FB: Empire 8

[AUKaz00]

I think your bigger issue is that even if the committee takes an 8-2 team over these guys, it'll be whichever MIAC team ends up highest on the West board.  SJU would have a strong argument if they were to upset Bethel this week.  If that doesn't happen, I think St. Thomas will probably get in.

If by chance they were to discuss an 8-2 team, which I don't think it has a chance in hell of happening

XTP (along with others) have done a great job of covering the Pool C angle over on the General Boards and I agree that I think it a long shot for an 8-2 team to make the field, though it has happened before at the expense of 1-loss teams.  I guess what my question relates to isn't that an East team "deserves" that honor, but rather that in all likelihood the winner of the Courage Bowl will be the top East team for each round of the Pool C discussion.  It isn't a matter of "if" they'd be discussed, but rather whether they have any legs when discussed.  Will the selection committee choose 5 candidates from the North and West or upon getting to that fifth pick do they give a nod to one of the other regions?  Perhaps that helps Thomas More instead of the E8, but if two teams are on the board for all 5 votes I think there might be some exhaustion by the committee that leans away from the North/West on that final vote.

[Upstate]

If AU wins I don't think the numbers put them in the discussion...

If Fisher wins they might get a mention for the final Pool C because of their numbers...

I also don't think the number of at large bids per region is discussed, if a West team has better numbers and gets passed over just to give the East (or any other region) a bid it would be a huge disservice to the selection process...

[AUKaz00]

If AU wins I don't think the numbers put them in the discussion...

If Fisher wins they might get a mention for the final Pool C because of their numbers...

I also don't think the number of at large bids per region is discussed, if a West team has better numbers and gets passed over just to give the East (or any other region) a bid it would be a huge disservice to the selection process...

I agree that there likely isn't any overt discussion about bids per region, however we're talking about human nature here.  If for four rounds the East and South representatives continue to make their cases for Thomas More and the Courage Bowl winner, then their arguments may carry more weight the fifth time they're made against the new top teams from the North and West.  These administrators/coaches need to be able to look each other in the face, but also their regional constituents afterward and I wouldn't be surprised if a bone was thrown on that final selection.  Now, would that favor a 1-loss Thomas More with a lower SoS or a 2-loss E8 school with a higher SoS?

[boobyhasgameyo]

If AU wins I don't think the numbers put them in the discussion...

If Fisher wins they might get a mention for the final Pool C because of their numbers...

I also don't think the number of at large bids per region is discussed, if a West team has better numbers and gets passed over just to give the East (or any other region) a bid it would be a huge disservice to the selection process...

I agree that there likely isn't any overt discussion about bids per region, however we're talking about human nature here.  If for four rounds the East and South representatives continue to make their cases for Thomas More and the Courage Bowl winner, then their arguments may carry more weight the fifth time they're made against the new top teams from the North and West.  These administrators/coaches need to be able to look each other in the face, but also their regional constituents afterward and I wouldn't be surprised if a bone was thrown on that final selection.  Now, would that favor a 1-loss Thomas More with a lower SoS or a 2-loss E8 school with a higher SoS?

Thomas More was hammered by Washington and Jefferson this year.  They lost big.  The same Washington and Jefferson that Fisher monkey stomped.  I feel like if Thomas More were playing in the E8 they would certainly have more than one loss. 

[sjfcards]

If AU wins I don't think the numbers put them in the discussion...

If Fisher wins they might get a mention for the final Pool C because of their numbers...

I also don't think the number of at large bids per region is discussed, if a West team has better numbers and gets passed over just to give the East (or any other region) a bid it would be a huge disservice to the selection process...

I agree that there likely isn't any overt discussion about bids per region, however we're talking about human nature here.  If for four rounds the East and South representatives continue to make their cases for Thomas More and the Courage Bowl winner, then their arguments may carry more weight the fifth time they're made against the new top teams from the North and West.  These administrators/coaches need to be able to look each other in the face, but also their regional constituents afterward and I wouldn't be surprised if a bone was thrown on that final selection.  Now, would that favor a 1-loss Thomas More with a lower SoS or a 2-loss E8 school with a higher SoS?

Thomas More was hammered by Washington and Jefferson this year.  They lost big.  The same Washington and Jefferson that Fisher monkey stomped.  I feel like if Thomas More were playing in the E8 they would certainly have more than one loss.

