FB: Empire 8

[boobyhasgameyo]

Every region has the paper tigers. Someone has to weed them out. Is it SJF sometimes for the East? Sure, about every third year they clean a few out. Nice job. But most years someone cleans out the MIAA, MWC, NACC, ODAC, USASC, and UMAC champs from the other regions. Sure the East has more of that type of clean up than the other regions tend to, but every region has them. Someone has to clean them up even when they are undefeated.

You're getting so close to my point now!  The one last part to my original statement is that conferences like MWC with undefeated teams won't make it to later rounds.  The east teams, if you replace a 2 loss E8 team like a Fisher, with a less polished New England team with a better record...well those east paper tigers will beat them and continue to advance.  Now they are in the elite 8 with the whole nation watching.  An undefeated North team vs an Undefeated East team (as opposed to perhaps an E8 team who has already lost to east teams).....the nation awaits, they will all watch and use it as a measuring stick between undefeateds.  Paper tiger goes down hard.  Nation overreacts without analyzing the entire landscape of the region. 

And we have arrived at what I was getting at. 

[jknezek]

Every region has the paper tigers. Someone has to weed them out. Is it SJF sometimes for the East? Sure, about every third year they clean a few out. Nice job. But most years someone cleans out the MIAA, MWC, NACC, ODAC, USASC, and UMAC champs from the other regions. Sure the East has more of that type of clean up than the other regions tend to, but every region has them. Someone has to clean them up even when they are undefeated.

You're getting so close to my point now!  The one last part to my original statement is that conferences like MWC with undefeated teams won't make it to later rounds.  The east teams, if you replace a 2 loss E8 team like a Fisher, with a less polished New England team with a better record...well those east paper tigers will beat them and continue to advance.  Now they are in the elite 8 with the whole nation watching.  An undefeated North team vs an Undefeated East team (as opposed to perhaps an E8 team who has already lost to east teams).....the nation awaits, they will all watch and use it as a measuring stick between undefeateds.  Paper tiger goes down hard.  Nation overreacts without analyzing the entire landscape of the region. 

And we have arrived at what I was getting at.

If that's where you want to hang your hat, go ahead. I think it's kind of an odd point to make. If I'm understanding what you are saying is the East Region is weak and they show that when they hit the second or third round EXCEPT every 3 or so years when SJF comes along and makes it to the third round and gets shown the door by a less embarrassing score?

[AUPepBand]

Pep was privileged to see his Saxons weed out a paper tiger with SUNY-Maritime (10-0) in 2010. It was 50-0 by halftime and the band had already played the fight song 16 times. What a workout that was!

That was the past. But getting back to the present and the near future, Pep expects to see some Angry Birds at Yunevich Stadium Saterday and is exited to see how tough those boys are. BTW, Congratulations to one-time Saxon linebacker Nick Gatto on the birth of a baby girl, Scarlett Moon Gatto, 6lbs 7oz, born on Nov. 6, 2014. Life is good.

On Saxon Warriors!

[Bombers798891]

Do you think that adds more fuel to the flame when saying "oh look how weak the east is, that's the best team they've got and we smoked them."  .

First of all, according to the Week 4 poll on this very site, Fisher was the best team the East had. And it was Fisher who provided the fuel to the fire that the East was weak because, just three weeks after one of the big boys blew Salisbury off the field, the East's supposed best team showed the whole country that they couldn't do what one of the big boys could, because apparently, a decade isn't long enough to figure out how to defend a triple option.

Second, whatever Hobart, or the MAC winner, or Framingham does against one of the big boys in the playoffs this year will be better than what Fisher did because barring some miracle, Fisher's going to be taking their "exposer of the overrated" badge to an ECAC game.

Honestly, hearing you talk about how we should all be thankful for Fisher's presence in the playoffs is really annoying considering Fisher's only two playoff appearances in the last seven years have come about because other teams helped clear the path for their two-loss squads to get a Pool C. You act like the region should be so grateful that Fisher cleared away these lousy East teams in the playoffs, and Fisher can't even write their own ticket to the dance.

[bman]

Do you think that adds more fuel to the flame when saying "oh look how weak the east is, that's the best team they've got and we smoked them."  .

