FB: Empire 8

[AUPepBand]

It will be humbling, no doubt, for our new president, Mark Zupan, to appear on campus donning a foxy outfit and a pink bow in his hair!

Perhaps it will stir up the Saxon Nation to greater heights...although in higher education in New York State, it doesn't get any higher than Alfred. (Elevation 1800 ft. to 2300 ft. above sea level).

On Saxon Warriors!

[fisheralum91]

I wont rush the summer away.....but we really need football!

[ITH radio]

56 days....

[Bombers798891]

So I was the recipient of about a dozen old Bomber football media guides last week, which gives me 33 of the 40 from 1970 to 2009.

It's amazing, when I read through them, how the game completely seemed to shift from the mid/late 80s to early 90s. I mean, yes, Ithaca ran the veer option for a long time under Butterfield, but by the early 90s, even he had started throwing a lot more. Nick Ismailoff had 39 catches for 599 yards in the 1991 playoffs alone, and the school's single season record for receptions technically came in 1993, his final season.

I bring this up because I got into a debate with a buddy over whether or not Josh Felicetti was the best QB in IC history. To me, the answer is obviously yes, the passing numbers are just so overwhelming. But he pointed out that, by definition, the job of a QB was so different in the 60s and 70s, the running numbers should be included. My counter to that was, a QB who runs the ball on a designed option, keeper, sweep or end around, is essentially acting as a running back.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with considering the running aspect of a QBs game, but I feel like there's a point at which you go from a quarterback who has the ability to run the ball, and a running back who can sometimes throw. As examples

Jason Boltus, 2007: 141 carries, 438 yards, 7 TDs; 443 pass attempts, 3,986 yards, 38 TDs
Chris Sharpe, 2006: 261 carries, 1,941 yards 35 TDs; 38 pass attempts, 476 yards, 4 TDs
Mark Robinson, 2006: 272 carries, 1,645 yards, 24 TDs, 0 pass attempts, 0 yards, 0 TDs

I mean, Boltus and Sharpe are both technically, QBs, but Sharpe looks a lot more similar to Robinson than Boltus. Should comparisons be made between guys who line up in the same place on the field as you, or who are doing the same thing 90% of the time?

Less you think I'm picking on Sharpe, here's another example: If you were to ask Mike Welch about the greatest running backs in Ithaca College history, do you think he'd leave off a guy like Jeff Wittman or Paul Parker, just because they were technically considered the fullbacks in the offense (Jeff Adams and Mike Scott were considered the running backs)?

So, as an offseason discussion topic, what do you guys think? How should we define the positions of players?

[ITH radio]

I recently voted for Sharpe on a twitter based survey about who's the best "running QB" from smaller / lesser known (i.e., non-big time FBS) schools.

I do think there's a difference in a QB who's a passer vs. one who only throws occasionally. Maybe they are triple option / running backs in reality but otherwise the guy who gets the ball is considered the QB. That said, the wildcat QB is typically a RB or TE and not viewed as a traditional QB, so there's that.

Maybe you can classify it that way (traditional vs. running / WC)?

[Bombers798891]

I recently voted for Sharpe on a twitter based survey about who's the best "running QB" from smaller / lesser known (i.e., non-big time FBS) schools.

I do think there's a difference in a QB who's a passer vs. one who only throws occasionally. Maybe they are triple option / running backs in reality but otherwise the guy who gets the ball is considered the QB. That said, the wildcat QB is typically a RB or TE and not viewed as a traditional QB, so there's that.

Maybe you can classify it that way (traditional vs. running / WC)?

Yeah, I mean it's kind of a fascinating debate. For modern purposes, I would prefer there be a minimum number of something you need to make the list at a position. That, and using the all-purpose label more would help. Again, Chris Sharpe was awesome. But trying to compare him to Rob Kramer or Dan Juvan is sort of an exercise in futility

[Jonny Utah]

I recently voted for Sharpe on a twitter based survey about who's the best "running QB" from smaller / lesser known (i.e., non-big time FBS) schools.

I do think there's a difference in a QB who's a passer vs. one who only throws occasionally. Maybe they are triple option / running backs in reality but otherwise the guy who gets the ball is considered the QB. That said, the wildcat QB is typically a RB or TE and not viewed as a traditional QB, so there's that.

Maybe you can classify it that way (traditional vs. running / WC)?

Yeah, I mean it's kind of a fascinating debate. For modern purposes, I would prefer there be a minimum number of something you need to make the list at a position. That, and using the all-purpose label more would help. Again, Chris Sharpe was awesome. But trying to compare him to Rob Kramer or Dan Juvan is sort of an exercise in futility

Yea they are almost different positions.

But....., if Juvan or Kramer went to Springfield and tried out for the football team, they would probably both be backup linebackers.  If Sharpe went to Ithaca or SJF, those schools may find a way to play him at QB or at the very least Slot, RB or WR.  That doesn't make Sharpe the better QB, but the running ability gives him an advantage over other QBs in various offenses.

