FB: Empire 8

[unionpalooza]

I guess we have to define success.

Is it a Cortland like brief moment in time? 15 years for Fisher and Alfred? 40 years for IC?

And then what's the peak? A national title? Being in the mix?

Having worked in higher education for a long time, I think it really comes down to whether the institution as a whole wants to be a success. This isn't basketball, where you can get to the Sweet 16 on the backs of six guys, or wrestling or track, where a team title is possible if you have a dozen. You've got to be strong on both sides of the ball, and you've got to have depth pieces for special teams and different looks.

That simply requires a different level of institutional support than many schools want to offer, or are able to

I guess I really have in mind top-tier success - contending for titles on a sustained basis.  I remain baffled by the fact that no East team has played in a Stagg Bowl in the last two decades, and no one but Rowan has done it since 1991.  That's a long, long time without a single real contender. 

I certainly agree that in the end, a lot of it comes down to institutional support.  You've got to recruit and coach the right kids, but you also have to get 100+ guys through admissions and financial aid.  My hunch is a lot of higher-level success comes down to what (or rather, who) you can get through those two offices; good coaches, facilities, etc. are just the ante.

[Jonny Utah]

I guess we have to define success.

Is it a Cortland like brief moment in time? 15 years for Fisher and Alfred? 40 years for IC?

And then what's the peak? A national title? Being in the mix?

Having worked in higher education for a long time, I think it really comes down to whether the institution as a whole wants to be a success. This isn't basketball, where you can get to the Sweet 16 on the backs of six guys, or wrestling or track, where a team title is possible if you have a dozen. You've got to be strong on both sides of the ball, and you've got to have depth pieces for special teams and different looks.

That simply requires a different level of institutional support than many schools want to offer, or are able to

I guess I really have in mind top-tier success - contending for titles on a sustained basis.  I remain baffled by the fact that no East team has played in a Stagg Bowl in the last two decades, and no one but Rowan has done it since 1991.  That's a long, long time without a single real contender. 

I certainly agree that in the end, a lot of it comes down to institutional support.  You've got to recruit and coach the right kids, but you also have to get 100+ guys through admissions and financial aid.  My hunch is a lot of higher-level success comes down to what (or rather, who) you can get through those two offices; good coaches, facilities, etc. are just the ante.

How many teams from Ohio or PA (besides Mt. Union) have played in a Stagg?  Makes it no so much an "east" problem if you look at it that way.

[The Mole]

Zero since 1997. From 1973 to 1997 pretty good showing, considering it was a very tight field. In OH: Wittenberg, Dayton, Baldwin-Wallace. In PA: Juniata, Widener, Allegheny, Lycoming & W&J. All OH Stagg in 78 Witt vs BW, All PA in 90 Lycoming vs Allegheny. 73 Witt vs Juniata, 81 Widener vs Dayton.

Baldwin Wallace 78
Wittenberg 73 75 78 79
Dayton 80 81 87 89 91
Juniata 73
Allegheny 90
Widener 77 81
W&J 92 94
Lycoming 90 97

crazy looking at the numbers...

I guess we have to define success.

Is it a Cortland like brief moment in time? 15 years for Fisher and Alfred? 40 years for IC?

And then what's the peak? A national title? Being in the mix?

Having worked in higher education for a long time, I think it really comes down to whether the institution as a whole wants to be a success. This isn't basketball, where you can get to the Sweet 16 on the backs of six guys, or wrestling or track, where a team title is possible if you have a dozen. You've got to be strong on both sides of the ball, and you've got to have depth pieces for special teams and different looks.

That simply requires a different level of institutional support than many schools want to offer, or are able to

I guess I really have in mind top-tier success - contending for titles on a sustained basis.  I remain baffled by the fact that no East team has played in a Stagg Bowl in the last two decades, and no one but Rowan has done it since 1991.  That's a long, long time without a single real contender. 

I certainly agree that in the end, a lot of it comes down to institutional support.  You've got to recruit and coach the right kids, but you also have to get 100+ guys through admissions and financial aid.  My hunch is a lot of higher-level success comes down to what (or rather, who) you can get through those two offices; good coaches, facilities, etc. are just the ante.

How many teams from Ohio or PA (besides Mt. Union) have played in a Stagg?  Makes it no so much an "east" problem if you look at it that way.

[XREDDRAGON77]

I always looked at IC as the standard in the East. RPI, Port, and Fisher all had great playoff runs at one point or another . Cortland hasn't peaked as high and maybe even underachieved or were overrated in their better years. Over the past 35 years they have been rather consistently good. Not great, not bad. Some 4-6 seasons in the late 90s but we played some rough schedules...but you are what your record says you are. I believe we forfeited 7 wins in the 0-4 season about 10 or so years ago due to a self reported ineligible player. At the moment, I'll enjoy their recent and current success as we know it may not be infinite.