First of all, according to the Week 4 poll on this very site, Fisher was the best team the East had. And it was Fisher who provided the fuel to the fire that the East was weak because, just three weeks after one of the big boys blew Salisbury off the field, the East's supposed best team showed the whole country that they couldn't do what one of the big boys could, because apparently, a decade isn't long enough to figure out how to defend a triple option.

Second, whatever Hobart, or the MAC winner, or Framingham does against one of the big boys in the playoffs this year will be better than what Fisher did because barring some miracle, Fisher's going to be taking their "exposer of the overrated" badge to an ECAC game.

Honestly, hearing you talk about how we should all be thankful for Fisher's presence in the playoffs is really annoying considering Fisher's only two playoff appearances in the last seven years have come about because other teams helped clear the path for their two-loss squads to get a Pool C. You act like the region should be so grateful that Fisher cleared away these lousy East teams in the playoffs, and Fisher can't even write their own ticket to the dance.

And let's look at one of those "fraud" East teams...2012 Widener.    Everyone around the MAC knew that WU had serious flaws.  They could not run the ball...period.   They did not stop the run well either...
Yet...
How well do you think it would go for Fisher if you went into the MU game knowing you couldn't/weren't going to run the ball...figure it would be pretty ugly huh?  Well thats what happened.

Yet is WU supposed to apologize they beat everyone put in front of them, including dismantling a Salisbury team that beat ST John Fisher earlier in the year...
Sorry, don't buy the logic...

[jmcozenlaw]

Gentleman - This will all become a moot point next year (it has been a moot point for years to me) when our true (not NCAA spun) Eastern brother, Wesley, comes into the NJAC. We will have a monster to cheer for after we all get our clocks cleaned by UMU or Wesley. Cheer for Wesley this year as they are in the East.............not in the South (thanks ITH)

As UW-W continues to play recruiting games and offers in-state tuition for out-of-state athletes, NOBODY in the East (not even Wesley) will take them down. They are larger and better funded than the DII Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference and actually look more like a Patriot League team (Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Holy Cross). I could care less about ANY eastern team competes against them. It is one incredibly unlevel playing field!! 

My feeling has always been the crowning achievement of a season is to win your conference, against like minded, like sized institutions............anything else is gravy. Could you see the Centennial Conference schools "selling out" all in the name of football. Not a chance in the world. I'd rather go to Johns Hopkins/Ursinus/Muhlenberg and win my conference, then go to UW-W and win a national championship......that they would have won without me anyway!!!

Typing this from a laptop while drinking beer tailgating before the Eagles game..............with friends from Delaware.......my "eastern" friends

The beer is going down smooth

[Bartman]

Good luck if a team like Framingham State makes it in.  You watch what will happen when the undefeated MAC champ or Hobart plays one of the big boys this year. 

They'll lose to them, just like Fisher does.

Seriously man, talk about a high-and-mighty opinion. Fisher's got as many wins over the big boys as anyone else in the East does. Here have been Fisher's games against the "big boys":

2006: Lost 26-14 to Mount
2007: Lost 52-10 to Mount.
2008: Lost 33-3 to Mount
2009: Lost 52-10 to Mount
2011: Lost 45-10 to St. Thomas
2013: Lost 45-23 to MHB

You've got zero wins, one great showing, one good showing, and four butt-kickings. Is that better than the East as a whole? That probably depends on what you do with Wesley and Salisbury but honestly, other than the 2006 game, none of these performances changed the perception of the East as a whole. Heck, even after 2006, it took us all of one regular season to get Mount shipped our way come playoff time.

So let's not act like Fisher's made some stand for the East region. They're sent packing like everyone else.
[/quote

When you are down and out something always turns up - and it is usually the noses of your friends.

Orson Welles

Death from friendly regional fire is hurtful..

