FB: Empire 8

[Bombers798891]

Hobart @ Ithaca 9/19/15

Fantastic. These two teams should be playing more frequently. I kind of wish they'd drop Union though. I liked it when IC played the Pennsylvania schools (Lycoming, Kings, Moravian). It was nice to get them back for a bit, but I feel like it's run its course.

This will settle a lot of "what if" talk too.  I like it, these two schools should be natural rivalries, and should help crowds, and maybe recruiting.

I think it makes a lot of sense for the schools to play, but I hope it's not a long-term thing, especially since Union doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

I'm strange in that I like variety to a schedule. From a pure fan perspective, playing the same teams year-in, year-out gets boring, and it's interesting seeing different teams with different styles of play. One of my favorite IC games ever was against Huntington in 2006. I'd hate to see the same 10 games every year, natural rivalries or not.

[Jonny Utah]

Hobart @ Ithaca 9/19/15

Fantastic. These two teams should be playing more frequently. I kind of wish they'd drop Union though. I liked it when IC played the Pennsylvania schools (Lycoming, Kings, Moravian). It was nice to get them back for a bit, but I feel like it's run its course.

This will settle a lot of "what if" talk too.  I like it, these two schools should be natural rivalries, and should help crowds, and maybe recruiting.

I think it makes a lot of sense for the schools to play, but I hope it's not a long-term thing, especially since Union doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

I'm strange in that I like variety to a schedule. From a pure fan perspective, playing the same teams year-in, year-out gets boring, and it's interesting seeing different teams with different styles of play. One of my favorite IC games ever was against Huntington in 2006. I'd hate to see the same 10 games every year, natural rivalries or not.

I like playing different teams too, but with the new trend of getting large conferences, non-league games might be harder to get. 

I think it would be cool to go play a Midwest or California team too.

[ITH radio]

I also like seeing new teams. While I get why Dickinson has stayed on Hobart's schedule for 20+ seasons, it feels like its time to end that series.

Fisher has done the best job of hitting the road of any "east" team IMO, and it's paid dividends for them for sure.

[Upstate]

Fisher opens up the year on the road at Thomas More and I believe that this year the John Carrol home and home starts...

[Bombers798891]

I also like seeing new teams. While I get why Dickinson has stayed on Hobart's schedule for 20+ seasons, it feels like its time to end that series.

Fisher has done the best job of hitting the road of any "east" team IMO, and it's paid dividends for them for sure.

Well, I think it's more like Fisher achieved a level of success that's allowed them to be a little more bold in who they took on. Prior to that awesome 2006 run, their OOC schedule wasn't anything eye-opening: King's, Rochester (an obvious rival), and Mt. Ida, a cupcake who was taking on the dregs of other conferences at the time and losing by 40 points to Fisher.

It's since then we've really seen them go after some great OOC teams—Mount, Salisbury, Hobart, W&J, Otterbein, TM, JC. When you have a team with the mindset that they want to (and can) compete nationally, that's what you get. Everyone else in the East seems content to just be the best team in the "East"

[Pat Coleman]

Fisher opens up the year on the road at Thomas More and I believe that this year the John Carrol home and home starts...

Get those Catholic school rivalries going. Good matchups, too.

[Bombers798891]

Fisher opens up the year on the road at Thomas More and I believe that this year the John Carrol home and home starts...

As a fan, I think home and home's are the way to go. It's just fun to see your team taking on new challenges, seeing a different style of football, players who you haven't heard of. 

[Bombers798891]

Got bored, so came up with my Top 10 teams of the E8 autobid era (2004-2014), just to talk E8 football again. I'll post the 10 in my next post, but here's a rough primer:

1. I had 20 teams on my rough list, and at the bottom, it got pretty close, so if you're wondering why some team wasn't on there, they were probably close.

2. Postseason play does not determine everything. It's a good tiebreaker, but I value a 10-game regular season more than a 1/2 game postseason when determining overall value. Three of the top 10 teams missed the playoffs, and some teams that made the second round missed it.

3. You needed 8 wins minimum. Sorry, don't care how tough the schedule was, 7-3 aint cutting it.

[Bombers798891]

My all-time E8 top 10:

1. 2006 St. John Fisher- (12-2, +337 point-differential, made national semis) The no-brainer pick for #1. The Cardinals had the best player in E8 history (Mark Robinson) and were the only E8 team that you could legitimately say had a shot at the Stagg Bowl. Insane talent everywhere. Bonus points for actually figuring out the triple option, something that has killed Fisher constantly.