I agree with this, and this that most others would agree as well. That is the good news for teams like AU and Fisher when one of the. Ends up 8-2. There is no doubt the E8 is a good conference that has had success in the tournament in the past. I think there is an argument to be made for putting the winner of Fisher and AU into the field, but as many have said, I also think there is just too many good teams with 1 loss. Fisher and or AU need some help in the final week.

[AUPepBand]

So in an unusual twist of fate, the webcast of last year's AU-SJFC football game somehow remains online and available at:
http://empire8.ezstream.com/play/index.cfm?fuseaction=embstay&id=3222CF3B3C&dsplvl=affil
if anyone wants to watch it leading up to the Courage Bowl.

Also, here's a 4 minute clip highlighting the 2009 meeting of the Saxons and Cardinals at Growney Stadium, a 31-28 Saxon win that was a key victory in AU's first entry in the NCAA Playoffs since 1981.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVk1KA_MX0M

Pep wonders what kind of crowd a Nov. 16 Courage Bowl will draw as opposed to a warm September evening Courage Bowl. Exited to see about that on saterday.

On Saxon Warriors!

[ExTartanPlayer]

If AU wins I don't think the numbers put them in the discussion...

If Fisher wins they might get a mention for the final Pool C because of their numbers...

I also don't think the number of at large bids per region is discussed, if a West team has better numbers and gets passed over just to give the East (or any other region) a bid it would be a huge disservice to the selection process...

I agree that there likely isn't any overt discussion about bids per region, however we're talking about human nature here.  If for four rounds the East and South representatives continue to make their cases for Thomas More and the Courage Bowl winner, then their arguments may carry more weight the fifth time they're made against the new top teams from the North and West.  These administrators/coaches need to be able to look each other in the face, but also their regional constituents afterward and I wouldn't be surprised if a bone was thrown on that final selection.  Now, would that favor a 1-loss Thomas More with a lower SoS or a 2-loss E8 school with a higher SoS?

Thomas More was hammered by Washington and Jefferson this year.  They lost big.  The same Washington and Jefferson that Fisher monkey stomped.  I feel like if Thomas More were playing in the E8 they would certainly have more than one loss.

Looking at one game against one common opponent to define how a team would stack up in another conference is a bit silly.  TMC was blown out by W & J, yes.  There's also a fair amount of evidence that result is at least somewhat out of character for ONE of those teams, given that W & J has played close games (or even lost to) other teams that TMC obliterated.  W & J earned the win and is probably the better side, sure, but using a single result like that to evaluate BOTH teams (and then infer where one of them would stack up in a conference based on a second result involving a single team from that other conference) is a biiiiiiiiit of a stretch.

Let's play this game from another angle:  St. John Fisher lost to Salisbury.  The same Salisbury that lost to current USAC third-place resident Christopher Newport.  I feel like if St. John Fisher were playing in the USAC they would certainly be no better than third place.

Or how about this one: Alfred lost to RPI.  The same RPI currently sitting in last place in the Liberty League.  I certainly feel that if Alfred were playing in the LL they would have more than one conference loss.

(*Note: I know that my alternative arguments above are easily debunked, but that's exactly my point; using a single game on a team's schedule to define them is ridiculous, and those arguments are no different in structure or evidence than the argument presented re: SJF-TMC above)

Re: the original discussion, I know what you're saying about human nature but I just don't really buy it.  The discussion should start fresh each time.  If the next team up from the West or North is a better candidate, they'll get in.  If four bids are gone and Pacific Lutheran or St. Thomas or Wabash is on the board from the West/North and they look better than 8-2 Fisher, it will not matter that Fisher has been discussed four times already.

[boobyhasgameyo]

If AU wins I don't think the numbers put them in the discussion...

If Fisher wins they might get a mention for the final Pool C because of their numbers...

I also don't think the number of at large bids per region is discussed, if a West team has better numbers and gets passed over just to give the East (or any other region) a bid it would be a huge disservice to the selection process...

