FB: Empire 8

[boobyhasgameyo]

Starting to wonder out loud if Bombers long ago, in a mastermind level move, decided to create a second account.  An account he could use to affirm whatever he just wrote under his bombers name.  To praise and further build on his own thoughts under the guise of someone else.   


Oh hi ExTartan, I didn't see you there 

[pg04]

Could be. I'm really also AUPepband 

[Jonny Utah]

Would you be more shocked if Kansas or Ithaca college won a national championship in 5 or 10 years? I'd be more shocked if Kansas was wouldn't you? 

Would that be the Kansas that in 2007, was ranked #2 in the country at 11-0?

I say D-I in general however. The reason? There's an upside you can sell to the University if you put out a contending team. Visibility, increased enrollment, increased donations, straight up cash from major bowl games. Even if those things don't always pay off, you can pitch it to people as being good for the school as a whole.

Trying to sell a college on the need to have not just a good, but a great D-III football team? That's a lot harder. What's the upside?

I'll give you a for instance. I interviewed a highly successful D-III softball coach recently and was told this.
"We let prospective players know that because we're a D-III team, even if we go 51-0, no one is going to care." Granted, football is more popular than softball, but the truth is something we don't like to admit. Most people on our campuses do not care one bit if our football teams are good or not. Sure, they'd prefer good rather than bad if you ask them on a questionaire. But watch how quickly that changes when you actually have to compromise academic/admission standards, or take money/time.focus away from something related to academics to give them extra resources in order to get there.

(Especially when you're dealing with the issues Ithaca currently is. I'm not even talking about the financial aid stuff we talk about a lot. Have you seen what's going on there right now? I'm the biggest football fan there is, and if there was an announcement tomorrow that the school was going to make a commitment to getting football to the national level, I'd quit following the team on general principle. There are a lot of much bigger fish to fry than football.)

I think we are getting a little off track here (in a good way that is leading to good discussions).  I don't think extra resources or facilities are the issue at IC (We agree that financial aid and admissions are probably 75% of the battle at Ithaca and any d3 school like Ithaca.)

The d1 examples I used are not getting support for various reasons.  Let's forget about Kansas for a second and turn to BC.  Boston College has no room to put a stadium, and they don't get any fans.  They have had some great players, and some good teams, but they probably won't get to the next level (top 3) for various reasons.  Top HS talent in the South and California aren't going to BC.  Top Catholic HS kids in Ohio and NJ do go to BC, but that is never enough.  BC administration could say they are putting in the best stadium, facilities, etc in the country and I don't think they will get the Florida 5 star recruit to go there.  Ithaca doesn't have that problem.  There is enought talent in surrounding states for any NY school to reach the next level talentwise.

Ill post more later,

[ITH radio]

Interesting that 5 E8 schools have bids in for ECACs. More than LL, MAC and NJAC combined.

[Pat Coleman]

Would you be more shocked if Kansas or Ithaca college won a national championship in 5 or 10 years? I'd be more shocked if Kansas was wouldn't you? 

Would that be the Kansas that in 2007, was ranked #2 in the country at 11-0?

I say D-I in general however. The reason? There's an upside you can sell to the University if you put out a contending team. Visibility, increased enrollment, increased donations, straight up cash from major bowl games. Even if those things don't always pay off, you can pitch it to people as being good for the school as a whole.

Trying to sell a college on the need to have not just a good, but a great D-III football team? That's a lot harder. What's the upside?

I'll give you a for instance. I interviewed a highly successful D-III softball coach recently and was told this.
"We let prospective players know that because we're a D-III team, even if we go 51-0, no one is going to care." Granted, football is more popular than softball, but the truth is something we don't like to admit. Most people on our campuses do not care one bit if our football teams are good or not. Sure, they'd prefer good rather than bad if you ask them on a questionaire. But watch how quickly that changes when you actually have to compromise academic/admission standards, or take money/time.focus away from something related to academics to give them extra resources in order to get there.

