FB: Empire 8

[mattvsmith]

New top 25 is out....Fisher despite beating C-State drops a spot to 19.
Thoughts?

Pat Coleman told me a couple weeks ago how this happens. I'll have to go back and look it up. It's something about how the voting-points add up. SJF may have gotten the same or even more points than last week, but another team may have increased their points even more, and thus get cranked higher. I'll let the Guru explain it himself. I'm sure I've messed up something. Anyway, his explanation made sense to me.

[ExTartanPlayer]

They got leaped by wabash who beat allegany 63-0

Allegany has 2 TDs on season...I guess voters thought that allegany is better than Cortland?

This is just the laziest logic ever. No, the voters don't think Allegheny is better than Cortland. They do, however, find a 60-point monkeystomping (Wabash called off the dogs, too, they coulda scored 100) more impressive than an 8-point win over Cortland.  It's not JUST about the quality of competition or JUST the margin of victory - both aspects count.  Also, it's not just about the past week's result, but evaluating a team's body of work against another's body of work. It's dumb to reduce it to "I guess they think Allegheny is better than Cortland." 

[SJFF82]

They got leaped by wabash who beat allegany 63-0

Allegany has 2 TDs on season...I guess voters thought that allegany is better than Cortland?

This is just the laziest logic ever. No, the voters don't think Allegheny is better than Cortland. They do, however, find a 60-point monkeystomping (Wabash called off the dogs, too, they coulda scored 100) more impressive than an 8-point win over Cortland.  It's not JUST about the quality of competition or JUST the margin of victory - both aspects count.  Also, it's not just about the past week's result, but evaluating a team's body of work against another's body of work. It's dumb to reduce it to "I guess they think Allegheny is better than Cortland."

Oh ok....guess I'm stupid.  Body of work?  They vote top 25 every week.  Fisher was 2 spots ahead coming in this week. So clearly this game is the difference maker. And you missed my point....of course I don't really think the voters think allegany is better than cortland....but then how do you explain the voting shift?

[ExTartanPlayer]

They got leaped by wabash who beat allegany 63-0

Allegany has 2 TDs on season...I guess voters thought that allegany is better than Cortland?

This is just the laziest logic ever. No, the voters don't think Allegheny is better than Cortland. They do, however, find a 60-point monkeystomping (Wabash called off the dogs, too, they coulda scored 100) more impressive than an 8-point win over Cortland.  It's not JUST about the quality of competition or JUST the margin of victory - both aspects count.  Also, it's not just about the past week's result, but evaluating a team's body of work against another's body of work. It's dumb to reduce it to "I guess they think Allegheny is better than Cortland."

Oh ok....guess I'm stupid.  Body of work?  They vote top 25 every week.  Fisher was 2 spots ahead coming in this week. So clearly this game is the difference maker. And you missed my point....of course I don't really think the voters think allegany is better than cortland....but then how do you explain the voting shift?

The voters may have judged a 60-point demolition of a hapless team to be more impressive than an 8-point win over a quality opponent. Like I said: you're too focused on the one piece if the equation, the fact that SJF played a quality opponent while Wabash played a crummy one, but that's not the ONLY piece of the puzzle. The voters have to make a judgement call to figure out which is more impressive to them. Not saying I feel strongly one way or the other, just explaining the logic. Using your current logic, Mount Union shouldn't have picked up any first place votes this week because they played a winless Marietta team. They did.

And on the body of work comment, Keith, Pat and several others (division 1 writers as well) have made similar comments before. Each week is a chance to re-evaluate the entire season to date. Results don't happen in a vacuum.

[sjfcards]

They got leaped by wabash who beat allegany 63-0

Allegany has 2 TDs on season...I guess voters thought that allegany is better than Cortland?

This is just the laziest logic ever. No, the voters don't think Allegheny is better than Cortland. They do, however, find a 60-point monkeystomping (Wabash called off the dogs, too, they coulda scored 100) more impressive than an 8-point win over Cortland.  It's not JUST about the quality of competition or JUST the margin of victory - both aspects count.  Also, it's not just about the past week's result, but evaluating a team's body of work against another's body of work. It's dumb to reduce it to "I guess they think Allegheny is better than Cortland."

Oh ok....guess I'm stupid.  Body of work?  They vote top 25 every week.  Fisher was 2 spots ahead coming in this week. So clearly this game is the difference maker. And you missed my point....of course I don't really think the voters think allegany is better than cortland....but then how do you explain the voting shift?

I hate when this stuff happens as much as anyone, but the good news is that it really does not matter. Fisher could not receive votes all year, and if they win all their games they will have a chance to play for a title. I was at the game yesterday, and I am not surprised that they dropped, but the discussion shows how flawed rankings can be at times. One could look at the game yesterday and say "Fisher turned the ball over 5 times, obviously doesn't have a kicker (2 missed PAT's), and took a lot of penalties...they must not be all that good." The same person could look at the game and say "Fisher made a ton of mistakes and were still beat a pretty good program." It is all in how you look at it.

