they were laying on Cortland early in the third of that game, you wouldnt heard me 'crying' for mercy...as it was, Cortland was able to get some late scores and make it look much closer.  But could an up and coming Fisher program with no winning tradition really be faulted for stepping on the throats of Cortland a pretty storied and powerful program?  I do agree their is a point where if its like 45-0 with a minute to go and you are on the goal-line, you take a knee, but to just stop throwing the ball and things like that sometime late in the 3rd of a 30pt game, does no-one any good.  Does that help the 3rd stringers of the losing team?  No, trust me those guys want to play defense too....its their only crack at the field and they dont just wanna see scrub plays, they see that all week in practice...

Some of this has to do with the type of offense you run as well. Utica is a pass happy offense with Benkwitt at the helm, and they have to run what is in their playbook. I am sure they could mix in more run than pass, but you want to work on things at game speed that you may need later on. You can do that with a backup as well, but that still forces Utica to throw the ball a bunch.

Having said that I don't like when teams run up the score at all. I typically think the game decides when is appropriate to step off the gas pedal, but each person has a different feeling about what is and is not appropriate. What bothers me is when teams do things out of their normal when they are way up. A fake field goal, or a running team throwing down field comes to mind.

[Bombers798891]

ok, but now we you are getting into the third quarter of games?  I mean at some point, what is a football game if you cannot play past a certain score or quarter?  Think about guys who are playing in their Senior season and do not have the liklihood of making the playoffs....games are numbered and precious.  Playing time is precious for these kids....I remember.  When I played my last game senior year against Thiel, I actually remember thinking at the half when we were up 33-14 (or something like that) 'man I hope we dont completely blow these guys out in the third and Coach Vos pulls all us starters'  It was my last game, and I wanted to play, not to embarass Theil...

Is Utica going playoffs?  Prob not, but certainly if it comes down to it, some flashy scores could certainly carry the day.

In some sense I find it hard to believe we are even having a discussion about a team that regularly finishes below .500 running up the score....

Yup. Third quarter. And even earlier in some cases. The first IC/Utica game ever played, I don't think Brian Young (A senior FWIW) played after the first quarter. It was 35-0 at the time.

I understand your point about wanting to play, (well, as much as a non-athlete can) and I don't think the players want to embarrass anyone. But, in certain matchups, you either pull up or win by 100 points. Who really benefits in that situation? Specifically, the Union/Utica game isn't on that level. Jonny's point about following what the losing team is doing is interesting however. I think it's almost like a mutual de-escalation.

Did you catch where Florida State and Savannah went to a running clock in the third quarter? I don't think that was entirely weather-related

a certain player may come out early in a blow-out game for injury saving reasons though, like a young QB.  Again, kinda goes to my point of a game by game, team by team analysis, rather than just blanketly calling out a coaching staff of a team that isnt a winning program for running up the score on a traditional 'player' in the East.  Boy I remember when SJF got a crack to blow out Cortland in ECAC game a few years back.  The last time the teams met (1991), the score ended up in Sports Illustrated due to Cortland winning 71-0.  If SJF had been able to keep up the assault they were laying on Cortland early in the third of that game, you wouldnt heard me 'crying' for mercy...as it was, Cortland was able to get some late scores and make it look much closer.  But could an up and coming Fisher program with no winning tradition really be faulted for stepping on the throats of Cortland a pretty storied and powerful program?  I do agree their is a point where if its like 45-0 with a minute to go and you are on the goal-line, you take a knee, but to just stop throwing the ball and things like that sometime late in the 3rd of a 30pt game, does no-one any good.  Does that help the 3rd stringers of the losing team?  No, trust me those guys want to play defense too....its their only crack at the field and they dont just wanna see scrub plays, they see that all week in practice...

My "calling out" of Utica wasn't just based on this game however. As I've repeatedly stated, every team has been guilty of this infraction at one point or another. And yes, some teams have done it to Utica

I just believe Utica's done this more frequently than other teams, and not just to the storied programs. They've done it twice to Becker, perennially one of the worst teams in all of D-III. (Although at least in 2010, they let the backup QB throw a touchdown pass clinging to a 58-13 4th quarter lead) Heck, even earlier this year, Utica was playing at home, with a narrow 40-7 lead in the 4th quarter against St. Lawrence, and in their first possession of the 4th quarter they ran a six-play drive that had five passes by Benkwitt.

I don't think Utica's aiming to embarrass other teams in this. Rather, I think they're trying to send statements through their scores and passing's a way to do that. And there's some truth to the matter that we do stick our heads up and say "Woah, Utica hung 78 points on someone?" So if your goal is to create buzz, there you have it.