(Especially when you're dealing with the issues Ithaca currently is. I'm not even talking about the financial aid stuff we talk about a lot. Have you seen what's going on there right now? I'm the biggest football fan there is, and if there was an announcement tomorrow that the school was going to make a commitment to getting football to the national level, I'd quit following the team on general principle. There are a lot of much bigger fish to fry than football.)

Bombers
Not sure I'd agree
A few years ago, I interviewed a young candidate for a position, who was forwarded to me from a job fair.  On her resume, she listed 2 colleges...  Lycoming, then Penn State for undergrad.   When I asked her, why she transferred, she stated that someone advised her to get her degree from a well known school rather than a smaller school.   Of course I digressed given the scandal currently at it's height, and asked her if she regretted the decision based on what was happening.   
She said (as close as I can remember)..."No one knows who Lycoming's football coach is, but everyone knows Joe Paterno"...
Admittedly I was dumbfounded by that response.

The proper response to that is: "Mike Clark."

[D3viewer]

Bombers..since you work there..and I'm too lazy to look it up myself ..or Jonny Utah...what about the impact of Ithaca's Phys Ed program ? Do they even have one anymore ? Back in the day  at least when Butterfield was there it was a thriving and well respected program...top players such as Jeff Wittman were PE majors. He teaches PE in the Rochester area now. I know a decent amount of coaches who were Ithaca grads...but times have changed and I do not know if they even offer the program anymore. Not that PE is the panacea..(Brockport and Cortland have big PE programs and have been up and down over the years) but maybe it did bring in a different type of player and could expand their recruiting reach.

[jdex]

Am sure the boys from Ithaca will respond with more knowledge than thee, but believe IC still has PE program and was (is) quite big in the sports management field. Cortland is still a foremost PE institution but has spread its wings in several areas, including sports management. Don't know much as years have progressed as to why IC football has slipped. It usually starts at the top (administration). Know that was Cortland's situation around 1980 when the bombshell to drop football came down from on high. Wins were few and football was receiving little top level support. An alumni outcry followed and things changed ...from that top level.

There's no question the increase in schools playing football -- SJF, Hartwick, Morrisville, Buff State, Alfred State, has meant athletes have more choices. Of course, it seems Ithaca's roster was always dotted with a few out-of-staters, more so than other programs. Am also sure the Butterfield influence certainly made IC formidable. His No. 1 fan was the college president.

Cortland since about 2000 has had an unbelievable facility upgrade .......plus the Jets training grounds for several years ......and New Jersey exposure with their NJAC connection. All recruiting plusses.

To the importance of football on the college campus? Believe it is still a major force to attract enrollments, former junior colleges Morrisville and Alfred State prime examples. We know it was a reason given why Cortland should not abandon the sport when that issue arose.

Speaking of this season's Cortland game program confusion over Alfred U. and Alfred St.,  there were many who were quite confused over the years as to just how many colleges were in Cortland.  Cortland Normal, Cortland State, Cortland College, College at Cortland, State University College at Cortland, and others, to now SUNY Cortland. To most, certainly the alums, it's always Cortland State or C-State. And then there were the Buffalos .....UB and Buff St. Both at onetime were SUNYAC affiliates. Plattsburgh and Oswego both at onetime played football .....altogether these days with Mville, Alfred St., Bport and we'd have SUNYAC football!

[AUPepBand]

Plattsburgh and Oswego both at onetime played football .....altogether these days with Mville, Alfred St., Bport and we'd have SUNYAC football!

Do you know of any other SUNY schools that are even in the slightest considering adding football? Pep remembers his Saxons playing Plattsburgh State. Don't recall Oswego State ever having football...at least not in Pep's lifetime.

SUNYAC Football, the way Pep figures, is just one team away from a legit seven-school football conference complete with AQ! Consider:
1) Alfred State 2) College at Brockport 3) Buffalo State 4) SUNY Cortland 5) Morrisville State 6) SUNY-Maritime and 7)______________________(fill in the blank).

