FB: Empire 8

[Bengalsrule]

Salisbury lost all hope to be perceived as an elite team when Wesley tore them apart Ithaca and Buff State may wind up ranked, but no one's thinking of them as great.

There are some folks at 1300 Elmwood that may disagree with that statement! 

[Bombers798891]

Warning: Very lengthy post ahead. The TL;DR version: Is the E8's repeated failures to get an unbeaten team (and a #1 seed) is it the quality of opponent that's the issue, or are E8 teams losing games they should win?

I was thinking about this the other night while thinking about E8 playoff scenarios and how we've got yet another year where no E8 team goes through the regular season unscathed. The Empire 8 is a great conference, and certainly better top-to-bottom that many conferences that do produce 10-0/9-0 teams. Still, in looking back through 10 years of results, I don't think depth is the only reason we've got these issues. (It's too early to call 2014 yet)

2004— Champion: Fisher. Regular-season loss: Norwich (7-4)
The strangest loss in E8 history, IMO. Fisher allows Norwich to score a season-high 39 points, a week after the Cadets score 7 against Ithaca. Only Hartwick and Utica allow more than 24 points to Norwich. All the other elite E8 teams blow them out. Cause of demise: A (really) winnable game lost

2005- Champion: Ithaca. First regular-season loss: Lycoming (6-4)
Lycoming scored more than 17 points just twice this season. They had 35 against 0-10 Juniata the opening week of the season, then lost four straight before they hit up IC for 33—albeit in overtime. This was foreshadowing of Ithaca's hidden defensive issues, which were exposing in an embarrassing 55-41 loss to Union in the NCAAs. Still, even a not great Ithaca team should have done better. Cause of demise: Winnable game lost

2006- Champion: Springfield. Regular-season loss: Ithaca (7-3)
This one is tricky. Ithaca wasn't bad that season, and had certainly fixed their defensive issues from 2005. And the game was played in lousy weather on grass, not the turf Springfield loved. But, Ithaca's other losses all came to good/very good teams, proving they were no giant slayers. Verdict: Not knowing how to play on grass is no excuse. But, at the same time, Fisher would have been unbeaten had Springfield not been so good. So, we have a split decision. For Springfield, a winnable game lost. For Fisher, a loss to an elite team

2007: Champion: Hartwick. First regular-season loss: Western New England
This year, probably the E8's high-water mark, was a mess. Hartwick's loss is lousy, and they were clearly the third best team in the conference—which makes Ithaca's and Fisher's losses to them just strange. You could argue the Wick was good enough to call Fisher's loss to them one of depth, but honestly, if 3-7 Western New England can take the Hawks to the cleaners, Fisher should have at least won. Cause of demise: Winnable game lost by the Wick and Fisher

2008: Champion: Ithaca. Regular-season loss: Fisher
This was the time of the "Fisher owns Ithaca" started to get traction. Fisher wasn't a typical 4-loss team, considering two of their losses were to Mount Union and Salisbury. But for every narrow Cardinal loss to a good team, there was a narrow win (17-10 over Utica, 24-17 over Rochester) over a lousy one. and the Bombers lost this game by 31 points. And if Ithaca was good enough to obliterate an undefeated Cortland team with their backup quarterback, on the road, they should have won this one. Cause of demise: Winnable game lost (sorry Fisher guys)

2009: Champion: Alfred. Regular-season loss: Ithaca
Much like Springfield, Alfred is a total disaster on the Butterfield grass. And Ithaca did finish 7-3. But they'd barely escaped Utica, Cortland, and Hartwick, needing to rally by the Pioneers. Cause of demise: Winnable game lost. Again, grass is everywhere. Figure it out

2010: Champion: Alfred. First regular season loss: RPI
The 4-loss Engineers were beaten 42-21 by Utica, 24-10 by a 3-7 WPI, and obliterated by 56-13 Fisher. The LL had a 5-5 conference champion, and Alfred lost to two teams in it. Cause of demise: Winnable game lost

2011: Champion: Salisbury. Regular season loss: Wesley
This one is self-explanatory. Cause of demise: Loss to an elite team

2012: Champion: Salisbury. First regular-season loss: Wesley/b]
Well, we can't hold the Wesley loss against them, but they also lost to a 6-4 Ithaca on the same grass that ate Springfield alive. Cause of demise: Loss to an elite team. Followed by a "Grass is no excuse" winnable game lost

2013: Champion: Ithaca. First regular-season loss: Hartwick
The cage may be a house of horrors for some teams, but the Bombers also lost to a mediocre Cortland team. Cause of demise: Winnable game lost X2

Look, when I say these games are "winnable" that doesn't necessarily mean the losses are bad. Many of these teams who beat the conference winner were good teams.