I agree that there likely isn't any overt discussion about bids per region, however we're talking about human nature here.  If for four rounds the East and South representatives continue to make their cases for Thomas More and the Courage Bowl winner, then their arguments may carry more weight the fifth time they're made against the new top teams from the North and West.  These administrators/coaches need to be able to look each other in the face, but also their regional constituents afterward and I wouldn't be surprised if a bone was thrown on that final selection.  Now, would that favor a 1-loss Thomas More with a lower SoS or a 2-loss E8 school with a higher SoS?

Thomas More was hammered by Washington and Jefferson this year.  They lost big.  The same Washington and Jefferson that Fisher monkey stomped.  I feel like if Thomas More were playing in the E8 they would certainly have more than one loss.

Looking at one game against one common opponent to define how a team would stack up in another conference is a bit silly.  TMC was blown out by W & J, yes.  There's also a fair amount of evidence that result is at least somewhat out of character for ONE of those teams, given that W & J has played close games (or even lost to) other teams that TMC obliterated.  W & J earned the win and is probably the better side, sure, but using a single result like that to evaluate BOTH teams (and then infer where one of them would stack up in a conference based on a second result involving a single team from that other conference) is a biiiiiiiiit of a stretch.

Let's play this game from another angle:  St. John Fisher lost to Salisbury.  The same Salisbury that lost to current USAC third-place resident Christopher Newport.  I feel like if St. John Fisher were playing in the USAC they would certainly be no better than third place.

Or how about this one: Alfred lost to RPI.  The same RPI currently sitting in last place in the Liberty League.  I certainly feel that if Alfred were playing in the LL they would have more than one conference loss.

(*Note: I know that my alternative arguments above are easily debunked, but that's exactly my point; using a single game on a team's schedule to define them is ridiculous, and those arguments are no different in structure or evidence than the argument presented re: SJF-TMC above)

Re: the original discussion, I know what you're saying about human nature but I just don't really buy it.  The discussion should start fresh each time.  If the next team up from the West or North is a better candidate, they'll get in.  If four bids are gone and Pacific Lutheran or St. Thomas or Wabash is on the board from the West/North and they look better than 8-2 Fisher, it will not matter that Fisher has been discussed four times already.

Bro, if Thomas More were playing in the E8 they would have more than one loss on the season.  I'm not basing it entirely off the common opponent, although I like how you seem to completely dismiss it.  They were both pretty decisive games.  I'm basing it off the fact that our conference is stronger than theirs from top to bottom.  I'm basing it off of my own personal belief stemming from last year when I saw an offensively inept St. John Fisher beat Thomas More. 

If you think Thomas More would make it out of games against Salisbury, Fisher, Ithaca, Alfred, Buff State, Utica and even Hartwick with only one loss or less then I would say get real. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

If AU wins I don't think the numbers put them in the discussion...

If Fisher wins they might get a mention for the final Pool C because of their numbers...

I also don't think the number of at large bids per region is discussed, if a West team has better numbers and gets passed over just to give the East (or any other region) a bid it would be a huge disservice to the selection process...

I agree that there likely isn't any overt discussion about bids per region, however we're talking about human nature here.  If for four rounds the East and South representatives continue to make their cases for Thomas More and the Courage Bowl winner, then their arguments may carry more weight the fifth time they're made against the new top teams from the North and West.  These administrators/coaches need to be able to look each other in the face, but also their regional constituents afterward and I wouldn't be surprised if a bone was thrown on that final selection.  Now, would that favor a 1-loss Thomas More with a lower SoS or a 2-loss E8 school with a higher SoS?

Thomas More was hammered by Washington and Jefferson this year.  They lost big.  The same Washington and Jefferson that Fisher monkey stomped.  I feel like if Thomas More were playing in the E8 they would certainly have more than one loss.

Looking at one game against one common opponent to define how a team would stack up in another conference is a bit silly.  TMC was blown out by W & J, yes.  There's also a fair amount of evidence that result is at least somewhat out of character for ONE of those teams, given that W & J has played close games (or even lost to) other teams that TMC obliterated.  W & J earned the win and is probably the better side, sure, but using a single result like that to evaluate BOTH teams (and then infer where one of them would stack up in a conference based on a second result involving a single team from that other conference) is a biiiiiiiiit of a stretch.

Let's play this game from another angle:  St. John Fisher lost to Salisbury.  The same Salisbury that lost to current USAC third-place resident Christopher Newport.  I feel like if St. John Fisher were playing in the USAC they would certainly be no better than third place.