I'm not trying to be a Utica hater. If Ithaca ever gets a 30 or 40 point lead on someone again, and keeps in their starting QB or keeps chucking it around, I'll bring it up. In fact, I'll do one retroactively. Grastorf threw a TD pass to put Ithaca up 45-0 against St. Lawrence in 2009. Probably should have brought in Hendel to mop up in that one.

[drt]

I guess I'd like to think of it as a natural progresssion of Utica's improvement as a program.
Early season beatdowns of hapless programs (Becker et al.) to early season 4th-quarter comeback wins (Union '11)
to a road win beat-down of a respected program. 
Maybe some of us are reading too much into one game, but quality, solid road wins are something Utica has been lacking.
I know Blaise et al have this team believing in itself.  And I think he is just seeking respectability. 
Saterday will answer many of the questions, or more likely provide a whole lot more board fodder for weeks to come.
Either way, nice to see some Utica buzz on the board

[Frank Rossi]

That's my opinion anyway.  Did Union keep their starters in the 4th?

They swapped QBs about midway through, and they already had their #1 and #2 receivers knocked out due to injuries (and O-Line injury problems).  So, it's tough to judge that question.  As for defense, I believe they did rotate to at least some second-teamers by the middle of the 4th.

[dewcrew88]

To dlip, Utica's offensive output could have been doubled if they didn't take their foot off the gas.

I'd disagree with this part.  When up by 45-17 late in the 4th, all first-team offense remained in the game for Utica.  There were some odd calls being made coaching-wise on that sideline all night that still confound me, including a re-kick after an out-of-bounds kickoff that exited the boundary at the 2 (that automatically would have gone to the 40 -- and the rekick led to a lost fumble to Union).  Accepting a 5-yard penalty on an incomplete 1st and 10 pass when the opponent is in obvious 4-down territory (1st and 15 instead of 2nd and 10 around the Utica 35) was yet another, "Huh?" moment.

Anyway, there was no reason for the first-team offense to be in the game past the first drive of the 4th quarter, with Utica up by 25.  They have an excellent team (it might have been good to give some experience to the second teamers while they had a chance to do so), and Union never has embarrassed Utica like other teams had to warrant some sort of "message."  Maybe the mouthing off before the Union/SJF playoff game in 2006 somehow made Blaise a Union-hater -- but it doesn't warrant risking your top players to injury unnecessarily, especially in Week 2.

Frank, not sure how much time you mean by "past 1st drive of 4th" and there is a differnce between being up by 25 and being up 45-17, but SJF was up by 4 tds against UR a few years  ago AT HOME in the 4th and the game literally came down to the UR QB simply under-handing a toss into a wide open receiver's arms in the endzone for a game tying 2pt conversion with seconds left and he somehow underthrew it and it bounced and SJF luckily survived, so who's to say when a lead is safe at this level....

I think I focused on the first-team offense in my post more than the defense.  However, there's a time to pull players on both sides of the ball.  Also, the UR/SJF game (Courage Bowl rivalry game) occurred before the timing rules changed.  It's not as likely now for even that anomaly.

Fisher was up by three possessions in that game, not four. That's a major difference, more so than the clock rules (although that helps too.

Regardless, I'd also say that "Worst-Case scenario" anecdotes rarely make for good general policy. I understand the concept that coaches live by a different set of rules, and that one "worst-case" scenario can be their undoing. But I think coaches still wait too long to ease up

yes, you are correct, they were up 22 with 10:33 to go and by :48 to go it was all but tied, save the errant pass to the wide open receiver.  UR scored 20 unanswered in less than 10 minutes?  So could they, would they have scored 28 unanswered in another 3 minutes?  Certainly looks like it?  If it can happen, you must coach against it, lest it will happen to you.  This isnt the playground or the Pinewood Derby.  There is a time to call off the dogs and rest the starters, its called Sunday....

Simply because this isn't the pinewood derby or the playground is no reason not to show your opponents' respect. I remember the first time Ithaca played Utica. It was 35-0 in the first quarter, and only then because IC had a punt return TD called back. Ithaca could have won that game by 125 points had they felt like it, and that's not hyperbole. According to the recap of the game by the Ithacan, Ithaca emptied its entire bench. Starting quarterback Brian Young threw, according to the Syracuse paper, five passes the entire game. (I thought it was eight, but I'll trust the paper to my memory)

Had Ithaca subscribed to your "Let up on Sunday" theory, that game would have been a mockery. How many games would Mount win by 100 points if it didn't empty its bench and call off the dogs? There's a reason you see them winning games 52-0, 62-0, 48-3 and going scoreless in the 4th quarter.

I was on that team. It ended 66-0 and your punt returner set a bunch of records that day. Easily could have been 84 or more.

[sjfcards]

Any injuries for Fisher that will keep key guys out this weekend? The depth chart on the game notes looks pretty similar to the previous week.

Courage Bowl is always a good time. Anyone making the trip to the game?