2. 2011 Salisbury- (11-2, +313 point differential, made national quarters) This team obliterated the E8, never getting a serious challenge. Their humiliation of a good Alfred team was one of the most epic E8 beatdowns ever.

3. 2007 Fisher- (11-2, +268 point differential, made national quarters). Higher than some Fisher guys may put them, but they were the best team in the deepest the E8 has ever been, and stomped a lot of teams before getting buzzsawed up in Alliance.

4. 2006 Springfield- (10-2, +193 point differential, made 2nd round). This team is underrated in E8 history. Hung 55 on the #1 team on this list, and gave them a great fight in the playoffs. Chris Sharpe was unreal, and had they not run into Fisher in round 2, could have done a lot of damage. Further proof that the triple option will never work at Butterfield Stadium.

5. 2004 Fisher- (10-2, +178 point differential, made 2nd round) The team that started it all for the Cardinals. (Sort of) beat Ithaca in the best game in E8 history, and lost a heartbreaker in the 2nd round. Lost to Norwich, starting Cardinals' trend of inexplicably losing random regular season games.

6. 2004 Ithaca (9-2 +270 point differential, missed playoffs) Call me a homer, I don't care. Mike Welch swears this was his best team ever. Had 8 wins by 24 points or more, and blew second half leads in their only two losses.

7. 2010 Fisher (9-2, +210 point differential, missed playoffs) The Fisher guys love this team, led by one of the most prolific offenses in E8 history. But the defense took two weeks off, and their two losses were not as close as 2004 Ithaca's.

8. 2013 Fisher (10-3, +135 point differential, made national quarters) A great postseason run makes up for a kind of underwhelming regular season. Honestly, Fisher sleepwalked through most of the year, needing to squeak out a 1-point win at home over a 1-9 Frostburg. But two really impressive road playoff wins and a decent showing at UMHB has to count for something right?

9. 2010 Alfred (10-3, +171 point differential, made national quarters) Why do I have them below a Fisher team they not only finished ahead of, but beat? Because they managed to lose twice to mediocre out-of-conference opponents, and their two playoff wins included one over a team that would have finished at the bottom of the E8.

10. 2005 Fisher (8-3 +245 point differential, missed playoffs) It was a toss-up between this and the 2014 version of the underachieving Cardinals, but this team got the edge for three reasons: 1. Losing on the road to Josh Felicetti is a lot more excusable than losing at home to Tom Dempsey, 2. When in doubt, take the team Mark Robinson was on, 3. I refuse to reward a near decade-long inability to stop the triple option.

[D3MAFAN]

My all-time E8 top 10:

1. 2006 St. John Fisher- (12-2, +337 point-differential, made national semis) The no-brainer pick for #1. The Cardinals had the best player in E8 history (Mark Robinson) and were the only E8 team that you could legitimately say had a shot at the Stagg Bowl. Insane talent everywhere. Bonus points for actually figuring out the triple option, something that has killed Fisher constantly.

2. 2011 Salisbury- (11-2, +313 point differential, made national quarters) This team obliterated the E8, never getting a serious challenge. Their humiliation of a good Alfred team was one of the most epic E8 beatdowns ever.

3. 2007 Fisher- (11-2, +268 point differential, made national quarters). Higher than some Fisher guys may put them, but they were the best team in the deepest the E8 has ever been, and stomped a lot of teams before getting buzzsawed up in Alliance.

4. 2006 Springfield- (10-2, +193 point differential, made 2nd round). This team is underrated in E8 history. Hung 55 on the #1 team on this list, and gave them a great fight in the playoffs. Chris Sharpe was unreal, and had they not run into Fisher in round 2, could have done a lot of damage. Further proof that the triple option will never work at Butterfield Stadium.

5. 2004 Fisher- (10-2, +178 point differential, made 2nd round) The team that started it all for the Cardinals. (Sort of) beat Ithaca in the best game in E8 history, and lost a heartbreaker in the 2nd round. Lost to Norwich, starting Cardinals' trend of inexplicably losing random regular season games.