[bman]

Would you be more shocked if Kansas or Ithaca college won a national championship in 5 or 10 years? I'd be more shocked if Kansas was wouldn't you? 

Would that be the Kansas that in 2007, was ranked #2 in the country at 11-0?

I say D-I in general however. The reason? There's an upside you can sell to the University if you put out a contending team. Visibility, increased enrollment, increased donations, straight up cash from major bowl games. Even if those things don't always pay off, you can pitch it to people as being good for the school as a whole.

Trying to sell a college on the need to have not just a good, but a great D-III football team? That's a lot harder. What's the upside?

I'll give you a for instance. I interviewed a highly successful D-III softball coach recently and was told this.
"We let prospective players know that because we're a D-III team, even if we go 51-0, no one is going to care." Granted, football is more popular than softball, but the truth is something we don't like to admit. Most people on our campuses do not care one bit if our football teams are good or not. Sure, they'd prefer good rather than bad if you ask them on a questionaire. But watch how quickly that changes when you actually have to compromise academic/admission standards, or take money/time.focus away from something related to academics to give them extra resources in order to get there.

(Especially when you're dealing with the issues Ithaca currently is. I'm not even talking about the financial aid stuff we talk about a lot. Have you seen what's going on there right now? I'm the biggest football fan there is, and if there was an announcement tomorrow that the school was going to make a commitment to getting football to the national level, I'd quit following the team on general principle. There are a lot of much bigger fish to fry than football.)

Bombers
Not sure I'd agree
A few years ago, I interviewed a young candidate for a position, who was forwarded to me from a job fair.  On her resume, she listed 2 colleges...  Lycoming, then Penn State for undergrad.   When I asked her, why she transferred, she stated that someone advised her to get her degree from a well known school rather than a smaller school.   Of course I digressed given the scandal currently at it's height, and asked her if she regretted the decision based on what was happening.   
She said (as close as I can remember)..."No one knows who Lycoming's football coach is, but everyone knows Joe Paterno"...
Admittedly I was dumbfounded by that response.

The proper response to that is: "Mike Clark."

Pat...negative K me if you want, but I just didn't have that at my fingertips....
I guess I just wasn't prepared...

now back to E8 action....

[wesleydad]

Regional rankings are interesting to me.  Seems like the committee likes the everyone beats everyone E8 over the a few good teams NJAC.  I am surprised that Rowan is not ranked.  Also, the MAC seems to be getting more love too.  The RR are always an interesting try to figure out what they are thinking.

[jdex]

Plattsburgh and Oswego both at onetime played football .....altogether these days with Mville, Alfred St., Bport and we'd have SUNYAC football!

Do you know of any other SUNY schools that are even in the slightest considering adding football? Pep remembers his Saxons playing Plattsburgh State. Don't recall Oswego State ever having football...at least not in Pep's lifetime.

SUNYAC Football, the way Pep figures, is just one team away from a legit seven-school football conference complete with AQ! Consider:
1) Alfred State 2) College at Brockport 3) Buffalo State 4) SUNY Cortland 5) Morrisville State 6) SUNY-Maritime and 7)______________________(fill in the blank).

Plattsburgh grid existence was shortlived. Know Cortland wins 44-22 in the Burgh in '78 in only meeting. Oswego Normal and Cortland Normal square off as early as the 19teens and again in the late '20s and early '30s. Last clash in '35. Cortland wins in '29 under coach Howard Hobson. The Magicman would certainly recall the legendary Hobson, yes? About a decade later he pilots Oregon to the first NCAA BASKETBALL tourney title! And no he did not coach Cortland basketball. Spends one school year at C-State

[magicman]

Plattsburgh and Oswego both at onetime played football .....altogether these days with Mville, Alfred St., Bport and we'd have SUNYAC football!

Do you know of any other SUNY schools that are even in the slightest considering adding football? Pep remembers his Saxons playing Plattsburgh State. Don't recall Oswego State ever having football...at least not in Pep's lifetime.