[ITH radio]

Well, the QB for USMMA (trip option QB who barely passed the ball) was named 1st team LL as an "ATH".

Seems like that "ATH" designation is becoming more common actually.

[AUPepBand]

So, while this thread may be nearly dead, what's everyone thinking about the Empire 8 in 2016? Another Demolition Derby? Who's the favorite?

[Bombers798891]

But....., if Juvan or Kramer went to Springfield and tried out for the football team, they would probably both be backup linebackers.  If Sharpe went to Ithaca or SJF, those schools may find a way to play him at QB or at the very least Slot, RB or WR.  That doesn't make Sharpe the better QB, but the running ability gives him an advantage over other QBs in various offenses.

Well, my guess would be that they wouldn't. I mean, I suppose they could really like the school, but odds are, if you can throw like they can, you probably don't even consider Springfield, or vice-versa.

I think it kind of breaks down because one way you sometimes see these debates couched is like "Who would you prefer as your QB, Sharpe or Kramer?" Well, it's sort of meaningless in this regard, because as you point out, a guy with Kramer's skill set can't really run Springfield's offense, and a guy with Sharpe's couldn't really run Fisher's.*

*I mean, probably not. Todd Wilkowski became a good enough passer by 1991 standards that the air attack was a major weapon for Ithaca. But, even then, I think the completion percentage was around 50 with close to a 1-1 TD/INT ratio.

Not only because of their own skill set, but because, the offenses require different skill sets from everyone. I mean, in 2004, Springfield's leading receiver had 4 catches. Is that a guy who's going to thrive if he's going to be asked to run a route tree and make tough catches in traffic? Is a WR from Ithaca or Fisher going to be a good enough blocker to make the TO work? Are the respective offensive lines good enough at what they're asked to do?

I like the idea of using some sort of "athlete" designation for TO quarterbacks.

[Bombers798891]

So, while this thread may be nearly dead, what's everyone thinking about the Empire 8 in 2016? Another Demolition Derby? Who's the favorite?

I'm hoping for a clear best team to emerge, and for that clear best team to play like it for 10 weeks.

None of this, "Fisher looked like world beaters for 8 weeks, but because they still can't defend a triple option, and they always lose at least one conference game, they missed the playoffs" or "Wait, how did Ithaca win the conference again? Didn't they just lose to Frostburg and have no offense?" or "Well, Buffalo State's 0-2 in E8 play, so  later they'll beat the two prohibitive favorites in back-to-back weeks. Don't worry about them in the playoffs, though. They'll lose to Hartwick."

In other words, what everyone else calls "parity/depth"

Cortland and Fisher I guess are the favorites. They seem to be the most consistent success stories in the E8. Alfred's consistently good too, but for the last few seasons especially, they seem to be the anti-E8 team. What I mean is, they lose to the teams that finish ahead of them in the standings, and generally abide by the end-of-season pecking order. They beat who they should beat, and lose to who they should.

[HansenRatings]

In other words, what everyone else calls "parity/depth"

Looking at my conference projections, it's actually pretty comical how closely each team is projected to finish:

Team	Wins	Losses
St. John Fisher	5.5	2.5
Cortland	5.4	2.6
Buffalo State	4.5	3.5
Alfred	4.4	3.6
Ithaca	3.7	4.3
Brockport	3.6	4.4
Utica	3.5	4.5
Morrisville State	2.9	5.1
Hartwick	2.5	5.5

Reference: http://loganahansen21.wix.com/hansen-ratings

[Upstate]

Fisher's QB position is really a mystery right now so they could fall anywhere in the standings. They could win the conference or finish 5-5, no one knows.

They have no one that attempted any passes in 2015 returning.

The only guy that saw game time (in a blowout vs Alfred St) is Kevin Colafranceschi from the Buffalo area, he took some snaps in that game but didn't attempt a pass.

Could be a down year for Fisher.

[ITH radio]

I saw one preseason ranking that had both Fisher and Cortland in top 25 but don't know enough yet about who's coming back to really know if that makes sense or not. Cortland did have a good run last year and kind of surprised me how well they handled Salusbury in the playoffs last year.

I could see Alfred breaking thru as they seem to have been building well the last cpl of seasons.

[sjfcards]

Fisher's QB position is really a mystery right now so they could fall anywhere in the standings. They could win the conference or finish 5-5, no one knows.

They have no one that attempted any passes in 2015 returning.

The only guy that saw game time (in a blowout vs Alfred St) is Kevin Colafranceschi from the Buffalo area, he took some snaps in that game but didn't attempt a pass.

Could be a down year for Fisher.

Not sure I would have Fisher anywhere near the top of the league at this point. They really just were not that good last year, and lost a lot of talent (Andrews, Campese, Nigolian, etc.). I have no idea who will be the QB, but both were pretty average last year. They do bring back some talent at RB, and O-line, but I don't see the defense holding up either. Just not a team I expect too much out of at this point.