[fisheralum91]

No Idea cards- but id love to know the health of the punter...
Special teams is going to kill Fisher this year

[sjfcards]

No Idea cards- but id love to know the health of the punter...
Special teams is going to kill Fisher this year

You said it. Fisher has not had a field goal attempt yet that I can remember. Not sure how that is going to go when the time comes, but with no punter, and a true Freshman kicker (I know his first college attempt is going to be with 3 seconds left to win the game), that could be a sore spot for the Cards.

[Ethelred the Unready]

No Idea cards- but id love to know the health of the punter...
Special teams is going to kill Fisher this year

You said it. Fisher has not had a field goal attempt yet that I can remember. Not sure how that is going to go when the time comes, but with no punter, and a true Freshman kicker (I know his first college attempt is going to be with 3 seconds left to win the game), that could be a sore spot for the Cards.

Hopefully he doesn't go through what the Penn St kicker went through last week.  Hard to watch a kid miss 4 field goals, including the game winner.

[SUADC]

I know there are plenty of top games within the east region this upcoming weekend. But, any thoughts on how Frostburg State is going to fair against Case? I think Frostburg wins a close game against them at Case and the only reason I think that it'll be close, is due to Case playing its first home game of the season and Frostburg playing against the name 'Case'.

I think Case prides itself against playin mediocere/inferior teams. However, I think Frostburg is going to surprise them...the only shock I may have at the end of this game is Frostburg losing.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I know there are plenty of top games within the east region this upcoming weekend. But, any thoughts on how Frostburg State is going to fair against Case? I think Frostburg wins a close game against them at Case and the only reason I think that it'll be close, is due to Case playing its first home game of the season and Frostburg playing against the name 'Case'.

I think Case prides itself against playin mediocere/inferior teams. However, I think Frostburg is going to surprise them...the only shock I may have at the end of this game is Frostburg losing.

I'm going to step up and defend my fellow UAA program here, because I think you're underrating Case Western a bit.

It's true that CWRU's nonconference schedule is less than stellar, but that's largely due to the UAA's scheduling agreement with the NCAC.  Generally, the UAA has shown well in nonconference play over the last several seasons, although CWRU's loss to Rochester last year still baffles me.  Last year the UAA was a collective 19-10 in nonconference games, every team posted a winning nonconference record (all went 4-3 or better), and the conference posted wins aqainst teams that finished in the top half of the OAC (Case over John Carroll) and CCIW (Chicago over Elmhurst).  In 2010, again all four teams posted a winning nonconference record, highlighted by Wash-U beating traditional NCAC kingpin Wabash.

Point of all that diatribe: the UAA isn't the strongest league around, but the four teams in it are reasonably strong and have shown well in nonconference play.  Naturally, we all pull for our own conference, so I'd be surprised if Frostburg beat Case.

[MrCardinal]

Any injuries for Fisher that will keep key guys out this weekend? The depth chart on the game notes looks pretty similar to the previous week.

Courage Bowl is always a good time. Anyone making the trip to the game?

Suite (Punter, WR) broke is finger in practice last week and I believe had surgery that will keep him out for the time being.

Cody Foster (DE) who was first DL rotating in for pass rushing went down last game with a knee injury and I have heard it was an ACL thing so I don't expect him back anytime soon.

Nathan Nigolian (WR) also went down with a knee injury last game and looks to be out at least a few weeks.


A few others are banged up but nothing serious that will hold them out.  Hopefully UR and Hartwick games go as planned and some of the starters can rest up so they can take full advantage of that Bye Week before the Seagulls come to Growney the first weekend of October

[sjfcards]

Any injuries for Fisher that will keep key guys out this weekend? The depth chart on the game notes looks pretty similar to the previous week.

Courage Bowl is always a good time. Anyone making the trip to the game?

Suite (Punter, WR) broke is finger in practice last week and I believe had surgery that will keep him out for the time being.

Cody Foster (DE) who was first DL rotating in for pass rushing went down last game with a knee injury and I have heard it was an ACL thing so I don't expect him back anytime soon.

Nathan Nigolian (WR) also went down with a knee injury last game and looks to be out at least a few weeks.


A few others are banged up but nothing serious that will hold them out.  Hopefully UR and Hartwick games go as planned and some of the starters can rest up so they can take full advantage of that Bye Week before the Seagulls come to Growney the first weekend of October

Thanks! Not sure how deep Fisher is at WR so the Nigolian injury hurts a bit.

[Bombers798891]

Ithaca 17, Union 13. Bombers start 2-0

On a related note, is Frostburg now contractually required to play one game a year where both teams score 50 points?

[Jonny Utah]

Since I couldn't find any writeup on the Ithaca page (maybe they don't do it anymore?), here is a decent preview from the Union webpage.

http://www.unionathletics.com/documents/2012/9/12/Game_3_Notes_2012.pdf?id=2442