FB: Empire 8

[pg04]

I havent seen this years Fisher team yet, and have no idea what is working or not working, but as a supporter of the team, a proud alum and donor to the athletic program I think its a bit premature to throw in the towel and think that we need a new coaching staff.
This team has not performed up to what fans would like- granted.
But a whole scale house cleaning.....
No...
Way too reactionary and extreme.

At the end of the game, when I watched and Fisher still had a good chance to come back, they had two fumbles. At some point the players have culpability for their mistakes too. I think 2 games is way too early to throw the panic button.

...I'm also afraid they are going to put it together just in time for the Courage bowl this week. 

Pg04, you always make me laugh. +K

Ha, thanks Pep. I enjoy your posts as well. I need to be more dedicated to coming on here. Being currently at a D1 school (UGA), my attention is often drawn to the "bigger brothers" but I do admit I have watched both Brockport games online, as well as parts of other E8 games.

[Jonny Utah]

A little comment on the Ithaca/Hobart game:

I saw pretty much the 2nd quarter to the finish, and thought both teams did a pretty solid job defensively.  Ithaca's QB is very good, and I think they should try to pass to set up the run more than run to set up the pass (since it is clear that they simply cannot block the inside /run 7 vs. 7).  I was pleasantly surprised to see a screen pass as well (even though it didn't work), and WRs did a good job making big catches and getting open.  I would suggest trying more of a sprint draw type run, or at least attempt some spread/zone type runs and let the backs cut instead of just having them pound the ball into the olines backs.  More one back sets, with some shotgun and a TE that can block one of the MLBs on those draws.  Impressed with Ithaca's defense though, especially the dline which has had a good game, which is good t osee.

I loved Hobart's TE #82, and their cover guys on their punt teams were great as well.  Hobart didn't seem to get open the way Ithaca did, and I'm not sure the coaches had the confidence in the QB to throw it over the middle, causing the QB to throw a lot of passes out of bounds when he ran out of time.  Their Dline is solid and their overall defense is very solid.

[D3viewer]

Wow.. Brockport and Fisher sure do have a streaky history.  I went back and wanted to see when was the last time Brockport had beaten Fisher. Considering the 2 nearby programs have played each other somewhat regularly  since at least 1992 (not sure when Fisher became D3 from club team), I basically forgot that they only played once between 2008 and 2013.
Since 1999 (I just looked at this websites archive (which is very handy BTW)..and the that is the farthest back it goes) you can basically cut the rivalry (if you will) in half.
Back in the early 2000's (in Brockport's heyday.. 4 straight NCAA playoffs appearances) Brockport won 5 times in a row ('99-'03). SJF has then won the last 6 times they've met.
Anyway...as far as recent history it's been all SJF..and that's a stiff obstacle for Brockport to overcome.

[Saxon73]

Pep was prepared to take a loss Saterday given AU's best D-lineman was out of the game

Additionally, star Safety Michael Berardi did not start or play due to a shoulder injury.  I believe he was all conference last year but he is a game changer none the less.  Also Sammy Davis had to leave the game due to injury. (3rd Qtr ? ) Seems there were some others as well.

[Bengalsrule]

Pep was prepared to take a loss Saterday given AU's best D-lineman was out of the game and the Bengal offense was running on all cylinders after taking a 26-14 lead. Then the band played "Crunch Time" at the end of the third quarter as it always does. To start the fourth quarter, AU had a 4th-and-11 at the Bengal 16 yard line and a scrambling Tyler Johnson, with defenders closing in along the sideline, threw it into the end zone where it was picked off. It didn't look good for AU.

With a two score lead and the ball, Buffalo State began to work the clock, advancing from its own 20 to its 45. Bengal QB Kyle Hoppy scrambled for a one-yard gain to the 45 but got his legs tangled up and was injured on the play...probably a knee. He did not return. (Pep certainly hopes it doesn't end his season...he was outstanding!) His understudy got run down and sacked for a 16-yard loss, then a bad snap led to the punter running for a 15 yard gain but short of a first down. Those three plays turned the game around.