That said, in almost all of these years, I believe the reason behind a non-unbeaten team is that an identifiably better team lost a game it could have won. There were two instances—Fisher to Springfield in '06 and Salisbury to Wesley in 2011—where the losses were 100% understandable, but at least twice as many that had no business happening (Fisher in 2004, Ithaca in 2005, Wick in 2007, Alfred in 2010).

I don't know. This is probably a lot of wasted typeface. But what the heck, it's a slow day

[boobyhasgameyo]

For the record - that 2004 game against Norwich, also known as Pierre Garcon's coming out party, was technically a loss but in actuality should not have been.  Fisher "lost" on a Hail Mary that actually only made it to the 2 yard line, where the receiver remained.  In one of the strangest moments of mob mentality, with all of the fans going nuts and players rushing the field to celebrate, the refs inexplicably called it a touchdown.  I believe the game was protested, but I never know what good that serves anyway.

Should Fisher have been in that spot in the first place?  Nah, probably not.  Pierre Garçon had himself a day.  It happens.  But screw that, they didn't lose

[ExTartanPlayer]

For the record - that 2004 game against Norwich, also known as Pierre Garcon's coming out party, was technically a loss but in actuality should not have been.  Fisher "lost" on a Hail Mary that actually only made it to the 2 yard line, where the receiver remained.  In one of the strangest moments of mob mentality, with all of the fans going nuts and players rushing the field to celebrate, the refs inexplicably called it a touchdown.  I believe the game was protested, but I never know what good that serves anyway.

Should Fisher have been in that spot in the first place?  Nah, probably not.  Pierre Garçon had himself a day.  It happens.  But screw that, they didn't lose

This intrigued me so I went back and looked at the box score...holy ****.

7 catches, 182 yards, 4 TD's.

He was not the recipient of the aforementioned not-quite-successful-Hail-Mary.  I wish there was a video of this somewhere.  Is there?

A few other curiosities:

SJF had the ball, 3rd and 12 on the Norwich 41 with 1:06 remaining and Norwich out of timeouts.  SJF passed the ball (seeking the first down) and was intercepted.  If they'd run the ball, with Norwich out of timeouts, they could have run the clock down to about 25-30 seconds and punted, leaving Norwich 20 seconds to go 80 yards.  Of course, with the day Garcon had, maybe there's an argument for taking the crack at the first down instead of letting NU get any chance with the ball.

The PBP also shows that Norwich had 4th-and-15 on their own 18 a few plays later, and SJF was called for pass interference to give Norwich a first down.

All kinds of fun endgame stuff.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Although in some respects I wonder if that was a blessing in disguise for Fisher a couple of years later.  Perhaps I am over thinking this but follow me on a journey. 

Fisher losses to Norwich --> gets a lower seed which results in them having to play Delaware Valley in the 2nd round of the playoffs that year.  Fisher lost that game in another heartbreaker (I know players on that team who blamed the Fisher play calling for choking that game away - a problem that seems to persist).  But it stopped them from playing Rowan.  Delaware Valley went to New Jersey the following week and laid an egg big time.  They lost 56-7. 

I always wondered, what if that had been Fisher playing that game?  How would they have fared?  Maybe they would have matched up better and competed.  Maybe they would have been blown out as well.  If they had been...what implications would that have had during what would have been a rematch in 2006? 

Would Fisher have come out more tentative?  More reverent by nature?  I think that's human nature if you are about to face a team that still had a somewhat sterling reputation in 2006, and who took you to the woodshed in 2004.  But Fisher never played them.  They were able to meet Rowan in 2006 for the first time and play uninhibited by past ghosts.  Not tense/more apt to make mistakes, but to play loose. 

Just a thought. 