6. 2004 Ithaca (9-2 +270 point differential, missed playoffs) Call me a homer, I don't care. Mike Welch swears this was his best team ever. Had 8 wins by 24 points or more, and blew second half leads in their only two losses.

7. 2010 Fisher (9-2, +210 point differential, missed playoffs) The Fisher guys love this team, led by one of the most prolific offenses in E8 history. But the defense took two weeks off, and their two losses were not as close as 2004 Ithaca's.

8. 2013 Fisher (10-3, +135 point differential, made national quarters) A great postseason run makes up for a kind of underwhelming regular season. Honestly, Fisher sleepwalked through most of the year, needing to squeak out a 1-point win at home over a 1-9 Frostburg. But two really impressive road playoff wins and a decent showing at UMHB has to count for something right?

9. 2010 Alfred (10-3, +171 point differential, made national quarters) Why do I have them below a Fisher team they not only finished ahead of, but beat? Because they managed to lose twice to mediocre out-of-conference opponents, and their two playoff wins included one over a team that would have finished at the bottom of the E8.

10. 2005 Fisher (8-3 +245 point differential, missed playoffs) It was a toss-up between this and the 2014 version of the underachieving Cardinals, but this team got the edge for three reasons: 1. Losing on the road to Josh Felicetti is a lot more excusable than losing at home to Tom Dempsey, 2. When in doubt, take the team Mark Robinson was on, 3. I refuse to reward a near decade-long inability to stop the triple option.

I know that many (including myself) get upset with the option style offenses, however two out of the top 4 are option (wing-T) style offenses with that of Salisbury and Springfield , both teams did wonders with the athletes that had, big props to them. However, as many already know, to beat the big dawgs, you have to be balance or be able to adjust.

[sjfcards]

My all-time E8 top 10:

1. 2006 St. John Fisher- (12-2, +337 point-differential, made national semis) The no-brainer pick for #1. The Cardinals had the best player in E8 history (Mark Robinson) and were the only E8 team that you could legitimately say had a shot at the Stagg Bowl. Insane talent everywhere. Bonus points for actually figuring out the triple option, something that has killed Fisher constantly.

2. 2011 Salisbury- (11-2, +313 point differential, made national quarters) This team obliterated the E8, never getting a serious challenge. Their humiliation of a good Alfred team was one of the most epic E8 beatdowns ever.

3. 2007 Fisher- (11-2, +268 point differential, made national quarters). Higher than some Fisher guys may put them, but they were the best team in the deepest the E8 has ever been, and stomped a lot of teams before getting buzzsawed up in Alliance.

4. 2006 Springfield- (10-2, +193 point differential, made 2nd round). This team is underrated in E8 history. Hung 55 on the #1 team on this list, and gave them a great fight in the playoffs. Chris Sharpe was unreal, and had they not run into Fisher in round 2, could have done a lot of damage. Further proof that the triple option will never work at Butterfield Stadium.

5. 2004 Fisher- (10-2, +178 point differential, made 2nd round) The team that started it all for the Cardinals. (Sort of) beat Ithaca in the best game in E8 history, and lost a heartbreaker in the 2nd round. Lost to Norwich, starting Cardinals' trend of inexplicably losing random regular season games.

6. 2004 Ithaca (9-2 +270 point differential, missed playoffs) Call me a homer, I don't care. Mike Welch swears this was his best team ever. Had 8 wins by 24 points or more, and blew second half leads in their only two losses.

7. 2010 Fisher (9-2, +210 point differential, missed playoffs) The Fisher guys love this team, led by one of the most prolific offenses in E8 history. But the defense took two weeks off, and their two losses were not as close as 2004 Ithaca's.

8. 2013 Fisher (10-3, +135 point differential, made national quarters) A great postseason run makes up for a kind of underwhelming regular season. Honestly, Fisher sleepwalked through most of the year, needing to squeak out a 1-point win at home over a 1-9 Frostburg. But two really impressive road playoff wins and a decent showing at UMHB has to count for something right?

9. 2010 Alfred (10-3, +171 point differential, made national quarters) Why do I have them below a Fisher team they not only finished ahead of, but beat? Because they managed to lose twice to mediocre out-of-conference opponents, and their two playoff wins included one over a team that would have finished at the bottom of the E8.