Let's admit it, the East officially needs Wesley in the NJAC and we will all feel better about the regional comparisons. Sure Fisher had that one game against a really good JC team last year, but I watched that game and the 5 JC turnovers were pretty sloppy play, especially the 2 interceptions on the last 2 drives. Don't get me wrong, I think Fisher has a solid program and I would love to see them in the playoffs again to avenge last years Hobart loss...no bitching here, Fisher was by far the better team that day....  and it is still pissing me off... (and stop the Cardinal chirps "oh we are really good in the playoffs  and Hobart sucks with the weak schedule" blah, blah...).  The bottom line is that Football gets resources and "admissions attention" at the top D3 programs and the East is  competitive up to the top 10( I personally think Hobart is overrated in the polls this year, but hey, we need the help with recruiting...). So, I hope Fisher gets back in(watch out for Alfred) and we will see if this  team can have two nice wins and get smacked by the Mount, UWWW ,UMHB or Wesley.....if  Fisher doesn't get in , I hope Hobart or Ithaca can get to the "Charge of the Light Brigade " round where we can make a valiant effort against superior fire power...we have all seen this "Ground Hog Day" movie.....but I don't think it detracts from  some great Saturday competitions in the E8 and the Liberty League...although,I'd rather end the season with an East championship bracket between the best conferences in the East because it really sucks when you finally get clobbered...and any of us will get clobbered...and it doesn't mean s**t if the E8 is better than the LL in the end...Thanks for getting me  down in the middle of an undefeated season 

[ExTartanPlayer]

Do you think that adds more fuel to the flame when saying "oh look how weak the east is, that's the best team they've got and we smoked them."  .

First of all, according to the Week 4 poll on this very site, Fisher was the best team the East had. And it was Fisher who provided the fuel to the fire that the East was weak because, just three weeks after one of the big boys blew Salisbury off the field, the East's supposed best team showed the whole country that they couldn't do what one of the big boys could, because apparently, a decade isn't long enough to figure out how to defend a triple option.

Second, whatever Hobart, or the MAC winner, or Framingham does against one of the big boys in the playoffs this year will be better than what Fisher did because barring some miracle, Fisher's going to be taking their "exposer of the overrated" badge to an ECAC game.

Honestly, hearing you talk about how we should all be thankful for Fisher's presence in the playoffs is really annoying considering Fisher's only two playoff appearances in the last seven years have come about because other teams helped clear the path for their two-loss squads to get a Pool C. You act like the region should be so grateful that Fisher cleared away these lousy East teams in the playoffs, and Fisher can't even write their own ticket to the dance.

Pretty much agreed with this.  I have one more note to add...from a few pages back:

"Good luck if a team like Framingham State makes it in."

I really don't get these continued cheap shots being lobbed at Framingham State because they used to play in the NEFC which used to completely suck.  Last year Framingham State lost two games: 29-19 vs. NJAC champion Rowan and 20-17 in playoff round one vs. Ithaca (both road games).  2013 Ithaca beat 2013 St. John Fisher by the same three points they did 2013 Framingham State.  Yes, the Empire 8 is a better conference than the MASCAC and probably will be for a long time.  That doesn't mean Framingham State is incapable of playing on the level as Empire 8 teams.

The rest of this conversation has been completely exhausted and I generally fall on Bombers' and jknezek's side of things in their last few posts. 

I think booby is arguing against a position that no one is really taking (the strawman "an undefeated team from the East getting blown out in the quarters hurts the perception of the East more than a two-loss Fisher team getting blown out in the quarters" - does anyone who seriously follows D3 football think this way?) using evidence that doesn't really exist (the idea that Fisher is the white knight who can play these bigger, badder teams to closer margins than Hobart and others, which hasn't happened since 2006 as previously detailed).

[wesleydad]

That was fun to read.  Lesser teams who go undefeated in their league have done what they set out to do.  Win the league.  The fact that they get into the dance is a chance to play another game.  I don't think they expect to win against the better teams in D3 nor do I think they care about it.  I can tell you that I gained a ton of respect for the Mt Ida coaching staff as I watched them continued to coach and encourage their team during the beat down they got from Wesley a couple of years back.  Total class all the way.  No excuses or complaints about the score.  Just enjoyed the experience of playing 1 of the big boys.  I am glad that teams like that get in and it is not a 32 best teams type of thing, then it becomes like the D1 where only the power 5 conferences can get into the show.  It takes away some of the suspense, but as has been stated before, there are only 3 or 4 teams that look like they can win it all in most years.