[boobyhasgameyo]

For the record - that 2004 game against Norwich, also known as Pierre Garcon's coming out party, was technically a loss but in actuality should not have been.  Fisher "lost" on a Hail Mary that actually only made it to the 2 yard line, where the receiver remained.  In one of the strangest moments of mob mentality, with all of the fans going nuts and players rushing the field to celebrate, the refs inexplicably called it a touchdown.  I believe the game was protested, but I never know what good that serves anyway.

Should Fisher have been in that spot in the first place?  Nah, probably not.  Pierre Garçon had himself a day.  It happens.  But screw that, they didn't lose

This intrigued me so I went back and looked at the box score...holy ****.

7 catches, 182 yards, 4 TD's.

He was not the recipient of the aforementioned not-quite-successful-Hail-Mary.  I wish there was a video of this somewhere.  Is there?

A few other curiosities:

SJF had the ball, 3rd and 12 on the Norwich 41 with 1:06 remaining and Norwich out of timeouts.  SJF passed the ball (seeking the first down) and was intercepted.  If they'd run the ball, with Norwich out of timeouts, they could have run the clock down to about 25-30 seconds and punted, leaving Norwich 20 seconds to go 80 yards.  Of course, with the day Garcon had, maybe there's an argument for taking the crack at the first down instead of letting NU get any chance with the ball.

The PBP also shows that Norwich had 4th-and-15 on their own 18 a few plays later, and SJF was called for pass interference to give Norwich a first down.

All kinds of fun endgame stuff.

Actually Ex, that whole passing that led to an interception instead of running...that's exactly what burned them at the end of Delaware Valley as well I believe.  That and the zone defense they ran as Del Valley effortlessly marched the ball down the field to inevitably take the lead for good in the closing moments.  Play calling.  Sheesh. 

[fisheralum91]

Here we go boys!
Safe travels to those coming into Utica tomorrow!
Have had this game circled for quite a while!
The atmosphere is going to be a bit crazy at UC so lets keep the fans quiet!!
GO CARDS!

[Bombers798891]

For the record - that 2004 game against Norwich, also known as Pierre Garcon's coming out party, was technically a loss but in actuality should not have been.  Fisher "lost" on a Hail Mary that actually only made it to the 2 yard line, where the receiver remained.  In one of the strangest moments of mob mentality, with all of the fans going nuts and players rushing the field to celebrate, the refs inexplicably called it a touchdown.  I believe the game was protested, but I never know what good that serves anyway.

Should Fisher have been in that spot in the first place?  Nah, probably not.  Pierre Garçon had himself a day.  It happens. 

Maybe it was karma for the Stepnick "interception"

Yeah, Garcon had a day, but when I looked at Norwich's games against the other three really good E8 teams that season, (31-7 to Ithaca, 49-13 to Springfield, 35-14 and 36-17 to Alfred), I decided that if those teams could do it, Fisher could have

[sjfcards]

For the record - that 2004 game against Norwich, also known as Pierre Garcon's coming out party, was technically a loss but in actuality should not have been.  Fisher "lost" on a Hail Mary that actually only made it to the 2 yard line, where the receiver remained.  In one of the strangest moments of mob mentality, with all of the fans going nuts and players rushing the field to celebrate, the refs inexplicably called it a touchdown.  I believe the game was protested, but I never know what good that serves anyway.

Should Fisher have been in that spot in the first place?  Nah, probably not.  Pierre Garçon had himself a day.  It happens. 

Maybe it was karma for the Stepnick "interception"

Yeah, Garcon had a day, but when I looked at Norwich's games against the other three really good E8 teams that season, (31-7 to Ithaca, 49-13 to Springfield, 35-14 and 36-17 to Alfred), I decided that if those teams could do it, Fisher could have

Come on, that pick was clean...

This cnversation got me thinking about the worst loss in Fisher (or any other teams) recent history. For Fisher as bad as the Norwich and the Hartwick loss where they went for it on fourth and goal, neither really hurt them too much. They still made the playoffs and did some damage.

Forme the worst loss for Fisher was the 2010 loss to Salisbury. Not because it was shocking, or because it should never have happened, but because I still think that was one of the enter Fisher teams and they were at home. Take care of business and make the playoffs with one loss. I would have loved to have seen what that Fisher team could have done.

[fisheralum91]

For me the Hartwick loss in Oneonta was absolutely the worst.
We should have steamrolled team Boltus that night.