10. 2005 Fisher (8-3 +245 point differential, missed playoffs) It was a toss-up between this and the 2014 version of the underachieving Cardinals, but this team got the edge for three reasons: 1. Losing on the road to Josh Felicetti is a lot more excusable than losing at home to Tom Dempsey, 2. When in doubt, take the team Mark Robinson was on, 3. I refuse to reward a near decade-long inability to stop the triple option.

This post in a nut shell is what is so frustrating as a Fisher fan. I don't disagree with any of these picks (content or order). Fisher has 6 of top 10 teams in recent E8 history, and during that time has won 1 league title. Hard to figure out.

This post also got me wondering where you think the 2004 IC team would have ended up had Stepnick's totally legitimate interception been called back, and IC went on to beat Fisher?

[Bombers798891]

This post also got me wondering where you think the 2004 IC team would have ended up had Stepnick's totally legitimate interception been called back, and IC went on to beat Fisher?

They'd be #2, behind that Fisher team. I believe to this day that that team was a lot better than everyone remembers, and I'll give you some reasons:

1. Jamie Donovan was never really 100% healthy after early 2005, but in late 2004, he was a total beast. Everyone forgets this, but it took him half the year to be named the starter, but look at his per game rushing totals the last 6 games of the season: 218, 170, 140, 39, 203, 167. He was a different back that season (and the start of 2005) than he was later

2. Ithaca had so many passing options its fullback finished with more catches and yards than its first-team, all-american tight end

3. Defensively, they allowed fewer than 13 points a game, got after the passer (30 sacks) and made plays (36 turnovers)

4. I'm not saying it would have made a difference, but IC's best corner was hurt and missed the Fisher game...

I just think that IC team was loaded everywhere—though Felicetti was uneven that year. They beat Fisher, they win at least two playoff games that season, IMO.

As for Fisher's inability to win the conference, it's kind of amazing to think a team that dominant in the E8 won their only conference title a decade ago in part thanks to what was clearly a blown call. My serious, no-trolling theory is that Fisher's identity under Vosburgh is so ingrained in being the underdog, the upstart if you will, they just don't handle being favorites.

I mean, look at that 2004 team. They beat an insanely loaded Ithaca, beat an 8-2 Springfield by 21, win an NCAA playoff game by 28, but they beat a 4-6 Kings by just 7, a 4-6 Rochester by 4, and they lose to freaking Norwich—which should never, ever have happened, and I don't care that Garcon was on that team.

Everything about Fisher feels this way. Even in 2006, that playoff run included a revenge win over Springfield, and a win over Rowan—who was still the bigger name at that point. It was a great team, but I bet there were plenty of doubters before both those game

In 2010, they lay an egg while undefeated against Alfred, who lost to freaking Rochester the next week.

In 2011, the team spends the whole regular season sleepwalking and then goes on the road to beat a 10-0 Hopkins and an 11-0 Del Valley

2013? You guys were resigned to the ECAC's and then of course you go on the road, hold John Carroll to something like 25 points below their season average, and then beat an undefeated Hobart.

Just look at the IC rivalry. You have the upstart win in 2004, followed by the loss. So in 2006, you've still got people who will say that the win was a fluke. So Fisher takes them out. Then in 2007, you shut up the "you never win at Butterfield crowd." In 2008, you miss the playoffs but hand Ithaca a 31-point loss, despite the fact that Ithaca was a top-10 team that year.

But the second Ithaca gets historically lousy? Then, suddenly playoff-bound Fisher needs OT to beat the only IC team with a losing record in the last 40 years. The next thing you know, Ithaca's beating you to win the conference thanks to kick returns and trick plays.

Fisher just handles the underdog role better. That's not an insult, though it's not really a compliment either.

[Bartman]

This post also got me wondering where you think the 2004 IC team would have ended up had Stepnick's totally legitimate interception been called back, and IC went on to beat Fisher?

They'd be #2, behind that Fisher team. I believe to this day that that team was a lot better than everyone remembers, and I'll give you some reasons:

1. Jamie Donovan was never really 100% healthy after early 2005, but in late 2004, he was a total beast. Everyone forgets this, but it took him half the year to be named the starter, but look at his per game rushing totals the last 6 games of the season: 218, 170, 140, 39, 203, 167. He was a different back that season (and the start of 2005) than he was later

2. Ithaca had so many passing options its fullback finished with more catches and yards than its first-team, all-american tight end

3. Defensively, they allowed fewer than 13 points a game, got after the passer (30 sacks) and made plays (36 turnovers)

4. I'm not saying it would have made a difference, but IC's best corner was hurt and missed the Fisher game...

I just think that IC team was loaded everywhere—though Felicetti was uneven that year. They beat Fisher, they win at least two playoff games that season, IMO.