Or how about this one: Alfred lost to RPI.  The same RPI currently sitting in last place in the Liberty League.  I certainly feel that if Alfred were playing in the LL they would have more than one conference loss.

(*Note: I know that my alternative arguments above are easily debunked, but that's exactly my point; using a single game on a team's schedule to define them is ridiculous, and those arguments are no different in structure or evidence than the argument presented re: SJF-TMC above)

Re: the original discussion, I know what you're saying about human nature but I just don't really buy it.  The discussion should start fresh each time.  If the next team up from the West or North is a better candidate, they'll get in.  If four bids are gone and Pacific Lutheran or St. Thomas or Wabash is on the board from the West/North and they look better than 8-2 Fisher, it will not matter that Fisher has been discussed four times already.

Bro, if Thomas More were playing in the E8 they would have more than one loss on the season.  I'm not basing it entirely off the common opponent, although I like how you seem to completely dismiss it.  They were both pretty decisive games.  I'm basing it off the fact that our conference is stronger than theirs from top to bottom.  I'm basing it off of my own personal belief stemming from last year when I saw an offensively inept St. John Fisher beat Thomas More. 

If you think Thomas More would make it out of games against Salisbury, Fisher, Ithaca, Alfred, Buff State, Utica and even Hartwick with only one loss or less then I would say get real.

Nowhere in my post did I actually say TMC would be 9-1 playing in the E8.  What I did say was that you can't possibly judge a team/conference based on a single game.

As for the "our conference is stronger than theirs from top to bottom" - I think that is likely true, yes, but it's still based off an awful lot of conjecture and assumptions AND based on the same sort of cherry-picking, subjective BS that I used to build my little strawmen in the previous post.  In the Empire 8, when Hartwick beats Ithaca, that's because the conference is just so damn deep and tough.  When Alfred loses to the last-place team in the Liberty League and still plays for the E8 title, it's not a strike against the E8 but, uh, something else.  In the PAC, when W & J beats Thomas More after losing to SJF, it's because no one in the PAC is any good and there's no way TMC could beat the monsters of the Empire 8.  Huh?

I know certain people here think the E8 is a conference full of special snowflakes where everything that goes against the grain has an excuse which somehow is never, ever, ever afforded to other conferences or regions.

[boobyhasgameyo]

If AU wins I don't think the numbers put them in the discussion...

If Fisher wins they might get a mention for the final Pool C because of their numbers...

I also don't think the number of at large bids per region is discussed, if a West team has better numbers and gets passed over just to give the East (or any other region) a bid it would be a huge disservice to the selection process...

I agree that there likely isn't any overt discussion about bids per region, however we're talking about human nature here.  If for four rounds the East and South representatives continue to make their cases for Thomas More and the Courage Bowl winner, then their arguments may carry more weight the fifth time they're made against the new top teams from the North and West.  These administrators/coaches need to be able to look each other in the face, but also their regional constituents afterward and I wouldn't be surprised if a bone was thrown on that final selection.  Now, would that favor a 1-loss Thomas More with a lower SoS or a 2-loss E8 school with a higher SoS?

Thomas More was hammered by Washington and Jefferson this year.  They lost big.  The same Washington and Jefferson that Fisher monkey stomped.  I feel like if Thomas More were playing in the E8 they would certainly have more than one loss.

Looking at one game against one common opponent to define how a team would stack up in another conference is a bit silly.  TMC was blown out by W & J, yes.  There's also a fair amount of evidence that result is at least somewhat out of character for ONE of those teams, given that W & J has played close games (or even lost to) other teams that TMC obliterated.  W & J earned the win and is probably the better side, sure, but using a single result like that to evaluate BOTH teams (and then infer where one of them would stack up in a conference based on a second result involving a single team from that other conference) is a biiiiiiiiit of a stretch.

Let's play this game from another angle:  St. John Fisher lost to Salisbury.  The same Salisbury that lost to current USAC third-place resident Christopher Newport.  I feel like if St. John Fisher were playing in the USAC they would certainly be no better than third place.

Or how about this one: Alfred lost to RPI.  The same RPI currently sitting in last place in the Liberty League.  I certainly feel that if Alfred were playing in the LL they would have more than one conference loss.

