FB: Empire 8

[Pat Coleman]

Further I just don't understand the fascination with having a bracket built around the region. Let it go. The playoffs aren't all that regional anymore and won't be unless the money dries up. Moving Wesley in doesn't mean anything for the "East" anymore than when the MAC was shifted from South to East.

I think it has to do with avoiding a team like Mount/UMHB for an extra round, which hopefully allows a team to go a round deeper into the playoffs

Interesting. The care isn't to actually be one of the best teams in the country, it's just to survive longer until facing one? I guess we all suffer from that desire. I know I did when W&L made the playoffs. Still, doesn't really say much about the quality of the team, simply that the inevitable was put off for another week.

Honestly, I think a lot of it is that it's Mount Union that often takes our place.

Except that it isn't your place. No place is guaranteed to each region.

[ExTartanPlayer]

As usual, I think ETP makes some great points. Especially at the D-III level, there is a lot of value in things other than national championships—conference titles, rivalry games, and the like. I know some pretty bitter IC fans who still want the team to be successful like they were under Butterfield, and I always remind them that for 20 years, Mike Welch has won more than 70 percent of his games, and that's damn special.

But I still think that puts a gloss over the fact that, at the end of the day, there is a championship, and in D-III football, that is a realistic goal for an absurdly small fraction of the teams. Yes, it's the responsibility of those teams/athletic departments to improve, but we're not them. We've got little to no control over the input, so all we can do is analyze the output. And while every sport has its has/have-not's, the idea that 97-98% of the teams in D-III football are playing solely for the joy of the game, conference titles and rivalry trophies, while the lucky 2-3% get to experience a shot at a title, well, it sucks.

That's fair, and I know that post might have come off a little preachy.

I just think it is worth remembering that, even for teams with no shot at a national championship, there are plenty of reasons to play the games anyway.

I know you get that.  We're not really in "disagreement" here.  It would be cool if more teams had a genuine shot at the national title, of course.  But even if Mount and UWW win the next dozen championships, I'll still be following Division III football and rooting for my teams, and other little fun stories (like Hartwick's Team Boltus years, and other similar underdog stories).

[D3viewer]

My E8 Power Rankings

1. Ithaca: I have a sneaking suspicion they'd lose to Fisher right now, but they're the only undefeated team in the conference, and, right now, that's enough. There's not as much separating them and Fisher as there is Fisher and Buffalo State

2. Fisher: The Salisbury curse continues. They are still the most talented team in the E8, IMO.

3. Buffalo State: I'm still not 100% on these guys, but they're 4-1, and you know they're just itching to take out IC. Big chance for a statement this week

4. Utica: I know, I'm surprised too. But I'm not really impressed with the middle of the pack in the E8, and given that Acevedo was out and the game was at Ithaca, they looked pretty good Saturday.

5. Salisbury: Probably going to pick up some steam as a dark horse as that triple option is clicking, but they've given up 32, 43, 32, and 34 points. Against a tough schedule, sure. But that's still not good.

6. Alfred: Turnovers, turnovers, turnovers. Until the Saxons teach their team to hang onto the ball, they're going to continue losing games they shouldn't. They've had 10 in their last three games.

7. Hartwick: Nice win over Alfred, but the Saxons still have the better resume IMO

8. Brockport: Wins over Oberlin and Cortland just do not look good

9. Frostburg: The defense was torched for some big plays, and the offense doesn't seem to have much

Yes !! Looking forward to the E9 "Toilet Bowl" this weekend. Bring the kids..it's Kids Day.

[wesleydad]

As usual, I think ETP makes some great points. Especially at the D-III level, there is a lot of value in things other than national championships—conference titles, rivalry games, and the like. I know some pretty bitter IC fans who still want the team to be successful like they were under Butterfield, and I always remind them that for 20 years, Mike Welch has won more than 70 percent of his games, and that's damn special.

But I still think that puts a gloss over the fact that, at the end of the day, there is a championship, and in D-III football, that is a realistic goal for an absurdly small fraction of the teams. Yes, it's the responsibility of those teams/athletic departments to improve, but we're not them. We've got little to no control over the input, so all we can do is analyze the output. And while every sport has its has/have-not's, the idea that 97-98% of the teams in D-III football are playing solely for the joy of the game, conference titles and rivalry trophies, while the lucky 2-3% get to experience a shot at a title, well, it sucks.

That's fair, and I know that post might have come off a little preachy.

I just think it is worth remembering that, even for teams with no shot at a national championship, there are plenty of reasons to play the games anyway.

I know you get that.  We're not really in "disagreement" here.  It would be cool if more teams had a genuine shot at the national title, of course.  But even if Mount and UWW win the next dozen championships, I'll still be following Division III football and rooting for my teams, and other little fun stories (like Hartwick's Team Boltus years, and other similar underdog stories).