As for Fisher's inability to win the conference, it's kind of amazing to think a team that dominant in the E8 won their only conference title a decade ago in part thanks to what was clearly a blown call. My serious, no-trolling theory is that Fisher's identity under Vosburgh is so ingrained in being the underdog, the upstart if you will, they just don't handle being favorites.

I mean, look at that 2004 team. They beat an insanely loaded Ithaca, beat an 8-2 Springfield by 21, win an NCAA playoff game by 28, but they beat a 4-6 Kings by just 7, a 4-6 Rochester by 4, and they lose to freaking Norwich—which should never, ever have happened, and I don't care that Garcon was on that team.

Everything about Fisher feels this way. Even in 2006, that playoff run included a revenge win over Springfield, and a win over Rowan—who was still the bigger name at that point. It was a great team, but I bet there were plenty of doubters before both those game

In 2010, they lay an egg while undefeated against Alfred, who lost to freaking Rochester the next week.

In 2011, the team spends the whole regular season sleepwalking and then goes on the road to beat a 10-0 Hopkins and an 11-0 Del Valley

2013? You guys were resigned to the ECAC's and then of course you go on the road, hold John Carroll to something like 25 points below their season average, and then beat an undefeated Hobart.

Just look at the IC rivalry. You have the upstart win in 2004, followed by the loss. So in 2006, you've still got people who will say that the win was a fluke. So Fisher takes them out. Then in 2007, you shut up the "you never win at Butterfield crowd." In 2008, you miss the playoffs but hand Ithaca a 31-point loss, despite the fact that Ithaca was a top-10 team that year.

But the second Ithaca gets historically lousy? Then, suddenly playoff-bound Fisher needs OT to beat the only IC team with a losing record in the last 40 years. The next thing you know, Ithaca's beating you to win the conference thanks to kick returns and trick plays.

Fisher just handles the underdog role better. That's not an insult, though it's not really a compliment either.

Thanks for a really interesting analysis of these great E8 programs. Looking forward to future contests between E8 and LL teams.

[sjfcards]

Fisher just handles the underdog role better. That's not an insult, though it's not really a compliment either.

Unfortunately I think it is just the truth. There is no doubt that the "best" Fisher teams over the last couple of years (2010-now) have found ways to lose games that they should have won. When they have been the team most people pointed to as a clear favorite to make a run they have not. When they are doubted they have done well. I would like to think in time that comes to be its own sort of us against the world motivation, but we haven't seen it yet. To me, if Vos would challenge the group and say something to the effect of, "these teams think they can play with you...they think they are just as good if not better than you. We don't think they can, and now we are going to prove it" that sort of becomes the underdog attitude in a new form. Other teams may be just as good as Fisher, but inside the locker room I would guess no one feels that way.

To me this comes down to the us vs. them and the us vs. ourselves look at the program. This may be the same thing you are saying, just stated a different way, but if Fisher could compete against themselves week in and week out, rather than whoever they are playing, we may not see these random duds

[sjfcards]

Getting back on the boards for the first time in a while prompted me to do a little research on Fisher for next year. I have to admit I hadn't thought about D3 football in a while, but from my very quick look at the roster Fisher's offense should be pretty strong next year. The loss of Fenti will hurt, no doubt, but either Matt Naton or Danny Catan will have lots of options with Collichio, Campese, Fusco, and Chambers all coming back. The O line will have Khari Demos, Kyle Gensler, and Bilal Green back and the running game (Fusco and Chambers) was a huge part of the offense last year. I think I heard somewhere that Nigolian has another year, and if he comes back the offense could be special. Hopefully Naton can spread the ball around, but the running game should help that.

On Defense I have not looked at the defense yet, but I know Jordan Andrews (All east region 3rd team) Mark Guarino-Hyde (hurt most of last year) and Brandon Fuentes are back. Not sure who I am missing there, but having looked at this I think it could be a good year for Fisher.