[boobyhasgameyo]

My point was never about Fisher playing them closer, it was Fisher eliminating them before they laid an egg as an undefeated east team on a huge level with everyone watching.  I think that people would naturally put more weight on an undefeated matchup and what that means towards the perception of a region than a team that has lost in region a few times, but I generally find ExTartan's points to be the most lucid and thoughtful around here.  Legit thought once he was against me that it's probably time to stop.  So if I'm fighting an uphill battle against everyone, I'll say I'm wrong and root away for the east.  Which is what I would have done anyway.  The only reason I kept bringing up Fisher, is because to me they have been the best in region example of a team taking out some of the overly inflated teams in recent years.  Rowan in 2004 was another example and Pep's mention of Maritime would have been an absolute perfect example if that were a second round matchup while fighting for a ticket to the 3rd round instead of first to 2nd. 

Anyways, apologies for upsetting so many people.  At least it gave some spice on a Monday and some pages of reading material.  Throwback post day. 

[Bartman]

Fisher No.25 in Coaches poll and Ithaca unranked

[Bartman]

My point was never about Fisher playing them closer, it was Fisher eliminating them before they laid an egg as an undefeated east team on a huge level with everyone watching.  I think that people would naturally put more weight on an undefeated matchup and what that means towards the perception of a region than a team that has lost in region a few times, but I generally find ExTartan's points to be the most lucid and thoughtful around here.  Legit thought once he was against me that it's probably time to stop.  So if I'm fighting an uphill battle against everyone, I'll say I'm wrong and root away for the east.  Which is what I would have done anyway.  The only reason I kept bringing up Fisher, is because to me they have been the best in region example of a team taking out some of the overly inflated teams in recent years.  Rowan in 2004 was another example and Pep's mention of Maritime would have been an absolute perfect example if that were a second round matchup while fighting for a ticket to the 3rd round instead of first to 2nd. 

Anyways, apologies for upsetting so many people.  At least it gave some spice on a Monday and some pages of reading material.  Throwback post day.

At least there is life on the E8 board and some very knowledgeable participants....even the Fisher loyalists

[ExTartanPlayer]

I think that people would naturally put more weight on an undefeated matchup and what that means towards the perception of a region than a team that has lost in region a few times...

I get where you were trying to go, I just don't think it held much water.  To the few dozen people who read these boards and think about Division 3 football on the national scale, I surmise that St. Thomas blowing out 10-2 Fisher in 2011 and St. Thomas blowing out 12-0 Hobart in 2012 were probably viewed about the same in terms of what they said about East-vs-other-region strength; in either case it was the last Eastern team standing getting blown out by a MIAC team, and the fact that it was an undefeated Hobart as opposed to a 2-loss Fisher didn't really matter.  By that time, I don't think (most) people are paying that much attention to "clash of undefeateds" vs. "the last West team standing vs. the last East team standing" to determine regional supremacy.

FWIW: Wesley got absolutely obliterated by UWW early in their rise to prominence, and I think it took some of the UWW fans awhile to gain much respect for Wesley's program after back to back playoff curb-stompings.  Many WIAC fans probably saw those scores and thought "that was the best team left standing by now?  Yeesh, how bad is the rest of the South region if those guys made it here?" back in 2005-2006.  I never think it makes much sense to draw conclusions about an entire region based on a single result or two, and this stuff CAN change.  I wasn't around in the 1990's (well, I was, but I was learning how to add and multiply and cool stuff like that) but I've read enough to see D3 will always be shifting a little bit.  Sooner or later someone's going to topple those Purple dudes.

FWIW #2: I think most fans realize that the East as a whole isn't much different from the other regions, but the creme de la creme of the other regions has generally been better than the East's best.  The Empire 8 stands with any conference in D3 in terms of top-to-bottom strength, and the NJAC (despite a pretty bad year this year) has had its share of very good/deep seasons (note that Wesley has lost to two different NJAC teams in the last four years, both times in a season where they gave Mount Union a scare in deep playoff games.  There are plenty of "good" teams in the East, teams that can play with the John Carroll and Wittenberg and Wabash strata in the #10-20ish range.  But somebody's gotta take down a bear sooner or later.

I generally find ExTartan's points to be the most lucid and thoughtful around here.  Legit thought once he was against me that it's probably time to stop.