SUNYAC Football, the way Pep figures, is just one team away from a legit seven-school football conference complete with AQ! Consider:
1) Alfred State 2) College at Brockport 3) Buffalo State 4) SUNY Cortland 5) Morrisville State 6) SUNY-Maritime and 7)______________________(fill in the blank).

Plattsburgh grid existence was shortlived. Know Cortland wins 44-22 in the Burgh in '78 in only meeting. Oswego Normal and Cortland Normal square off as early as the 19teens and again in the late '20s and early '30s. Last clash in '35. Cortland wins in '29 under coach Howard Hobson. The Magicman would certainly recall the legendary Hobson, yes? About a decade later he pilots Oregon to the first NCAA BASKETBALL tourney title! And no he did not coach Cortland basketball. Spends one school year at C-State

I must admit that the legendary Howard "Hobby" Hobson was ending his career in the mid 50's when the magicman was still counting his birthdays on 2 hands. I had not heard of this very interesting person, who coached not 1, not 2, but 3 college sports (that I could find info on, he may have coached more). Hobson was a football coach early in his coaching career at Cortland, then Southern Oregon before switching to Oregon where he coached basketball and baseball for a number of years. As jdex mentioned his Oregon team became the champions of the first NCAA basketball tournament. He was also the first coach to win league championships at the major college level on both the East and West coasts. He was a pioneer of intersectional hoops play, as the Oregon Ducks were the first Western team to travel to the East coast and years later his Yale team was the first Yale team to travel to the West coast.

A past president of the NABC, he was also a member of the U.S. Olympic Basketball Committee for 12 years. He was inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame as a coach in 1965. Born in 1903, he passed away a month shy of his 88th birthday in 1991.

Overall Head Coaching Record   
12–7–1 (college football)
401–257 (college basketball)
167–75–1 (college baseball)

Thanks to jdex for bringing Coach Hobson to my attention. Plus K. 

[AUPepBand]

Plattsburgh and Oswego both at onetime played football .....altogether these days with Mville, Alfred St., Bport and we'd have SUNYAC football!

Do you know of any other SUNY schools that are even in the slightest considering adding football? Pep remembers his Saxons playing Plattsburgh State. Don't recall Oswego State ever having football...at least not in Pep's lifetime.

SUNYAC Football, the way Pep figures, is just one team away from a legit seven-school football conference complete with AQ! Consider:
1) Alfred State 2) College at Brockport 3) Buffalo State 4) SUNY Cortland 5) Morrisville State 6) SUNY-Maritime and 7)______________________(fill in the blank).

Plattsburgh grid existence was shortlived. Know Cortland wins 44-22 in the Burgh in '78 in only meeting. Oswego Normal and Cortland Normal square off as early as the 19teens and again in the late '20s and early '30s. Last clash in '35. Cortland wins in '29 under coach Howard Hobson. The Magicman would certainly recall the legendary Hobson, yes? About a decade later he pilots Oregon to the first NCAA BASKETBALL tourney title! And no he did not coach Cortland basketball. Spends one school year at C-State

I must admit that the legendary Howard "Hobby" Hobson was ending his career in the mid 50's when the magicman was still counting his birthdays on 2 hands. I had not heard of this very interesting person, who coached not 1, not 2, but 3 college sports (that I could find info on, he may have coached more). Hobson was a football coach early in his coaching career at Cortland, then Southern Oregon before switching to Oregon where he coached basketball and baseball for a number of years. As jdex mentioned his Oregon team became the champions of the first NCAA basketball tournament. He was also the first coach to win league championships at the major college level on both the East and West coasts. He was a pioneer of intersectional hoops play, as the Oregon Ducks were the first Western team to travel to the East coast and years later his Yale team was the first Yale team to travel to the West coast.

A past president of the NABC, he was also a member of the U.S. Olympic Basketball Committee for 12 years. He was inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame as a coach in 1965. Born in 1903, he passed away a month shy of his 88th birthday in 1991.