Thanks for bringing up such a great memory.....

That ride back home was probably the fastest Ive ever gotten home from Otown.....

[Bombers798891]

Come on, that pick was clean...

This cnversation got me thinking about the worst loss in Fisher (or any other teams) recent history. For Fisher as bad as the Norwich and the Hartwick loss where they went for it on fourth and goal, neither really hurt them too much. They still made the playoffs and did some damage.

Forme the worst loss for Fisher was the 2010 loss to Salisbury. Not because it was shocking, or because it should never have happened, but because I still think that was one of the enter Fisher teams and they were at home. Take care of business and make the playoffs with one loss. I would have loved to have seen what that Fisher team could have done.

Yeah, I was really impressed by Bailey that season, but they ran into a couple of good teams that year. But I thought the 2010 team was demonstrably better than the 2011 version that won two playoff games. I'd have like to have seen that 2010 offense in the playoffs

Ultimately, I think this gets to the core of why I don't like when people overly rely on the postseason when discussing the best players/teams. Obviously, that stuff is important, but there's a lot of luck that goes into any season.  Sometimes you get the breaks, sometimes you don't. Guys get hurt, small mistakes get made. Heck, you could argue luck helped IC win two national titles.

[Bombers798891]

So I was thinking...we just completed the 10th year of the modern E8 last season (The autobid started in 2004 I'm almost positive). What do you guys think about doing an all-time E8 team? I'm willing to take nominations—just PM me guys—and put everything together, and if there's ever a time where I'm stuck between two guys, I'll throw up a vote on the boards. Here are my thoughts for the rules, but I'd love to get suggestions for modifications:

1. First, Second-team, and honorable mention only. We're going d3football.com rules here guys

2. On offense, five linemen, one quarterback, and one running back are required on each team, but everything else may vary. I want to see who you guys think are the best players, and if the 7th best WR is better than the 3rd best TE, well, so be it. I'm also creating an athlete position (see rule 3) On defense, I'm going to stick with a 7-man front, but I will switch between a 3-4 or 4-3 if needed. Additionally, I'm not worrying about distinctions between T/G/C or OLB/ILB

3. This one is controversial, so let me know what you think: Salisbury and Springfield "quarterbacks" are going to be judged by their passing stats only for QB purposes, but are eligible for athlete positions with the whole package considered. Yes, drop-back QBs can run and RBs can catch passes, but I'm not going to compare apples to oranges and try to figure out if Chris Sharpe or Dan Griffin deserves to make the team over Tim Bailey or Tom Secky. 

4. You're judged by your E8 career only, but pre-auto bid E8 careers are grandfathered in. For example:
—Pierre Garcon only gets his 2004 season considered
—Fisher, Ithaca, Alfred, Utica, and Hartwick guys get everything from 2002 on.
—Springfield guys get 2004-2011, and the same rules apply to Salisbury and Frostburg

5. You're judged on talent, not just counting numbers. Garcon may have only played 9 games in the E8, but I'll listen to arguments that he proved himself to be a better player in those nine games than say, Tom Vossler.

6. Longevity will tip the scales. As I said, I'll listen to arguments on Garcon, but I'm not necessarily going to slide him ahead of a guy who was less talented, but impacted the E8 for longer.

7. Team success is not worth extra credit. A player's entire body of work (playoffs included) is considered, but the fact that St. John Fisher made two deep playoff runs with Rob Kramer at quarterback while Jason Boltus never won a playoff game is irrelevant.

8. I will have separate KR/PR positions, and only the numbers specific to KR/PR are eligible for consideration to that position. That said, if a guy is good in both, he can be named to both roles. Also, a guy can be a 1st-team kick returner and a second-team punt returner, because this is not double-counting

[boobyhasgameyo]

Fisher game is being aired on time warner cable for all you sports fans out there. 

[boobyhasgameyo]

After the 1st half it is safe to say that Utica cannot stop Fisher's running game, nor can they run the ball themselves.  Fisher's passing game has been off today.  But much like the game against Brockport, when you can't stop our running backs, we don't really need the air show. 

At the half

Fisher 21
Utica 0

Fisher is also out gaining Utica badly in total yards.  I think Utica only had 5 yards total after the 1st quarter. 

[82 cardinals]

does anyone have anything on Ithaca