If I've become the standard around here, we're in trouble.

So if I'm fighting an uphill battle against everyone, I'll say I'm wrong and root away for the east.

I don't think it's so much "wrong" as it was supporting a curiously specific niche viewpoint that no one was really arguing against. 

Oh, and also, stop acting like Framingham State and teams from the MASCAC/NEFC/ECFC are all awful.  Sure, there was a time that the best team in those leagues would have lost to the worst team in the Empire 8 and Liberty League, but that time is gone.  Top to bottom, they still aren't up to par, but Framingham has earned their spurs (IMO) as a respectable contender over the last few years.  Not a powerhouse, but neither are they an embarrassment to the region as a playoff rep.

[sjfcards]

Do you think that adds more fuel to the flame when saying "oh look how weak the east is, that's the best team they've got and we smoked them."  .

First of all, according to the Week 4 poll on this very site, Fisher was the best team the East had. And it was Fisher who provided the fuel to the fire that the East was weak because, just three weeks after one of the big boys blew Salisbury off the field, the East's supposed best team showed the whole country that they couldn't do what one of the big boys could, because apparently, a decade isn't long enough to figure out how to defend a triple option.

Second, whatever Hobart, or the MAC winner, or Framingham does against one of the big boys in the playoffs this year will be better than what Fisher did because barring some miracle, Fisher's going to be taking their "exposer of the overrated" badge to an ECAC game.

Honestly, hearing you talk about how we should all be thankful for Fisher's presence in the playoffs is really annoying considering Fisher's only two playoff appearances in the last seven years have come about because other teams helped clear the path for their two-loss squads to get a Pool C. You act like the region should be so grateful that Fisher cleared away these lousy East teams in the playoffs, and Fisher can't even write their own ticket to the dance.

I don't think the point is that Fisher is the savior, but more that a 2 loss team that would beat an undefeated team from another conference is better for the East as a whole. It has seemed to have been the case that the last two playoff teams from Fisher (both with 2 losses) was a better representative for the region as a whole as an undefeated team from another conference. The evidence is Fisher against Del Val three years ago and Hobart last year. Using those examples, I understand what Booby is saying. Fisher has helped the East Region when they are in the playoffs.

Take Fisher out of the equation and put any other team and the larger point would still hold true. If Fisher had lived up to the hype this year and gone undefeated, as far as the East Region perception goes, a 2 loss IC team is probably a better representative than a Framingham State of what the upper level of play can be in the east. It is not a knock on Framingham but I think several people feel IC is a better team.

It is the same argument as the SEC vs ACC/PAC 12/Big 10. The problem for a team like Fisher (who I would argue is better than several playoff teams this year) is that the selection process shouldn't and doesn't work that way. They do not deserve to get in based on 2 losses in games they should have won, IMHO (at least the SU game). No they don't deserve to get in, and no other team or conference should apologize for getting in over them. But if you use the playoffs as a way to measure the east against other regions wouldn't you want the best teams representing?

[Boxer7806]

Love reading this stuff. Im a nefc/mascac guy and even though the leagues arent as terrible as they use to be we need a win to merit any consideration as a legit playoff team. Framingham infuriates me because as a bear fan they have beat us for the past 5-6 years but also because they just cant get over the hump with some very good teams. That playoff game vs cortland 2 years back, they ran the ball all over the best run d in the empire 8. But they throw 4 picks including two in the red zone to lose by three. Last year they lead ithaca by 14 at the half and lose by three in a game where they looked like the better team. Well at least for a half. This year they play rowan and never give themselves a chance with 6 picks and a kick return fumble for a touchdown on their first touch of the game. I watched the game and in all honesty, framingham is just as talented if not more. But I cant give our league credit if we keep letting good opportunities slip away. Hell bridgewater played widener great for a half, looked like they could beat them and laid an absolute egg in the second half. Until our league wins a damn game then guys like booby and the rest SHOULD look down as us as inferior, even if recent results suggest otherwise. We cant blast on fisher for not taking the next step as an elite power in the east or discredit their own close calls against the powers and give our league credit for their own close calls and call them a viable playoff team. Bottom line is framingham/mit needs to get a win this year against an ithaca to be given anytype of merit as a legit playoff squad going forward.