Saxon offense responded with an 8-play 44-yard TD drive culminated with Brendan Buisch's 20-yard TD grab in the end zone. Now it's 26-21 with 9:05 to go and hope is restored to the big Family Weekend crowd.

Sans Hoppy, Buffalo State went three-and-out on its subsequent possession from the Bengal 36 yard line and punted back to AU. The AU offense went 77 yards in just six plays, including this play of the week where Casey Bright gains about 20 yards after the initial contact. Two plays later, the Saxons are in the end zone. A successful 2-point conversion put AU up by 3, 29-26.

Buffalo State's offense wasn't the same without Hoppy. Pep contends that Hoppy's injury played a pivotal role in the Saxons winning on Saturday. Pep wishes him a quick and complete recovery. He's a real competitor.

On Saxon Warriors!

   Thanks for the well wishes Pep. Hoppy (14/19 2 td.s 197 yds) will be out for a minute. I would have thought that Serignese (1 for 5, 10 yds) would have been more effective although Alfred's defense definitely had something to do with the results also. It didn't help that we fumbled the punt snap on our own 44 and gave the ball back to Alfred. Our 3rd fumble of the day in Alfred territory didn't help either when we were trying to respond to Alfred's 2 quick t.d.s.! Bottom line Alfred was the better team Saturday and much deserved kudos's to the Saxons.

  3rd road game in a row at Morrisville next week, who just got thrashed at Utica (38-14). Something tells me that they will be more than ready for my beloved BENGALS this coming Saturday. Hoppy/Serignese must be at the top of thier game plus ourdefense can't afford to give up 400 plus yards to the Mustangs like we did this past Saturday. Hopefully this loss will be the only blemish of our season!! 

   Go BENGALS!!!

[Bombers798891]

What I think a reasonable expectation would be is to have won a few conference titles in that span and make the playoffs in consecutive years. It is the same issue year in and year out where they lose to teams they have more talent than, and the coaches have to shoulder some of that blame.

So I wanted to address this when I saw it but wasn't around the boards. I think what makes Fisher so fascinating as a program is how their success is attained.

Pool A bids from 2005-2014:
Ithaca: 4
Fisher: 0

NCAA Playoff Wins from 2005-2014:
Fisher: 9 (I think)
Ithaca: 1

Now, I'm not going to set up a false dichotomy. I know it's possible to have both a lot of pool A bids and playoff wins, and that if Fisher had more Pool A bids (in 2010 and 2014 specifically) they'd have even more playoff wins. But it seems possible that the athletic department has decided that conference autobids are kind of fluky things and that the program's success is better measured in other ways.

The trouble with firing a whole staff (as opposed to say, the coach of an underperforming unit) for on-the-field performance is that you're saying the next staff has to do better.

We're talking about a program that, over the past 11+ years, with no prior history of success at all, has done the following:

Posted a 109-34 record (.762)
Made the NCAA playoffs five times
Won 11 NCAA playoff games
Has run a clean program

It's going to be very, very hard to find a staff that can do better than that. Sure, they could do better in certain specific indicators (like Pool A bids, beating triple option teams, or broadly "winning games against teams we're more talented than"—though I think that undersells the quality of a lot of the teams Fisher has lost to), but it seems pretty hard to take a big picture look at the Cardinals under Vosburgh and say "They need to do better as a football program."

[ExTartanPlayer]

Pool A bids from 2005-2014:
Ithaca: 4
Fisher: 0

NCAA Playoff Wins from 2005-2014:
Fisher: 9 (I think)
Ithaca: 1

This is one of my favorite quirky stats from around the Division.  Has any program even come close to this number of playoff wins in a similar time frame without a single Pool A berth in that same time frame?  What's the record for "consecutive playoff wins as a Pool C team?"

That quirk aside, I totally agree with Bombers' post...what Division III athletic department this side of Alliance, Ohio is going to look at that record and think "Our football program is underachieving" with a 109-34 record and a handful of deep playoff trips?  I love to poke fun at you Fisher guys because you have this inflated sense of what your program should be.  The coaches' success is almost working against them in this regard - if they didn't keep going on these stupid playoff runs, you wouldn't feel so damn entitled to the conference title, but since they keep managing to pull off some good playoff games every year or two, somehow now they're losing games that they "shouldn't" lose. 