It is hard as a Fisher fan to see our team drop, but voters have to look at all teams/games and do the best with what they see and what they think is important. At least we are not BCS schools where those little decisions by voters decide who plays for a title and who doesn't.

[D3viewer]

Slightly off topic..off conference. What ever happened to Allegheny ? They used to be powerhouse when Ken O'Keefe was HC there in the 1990's. Now Ken is in the NFL and left Allegheny to whither and die. Thay have/had great tradition. Didn't they play Ithaca for the national title one time ? 1990 ? Even in the late 90's they were awesome.

[SJFF82]

Speaking of body of work....SJF has wins over Wash and Jeff, Otterbein and CORT St. Wabash over Hanover....Dennison and Allegany

[ExTartanPlayer]

Wabash has annihilated all three of their lackluster opponents. You can only be judged on the teams you actually play. Denison is an okay team, although not at the level of SJF's best opponents. But just because you're playing/beating better teams doesn't mean you've been more impressive. You beat better teams; they have thoroughly dismantled their lesser opponents. It's up to any voter to decide which they find more impressive.

[Pat Coleman]

Wabash has annihilated all three of their lackluster opponents. You can only be judged on the teams you actually play. Denison is an okay team, although not at the level of SJF's best opponents. But just because you're playing/beating better teams doesn't mean you've been more impressive. You beat better teams; they have thoroughly dismantled their lesser opponents. It's up to any voter to decide which they find more impressive.

ALSO, there was some question about Wabash after their starting running back tore his ACL last week, so the voters may have held back on them last week in a wait-and-see position. Saturday's game could certainly convince voters that it wasn't necessary to hold back any longer.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Slightly off topic..off conference. What ever happened to Allegheny ? They used to be powerhouse when Ken O'Keefe was HC there in the 1990's. Now Ken is in the NFL and left Allegheny to whither and die. Thay have/had great tradition. Didn't they play Ithaca for the national title one time ? 1990 ? Even in the late 90's they were awesome.

They're wondering the same thing over on the NCAC board.  Just last year, Allegheny upset Wabash; this year they seem to be among the very dregs of d3.  No one has come up with a reason why.

[Cardinal Pride]

I would think that a team that schedules a difficult nonconference schedule would get the nod over a team that schedules 3 weak teams they are expected to throttle.  Fisher at least scheduled the possibility of being beaten.  It really doesnt matter, like I have seen written on here before, "the only poll that matters is the final poll".

[Pat Coleman]

Except Wabash scheduled one of them, of course, not three.

I would think that a team that schedules a difficult nonconference schedule would get the nod over a team that schedules 3 weak teams they are expected to throttle.

Fisher's non-conference schedule is pretty good, yes. Otterbein will be a middle-of-the-pack OAC team, W&J will be in the top three in a conference that is not very good and Cortland lost a lot of players from last year but could be pretty good.

[msarge7]

 I watched the first half of the AU-Brockport game and gave up at half.  I just read the final score about 5 minutes ago and couldn't believe it!!  WOW!!  I'm planning on traveling to the Hartwick game at home.  Hope to see you there Pep. 

[boobyhasgameyo]

Except Wabash scheduled one of them, of course, not three.

I would think that a team that schedules a difficult nonconference schedule would get the nod over a team that schedules 3 weak teams they are expected to throttle.

Fisher's non-conference schedule is pretty good, yes. Otterbein will be a middle-of-the-pack OAC team, W&J will be in the top three in a conference that is not very good and Cortland lost a lot of players from last year but could be pretty good.

I think the scheduling was a bit more aggressive than what you giving them credit for.  Unless you think we had the foresight to know Otterbein was a one year wonder?  W&J will likely be the top team in their conference.  No worse than second if they lose to Thomas More.  That would put them at the level of a Johns Hopkins in my mind.  Decent team in a crappy conference.  Who knows how Cortland will perform in the NJAC.  Probably pretty favorably as that conference seems pretty down this year.  I suppose the question for me is if Fisher scheduled Husson, Becker, and then played a team like Frostburg State - would you be more impressed with them to date?  Pretty sure Fisher would run a train on them in a similar fashion to what Wabash has done. 

[Pat Coleman]

The point isn't the perception of the schedule, it's the actual schedule. It doesn't matter what the opponent's quality was when the deal was signed, but what the quality was when the game was played.

I think the scheduling was a bit more aggressive than what you giving them credit for.  Unless you think we had the foresight to know Otterbein was a one year wonder?  ...

Not sure what to make of W&J but they haven't won a playoff game since 2008 and while you might try to compare them favorably to Johns Hopkins, they didn't compare favorably on the field last November.