Agree with both of you.  ETP, it is about playing the game for most of the kids that play D3.  Bombers, also agree, realistically only 4 or 5 teams have a chance to win it all and that does ruin it for many others.  As good as Wesley has been they have never made the final, losing to the big 2 each time.  It was great being in the games, but sure would have been better seeing them in Salem.

[Bombers798891]

Further I just don't understand the fascination with having a bracket built around the region. Let it go. The playoffs aren't all that regional anymore and won't be unless the money dries up. Moving Wesley in doesn't mean anything for the "East" anymore than when the MAC was shifted from South to East.

I think it has to do with avoiding a team like Mount/UMHB for an extra round, which hopefully allows a team to go a round deeper into the playoffs

Interesting. The care isn't to actually be one of the best teams in the country, it's just to survive longer until facing one? I guess we all suffer from that desire. I know I did when W&L made the playoffs. Still, doesn't really say much about the quality of the team, simply that the inevitable was put off for another week.

Honestly, I think a lot of it is that it's Mount Union that often takes our place.

Except that it isn't your place. No place is guaranteed to each region.

The point, Pat, is not that the place disappeared. To me, I'm fine with that. The issue for me, is the team that comes in (justifiably) is a team that has dominated the sport to the point of making nearly everything a forgone conclusion. Mount union's dominance is boring. Seeing them in the first and second round is boring and depressing, no matter if they're deserving of that spot

[middlerelief]

The point, Pat, is not that the place disappeared. To me, I'm fine with that. The issue for me, is the team that comes in (justifiably) is a team that has dominated the sport to the point of making nearly everything a forgone conclusion. Mount union's dominance is boring. Seeing them in the first and second round is boring and depressing, no matter if they're deserving of that spot

Last season the playoff games with Mt. Union were fairly exciting (except the Stagg Bowl when UWW smacked them . . well Mt Union style)

I don't buy into the whoa is the rest of D3 because Mt. Union, UWW, MHB, Wesley and Linfield are so much better than everyone else-- some would make the same case about the SEC West in BCS Land. 

The beautiful thing is in D3 everyone has a shot to knock these teams off and don't have to rely all that much on polls - win your conference, and you're invited to the dance - some teams are happy to be there, some want to win.  And someday, another program will.

[middlerelief]

Now back to the Reason I'm on D3 Boards tonight:

RE: SJF Loss to Salisbury

I still cannot believe with Time Outs remaining, the conference best QB and WRs in place, how any functioning football brain takes a knee to end regulation. 

To add to the elite program debate -- elite programs are staffed with coaches that want to win for the sake of winning, and want that outcome decided in their hands.  SJF forgot that, and as a result, cannot be apart of a discussion of a top program -- just that they're not one of them yet.  No Killer Instinct.  Linfield, St Thomas, MHB, UWW, Wesley, Mt. -- would you honestly think they'd have taken a knee or would they have done everything they could to get  a win?

The choke job by Fisher Coaches wasn't as bad as Cortland's to end the Brockport game -- but pretty close. 

Onward I guess from here, and hope SJF program learned something from this past week.

[fisheralum91]

Yes please.......move on....
On to Cincinnati!


Anyhoo- I think that a majority of us are just plain tired of the DIII haves and have nots.
You know its unnerving when Ithaca and Fisher fans are banding together and rooting for each other!   

I havent seen this type of disparity in any sport since Hobart Lax when they were DIII.
Its boring.
I have no solution so dont look to me to have any answer- im merely venting.

Oh----BTW- now that I have calmed down and got talked off the ledge----I still think that SJFC makes a DEEP run in the playoffs......

Just sayin

[Bombers798891]

Now back to the Reason I'm on D3 Boards tonight:

RE: SJF Loss to Salisbury

I still cannot believe with Time Outs remaining, the conference best QB and WRs in place, how any functioning football brain takes a knee to end regulation. 

To add to the elite program debate -- elite programs are staffed with coaches that want to win for the sake of winning, and want that outcome decided in their hands.  SJF forgot that, and as a result, cannot be apart of a discussion of a top program -- just that they're not one of them yet.  No Killer Instinct.  Linfield, St Thomas, MHB, UWW, Wesley, Mt. -- would you honestly think they'd have taken a knee or would they have done everything they could to get  a win?

I think your frustration is misplaced.

1. There were 12 seconds left in the game when Fisher got the ball back on their own 31. Great QB/WR combo or not, timeouts or not, 12 seconds is just not a lot of time. Fisher had gone for it at the end of the 2nd half with 44 seconds to go, but 12 seconds? You might get three plays, but I doubt it. Not when you've got to give guys time to get downfield.