From one point of view, they're doing a great job getting the kids to overachieve by winning some playoff games, but y'all would rather be all Eeyore about this and act like they're underachieving because they don't win the league.  It's fantastic.  I can only imagine what you guys would be like as Alabama fans.  Presumably you'd say that Nick Saban is falling short of expectations because he loses an SEC game every couple years against a team they have more talent than.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Personally I'm not going all doomsday scenario with this.  I previously stated that there is no guarantee a successor would fare any better and may in fact go in the opposite direction.  But I've seen maybe 100 of those games in that time span...which I think gives me enough of a window to see that the coaches are doing a fantastic job at recruiting some very talented players, but they rarely seem to capitalize on that talent to the fullest potential.  The coaching staff manages games ultra-conservatively, almost to a fault.  Can anyone remember the last time they did something like fake a field goal?  I remember the last time it happened to them - this past weekend.  They can become frustratingly predictable with their play calling and schemes.  A decade ago they seemed to be able to make effective mid-game adjustments (see 2006 game versus Ithaca as an example) but that is long gone.  Now we'll just stick to the same thing all game long even if we're getting our butts kicked.

I don't understand why you can't believe a team that has gone 109-34 could have done better than that with the players they had.  I saw firsthand how talented they were in comparison to the competition they faced.  It's not the same as saying you're disappointed in the team or think the program has performed poorly.  I've loved watching Fisher play every year and I really love it when they go into the playoffs since we're never a one and done.  It's been fun!       

[Bombers798891]

I don't understand why you can't believe a team that has gone 109-34 could have done better than that with the players they had.  I saw firsthand how talented they were in comparison to the competition they faced. 

Well, there's the micro way to look at it and the macro way. The micro way would be to, say, point at an individual game they lost—let's use Norwich '04 as an example— and say "They should have won this game". Well, sure, but that's true with everyone outside of the big 6. There's always a few games every team has like that. But since I'm bored, let's look at the 32 losses where we know how those seasons turned out as a general collective to get at a macro level look:

2003: 10-3 Ithaca, 11-2 RPI, 9-2 Brockport
2004: 7-4 Norwich, 12-1 Del Valley
2005: 8-3 Ithaca, 9-2 Alfred, 8-2 RPI
2006: 10-2 Springfield, 15-0 Mount Union
2007: 8-3 Hartwick, 14-1 Mount Union
2008: 15-0 Mount Union, 7-3 Hartwick, 7-4 Alfred, 9-2 Salisbury
2009: 14-1 Mount Union, 8-2 Alfred, 5-6 Salisbury
2010: 10-3 Alfred, 9-2 Springfield
2011: 11-2 Salisbury, 7-2 Hobart, 13-1 St. Thomas
2012: 9-3 Alfred, 6-4 Buff State, 6-4 Salisbury
2013: 9-3 Ithaca, 7-4 Salisbury, 13-1 Mary-Hardin Baylor
2014: 7-4 Salisbury, 7-4 Ithaca

Of the 32 losses:

--12 came against teams that won at least 10 games
--22 came against teams that won at least 8
--1 came against a team with a losing record.

Raw win totals aren't everything, but we all know how good the E8 has generally been. We know that none of these teams were like the ECFC teams that rack up 8 wins playing nobodies. By my estimation, exactly half of those losses were to:

Mount: Which no one should ever complain about, ever
Really, really, good teams: All of their non-Mount playoff losses, all three regular season games in 2003, Springfield '06, Salisbury '11
Good teams with once in a liftime players: Norwich '04 (Garcon), Hartwick '07 and '08 (Boltus)

Could Fisher have won a couple of those games? I guess, but no-one is looking at any of these losses and really thinking "What the heck just happened?" And there are just as many games they could have lost against good teams that they won (Ithaca '04, Springfield '06 the sequel)

Even most of the rest of their losses were to good teams. Josh Felicetti in his senior year at Butterfield? Tom Secky's best Alfred team? A Hobart program that was just kicking into "We're not going to lose in the  regular season for a few years, if that's cool" mode?