Overall Head Coaching Record   
12–7–1 (college football)
401–257 (college basketball)
167–75–1 (college baseball)

Thanks to jdex for bringing Coach Hobson to my attention. Plus K.

This reminds Pep of Edwin R. Sweetland. In the early days of intercollegiate athletics, it may have been more commonplace for schools to hire one guy to coach ALL of its athletic offerings....which at that time was probably football, basketball or wrestling, track & field and baseball.

E.R. Sweetland was the same sort of guy and was Alfred University's sole flirt with highly-competitive athletics at a school better known for its ineptitude. (Until, of course, the "legendary" Alex the Great Yunevich came along). In the tail end of a notable coaching career, Sweetland made the jaunt from Dryden to Alfred to lead the Saxon football team to 1915-17 and 1919 records of 4-2, 5-1, 3-0 and 5-2, respectively. Apparently Alfred's opponents weren't all that thrilled with his tactics and threatened to drop AU from their schedule. His contract, therefore, was not renewed for 1920.

Sweetland began his long coaching career at Hamilton College, with stops at Syracuse, Ohio State, Colgate, Kentucky (where he became the first paid basketball coach), Miami, OH, another stint at Kentucky, West Virginia, Tulane and, finally, little Alfred University.

[Bombers798891]

He teaches PE in the Rochester area now. I know a decent amount of coaches who were Ithaca grads...(Brockport and Cortland have big PE programs and have been up and down over the years)

I don't teach PE, and thus I do not know what they make. My guess, however, is that they don't make all that much. So, nothing against IC, but if Cortland and Brockport's programs are comparable in quality, and cost a quarter of what Ithaca's does...why would you go to Ithaca?

Too often, when we start talking about one college being "better" academically than another, as it relates to football recruits, we aren't talking about the right thing. Ithaca is a very good school overall, but its three truly elite programs are music, physical therapy, and communications. Now, there are certainly some players who can, and do, excel in these programs. Kenny Bradley is a Communications major, as was Phil Nuemann. I was a guest lecturer in one of Clay Ardoin's PT classes (dude was built, by the way).

But I'd guess (someone else can run the numbers) that a majority of the football players are pursuing other majors, and thus it's likely that Ithaca may not differentiate itself enough to make up for the increasing price gap between other peer institutions.

So the question isn't "Is Ithaca a better academic school than Cortland?" It's "Is Ithaca so much better than Cortland in the majors potential student-athletes want that they're willing to pay four times as much for their education?" I think, increasingly, the answer is no, because students simply do not want six figures of debt when they graduate

[sjfcards]

Plattsburgh and Oswego both at onetime played football .....altogether these days with Mville, Alfred St., Bport and we'd have SUNYAC football!

Do you know of any other SUNY schools that are even in the slightest considering adding football? Pep remembers his Saxons playing Plattsburgh State. Don't recall Oswego State ever having football...at least not in Pep's lifetime.

SUNYAC Football, the way Pep figures, is just one team away from a legit seven-school football conference complete with AQ! Consider:
1) Alfred State 2) College at Brockport 3) Buffalo State 4) SUNY Cortland 5) Morrisville State 6) SUNY-Maritime and 7)______________________(fill in the blank).

Any SUNYAC school adding football would have me worried as an E8 fan obviously. I understand the draw for a SUNYAC school to add football for all the reasons discussed on this board, and wouldn't be even a little surprised if someone like Plattsburgh, Oswego, or Potsdam announced (maybe even a New Paltz).

I would still love to see an upstate football conference formed for all the private schools, but don't see why the LL teams would jump to something like that. So what do the remaining E8 schools do? Hartwick, IC, Fisher, Utica, and Alfred would have the start of a conference but adding two teams would not be easy. Alfred State would be out as an option and IC may just as well split for the LL. The NJAC is pretty set and none of the other leagues really feel like they are as exposed to me. I know it is all hypothetical at this point, but it is something the E8 commissioner should consider.

I think I remember something about Elmira adding football on here a while back, but not sure if that is accurate or not.