The best case scenario is probably you gain 15-20 yards and chuck up a Hail Mary. But there are negatives too. You could have a strip sack—that had already happened once to Fisher in that game—and then Salisbury's got their own shot at winning

2. Either way, Fisher's chance at a statement had probably flown out the window at that point. Wesley didn't just beat Salisbury this year, they obliterated them. All squeaking by Salisbury would have done would have held their position. And honestly, it's a catch-22, because had Fisher blown out Salisbury, the Gulls would be 1-3, coming off a 7-4 season, with two blowout losses to elite teams, and a loss to a good, not great Buff State team. Fisher's problem with Salisbury isn't end-of-game management, it's their inability to get a handle on triple option teams' offense.

[Bombers798891]

Oh----BTW- now that I have calmed down and got talked off the ledge----I still think that SJFC makes a DEEP run in the playoffs......

Just sayin

So, as I've said, I think Fisher is the most talented team in the conference, and they probably win it.

That said, the Salisbury loss complicates things because now, Fisher's not exactly a lock to make the playoffs. Now, I think they will, but the last three games against IC have all been very close. And their OOC slate, for once, isn't really impressive. Best case, you're looking at a 4th place, four-loss Otterbein and Alfred State.

I don't know that that 8-2 Fisher team gets a Pool C invite.

Again, I think Fisher's the favorite for a Pool A, but things are a lot more precarious than they used to be

[fisheralum91]

Hey bombers---who said anything about another loss?

[Bombers798891]

Hey bombers---who said anything about another loss?

IC's kick return unit.

Too soon?

[wally_wabash]

The best case scenario is probably you gain 15-20 yards and chuck up a Hail Mary. But there are negatives too. You could have a strip sack—that had already happened once to Fisher in that game—and then Salisbury's got their own shot at winning

In 2001, Wabash gave up a tying score to DePauw with something like 12 seconds left.  DPU squibbed the kickoff, and Wabash had the ball with 7.8 seconds left somewhere around their 40.  They threw a quick slant to gain about 10 yards, called a timeout with 3 seconds left.  Then the Hail Mary and touchdown.  Wabash wins the Monon Bell.  Obviously, I'm not a coach, but I think SJF had an opportunity to run a couple of plays and maybe throw it up to the end zone.  Stranger things have happened.  I get the knee if you run a play from the 31 and throw an incomplete pass or whatever, because at that point you can't kick or throw it far enough to score, but they had one, maybe two plays to get that thing to midfield and have a shot. 

I digress.  My main reason for popping in here is to note that I've given a cursory glance to E8 results in 2014 and it looks like the league has positioned itself, again, quite well for at-large consideration for even a 2-loss team.  Fisher having Alfred State on the schedule probably means that they can't get all the way up to the .575 or whatever it was SOS that they had last year, but they're still going to have a big burly SOS that could very well offset a second loss should that happen. 

[fisheralum91]

Bombers-killing me
dogs and cats living together........Fisher and IC fans getting along
Its anarchy!

[Bombers798891]

In 2001, Wabash gave up a tying score to DePauw with something like 12 seconds left.  DPU squibbed the kickoff, and Wabash had the ball with 7.8 seconds left somewhere around their 40.  They threw a quick slant to gain about 10 yards, called a timeout with 3 seconds left.  Then the Hail Mary and touchdown.  Wabash wins the Monon Bell.  Obviously, I'm not a coach, but I think SJF had an opportunity to run a couple of plays and maybe throw it up to the end zone.  Stranger things have happened.  I get the knee if you run a play from the 31 and throw an incomplete pass or whatever, because at that point you can't kick or throw it far enough to score, but they had one, maybe two plays to get that thing to midfield and have a shot. 

I digress.  My main reason for popping in here is to note that I've given a cursory glance to E8 results in 2014 and it looks like the league has positioned itself, again, quite well for at-large consideration for even a 2-loss team.  Fisher having Alfred State on the schedule probably means that they can't get all the way up to the .575 or whatever it was SOS that they had last year, but they're still going to have a big burly SOS that could very well offset a second loss should that happen.

1. In last season's Cortaca, Cortland started drive on their own 37 with 11 seconds to go in the 2nd quarter, they fumbled, IC took over on the Cortland 42 and threw a Hail Mary that Joel Lynch caught in the air, only to lose control of it when he landed. I think there's a thought by some fans that in a scenario like Fisher's, there's no harm in taking a shot, but there is. It may be small, but so are the chances of going 69 yards in 12 seconds for a touchdown.

2. I'm a little torn on the two-loss thing. I think Fisher could get in with two. But IC is unlikely considering their OOC opponents are currently 0-8. (We'll talk about Buff State and Utica if they beat SJF or IC)