Frankly, from looking at the actual teams on the list that Fisher lost to, I'm going to say something controversial that will probably get me karma sniped, called out as an idiot and probably will cause Fisher to kill IC, go 8-2, and go on a great playoff run (because real karma):

I kind of think you guys, at times, don't really respect the other teams in the East/E8 and don't acknowledge that our teams are good too. I mean, I've heard you guys say that you do respect these other teams, but I also feel like you sometimes act like every loss to someone who isn't a national power is just because Fisher is screwing up and getting in their own way, either through crappy game management or not utilizing the talent on their roster properly.

Now, I know I've been guilty of doing the same thing with some IC losses, and I'm absolutely positive that some IC guys were completely arrogant about their program in relation to others back in the day before Fisher got to be really good. And I know I've said Fisher's shot themselves in the foot more than a few times. I'm absolutely guilty of this stuff, I'll admit it.

But I also think that, post 2007, you guys (and others, including myself) have probably overestimated how good Fisher actually is, especially in relation to the other good teams in the conference. I think Fisher's been good, and at times, very good—and that's reflected in their record in that span, as well as the two deep playoff runs. But they're not the head and shoulders class of the league (no one really is in the E8, it seems), and I'm not sure that's all on schemes and game management and dumb mistakes.

[wally_wabash]

I have nothing to add here...just wanted to say Bombers, dude, I dig your style.  Great, smart stuff. 

[ExTartanPlayer]

That's some fascinating stuff.  One key fact: they have lost one game against a team that finished under .500 (and that was a 5-6 Salisbury team).  It's not like they've been no-showing against loser teams, bringing me to the first key line:

Could Fisher have won a couple of those games? I guess, but no-one is looking at any of these losses and really thinking "What the heck just happened?" And there are just as many games they could have lost against good teams that they won (Ithaca '04, Springfield '06 the sequel)

Bingo!  This whole conversation makes it sound as though Fisher only beats teams that they're "supposed" to beat, but sometimes loses to teams that they're not supposed to lose to.  Which leads to the second key line:

I mean, I've heard you guys say that you do respect these other teams, but I also feel like you sometimes act like every loss to someone who isn't a national power is just because Fisher is screwing up and getting in their own way, either through crappy game management or not utilizing the talent on their roster properly.

This is something I've observed, not specific to Fisher, but of a lot of football fans in general.  It drives me absolutely bonkers to watch NFL games with people that have never played football because they give this same vibe when their team is losing - it's never because the other team is good and doing something right, it's always because their team is making mistakes / tackling poorly / blocking poorly / can't complete a pass / has idiot coaches / etc.  The other teams are trying to win, too.  They might even be pretty good. 

[D3viewer]

Bombers, +K..that is some spot on analysis.

[dlippiel]

Holy **** bombers! Impressive and great to read! +k!

[AUPepBand]

Bombers, +K..that is some spot on analysis.

"That old post? Heck, he only posts like that when he doesn't really care how he posts." 

Yes, Bombers once again hits the nail on the head. But he does it all the time.

This all got me thinking. Perhaps all the fluff of a website dedicated to the little guys, D3 national and regional (by the fans) rankings updated weekly and national exposure has elevated some fans' expectations of their football teams. Perhaps it's the influence of having a professional football team hanging around campus. But this idea of calling for the removal of an entire coaching staff of a small college, non-scholarship D3 football program goes against the very fiber of D3 football, where they play "for the love of the game." But what's truly absurd is that the program has been phenomenally successful, as Bombers so clearly documented.

Heck, ol' Alex Yunevich had a season when his Saxons didn't win a single game (1959), although they DID tie Brockport State, 20-20 in their season finale (just had to throw that one in for pg04). That season, the Olean Times-Herald made Alex the guest of honor at its Big 30 Football Banquet. Recognizing that Alex had probably worked as hard that season as any, he was worthy of recognition for his efforts. Alex once said, "We never lose. Finish second, maybe, but we never lose." And Alex took a realistic approach to the game and told his boys... "You're going to make mistakes, we all know that; but don't let them get you down."

On Saxon Warriors!

[Bartman]

Well said Pep and Bombers. E8 posts are as good as the football.