(*Note: I know that my alternative arguments above are easily debunked, but that's exactly my point; using a single game on a team's schedule to define them is ridiculous, and those arguments are no different in structure or evidence than the argument presented re: SJF-TMC above)

Re: the original discussion, I know what you're saying about human nature but I just don't really buy it.  The discussion should start fresh each time.  If the next team up from the West or North is a better candidate, they'll get in.  If four bids are gone and Pacific Lutheran or St. Thomas or Wabash is on the board from the West/North and they look better than 8-2 Fisher, it will not matter that Fisher has been discussed four times already.

Bro, if Thomas More were playing in the E8 they would have more than one loss on the season.  I'm not basing it entirely off the common opponent, although I like how you seem to completely dismiss it.  They were both pretty decisive games.  I'm basing it off the fact that our conference is stronger than theirs from top to bottom.  I'm basing it off of my own personal belief stemming from last year when I saw an offensively inept St. John Fisher beat Thomas More. 

If you think Thomas More would make it out of games against Salisbury, Fisher, Ithaca, Alfred, Buff State, Utica and even Hartwick with only one loss or less then I would say get real.

Nowhere in my post did I actually say TMC would be 9-1 playing in the E8.  What I did say was that you can't possibly judge a team/conference based on a single game.

As for the "our conference is stronger than theirs from top to bottom" - I think that is likely true, yes, but it's still based off an awful lot of conjecture and assumptions AND based on the same sort of cherry-picking, subjective BS that I used to build my little strawmen in the previous post.  In the Empire 8, when Hartwick beats Ithaca, that's because the conference is just so damn deep and tough.  When Alfred loses to the last-place team in the Liberty League and still plays for the E8 title, it's not a strike against the E8 but, uh, something else.  In the PAC, when W & J beats Thomas More after losing to SJF, it's because no one in the PAC is any good and there's no way TMC could beat the monsters of the Empire 8.  Huh?

I know certain people here think the E8 is a conference full of special snowflakes where everything that goes against the grain has an excuse which somehow is never, ever, ever afforded to other conferences or regions.

No, I like to base it off of things like our out of conference opponents, the winning percentage of our conference against those out of conference opponents (E8 went 16-7 this year, the PAC went 6-8), how our conference is rated much higher than theirs on this site, the fact that the only reference we have directly between our conferences in the past couple of years is Fisher being 3-0 against the PAC...you know, pesky little things like that.

[JQV]

Remember me?

Two years to the day since my last post.  And, to be honest, I haven't really been able to follow the Bombers at all in that time except to know they had some bad years.  In fact, I just came back to see if this was, in fact, Cortaca week only to learn that we ("we" seems wrong given my extended absence, but make room on the bandwagon) won the E8 and beat Fisher.

So, I hope all E8PPers are well.  And Go Bombers.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Welcome back Jose!  +k to hold you off for the next couple of years. 

[AUPepBand]

Remember me?

Two years to the day since my last post.  And, to be honest, I haven't really been able to follow the Bombers at all in that time except to know they had some bad years.  In fact, I just came back to see if this was, in fact, Cortaca week only to learn that we ("we" seems wrong given my extended absence, but make room on the bandwagon) won the E8 and beat Fisher.

So, I hope all E8PPers are well.  And Go Bombers.

Haha...Pep knew that Ithaca's E8 AQ would bring out a few more of those fair weather Bomber fans! Now if we could just hear from maninyellowhat, the bandwagon would be almost filled!

+K

Go Saxons....beat the birds!

[JQV]

I won't challenge you characterizing me as a fair-weather fan given my absence.  But, to be clear, it was Cortaca that brought me back.  I just happened to discover the AQ while looking for Cortaca info.

Also, can a person be a 'fair-weather' fan of a team that plays games in New York in the fall?  This Florida Boy doesn't remember the weather ever being 'fair.'

[AUKaz00]

I won't challenge you characterizing me as a fair-weather fan given my absence.  But, to be clear, it was Cortaca that brought me back.  I just happened to discover the AQ while looking for Cortaca info.

Also, can a person be a 'fair-weather' fan of a team that plays games in New York in the fall?  This Florida Boy doesn't remember the weather ever being 'fair.'

Whatever it is, the Kaz00 family will be escaping it next week and heading to Viper country.  Walking the beach in search of shark teeth and a trip to Legoland sound far better than WNY in November!