[wally_wabash]

Zero since 1997. From 1973 to 1997 pretty good showing, considering it was a very tight field. In OH: Wittenberg, Dayton, Baldwin-Wallace. In PA: Juniata, Widener, Allegheny, Lycoming & W&J. All OH Stagg in 78 Witt vs BW, All PA in 90 Lycoming vs Allegheny. 73 Witt vs Juniata, 81 Widener vs Dayton.

Baldwin Wallace 78
Wittenberg 73 75 78 79
Dayton 80 81 87 89 91
Juniata 73
Allegheny 90
Widener 77 81
W&J 92 94
Lycoming 90 97

crazy looking at the numbers...

I guess we have to define success.

Is it a Cortland like brief moment in time? 15 years for Fisher and Alfred? 40 years for IC?

And then what's the peak? A national title? Being in the mix?

Having worked in higher education for a long time, I think it really comes down to whether the institution as a whole wants to be a success. This isn't basketball, where you can get to the Sweet 16 on the backs of six guys, or wrestling or track, where a team title is possible if you have a dozen. You've got to be strong on both sides of the ball, and you've got to have depth pieces for special teams and different looks.

That simply requires a different level of institutional support than many schools want to offer, or are able to

I guess I really have in mind top-tier success - contending for titles on a sustained basis.  I remain baffled by the fact that no East team has played in a Stagg Bowl in the last two decades, and no one but Rowan has done it since 1991.  That's a long, long time without a single real contender. 

I certainly agree that in the end, a lot of it comes down to institutional support.  You've got to recruit and coach the right kids, but you also have to get 100+ guys through admissions and financial aid.  My hunch is a lot of higher-level success comes down to what (or rather, who) you can get through those two offices; good coaches, facilities, etc. are just the ante.

How many teams from Ohio or PA (besides Mt. Union) have played in a Stagg?  Makes it no so much an "east" problem if you look at it that way.

The E8, LL, and CC are all good leagues that pretty consistently churn out really strong champions that don't get enough credit because people are holding them to a Stagg-Bowl-or-you-stink standard.  In the AQ era of the championship (1998-present), 13 teams in total have even played for a Stagg Bowl.  In 25 years.  Thirteen.  It's a ridiculous standard that undermines how good a lot of the football is in this part of the country. 

[unionpalooza]

Zero since 1997. From 1973 to 1997 pretty good showing, considering it was a very tight field. In OH: Wittenberg, Dayton, Baldwin-Wallace. In PA: Juniata, Widener, Allegheny, Lycoming & W&J. All OH Stagg in 78 Witt vs BW, All PA in 90 Lycoming vs Allegheny. 73 Witt vs Juniata, 81 Widener vs Dayton.

Baldwin Wallace 78
Wittenberg 73 75 78 79
Dayton 80 81 87 89 91
Juniata 73
Allegheny 90
Widener 77 81
W&J 92 94
Lycoming 90 97

crazy looking at the numbers...

I guess we have to define success.

Is it a Cortland like brief moment in time? 15 years for Fisher and Alfred? 40 years for IC?

And then what's the peak? A national title? Being in the mix?

Having worked in higher education for a long time, I think it really comes down to whether the institution as a whole wants to be a success. This isn't basketball, where you can get to the Sweet 16 on the backs of six guys, or wrestling or track, where a team title is possible if you have a dozen. You've got to be strong on both sides of the ball, and you've got to have depth pieces for special teams and different looks.

That simply requires a different level of institutional support than many schools want to offer, or are able to

I guess I really have in mind top-tier success - contending for titles on a sustained basis.  I remain baffled by the fact that no East team has played in a Stagg Bowl in the last two decades, and no one but Rowan has done it since 1991.  That's a long, long time without a single real contender. 

I certainly agree that in the end, a lot of it comes down to institutional support.  You've got to recruit and coach the right kids, but you also have to get 100+ guys through admissions and financial aid.  My hunch is a lot of higher-level success comes down to what (or rather, who) you can get through those two offices; good coaches, facilities, etc. are just the ante.

How many teams from Ohio or PA (besides Mt. Union) have played in a Stagg?  Makes it no so much an "east" problem if you look at it that way.

The E8, LL, and CC are all good leagues that pretty consistently churn out really strong champions that don't get enough credit because people are holding them to a Stagg-Bowl-or-you-stink standard.  In the AQ era of the championship (1998-present), 13 teams in total have even played for a Stagg Bowl.  In 25 years.  Thirteen.  It's a ridiculous standard that undermines how good a lot of the football is in this part of the country.

Amen to that. In the east I sometimes think it would be way more fun if everyone skipped the NCAAs and we instead had a 16-team regional tourney for the Lambert Cup. 

I get the whole non-regional tournament format change but playing for a regional title is more interesting that playing a random bracket for the right to face off against a North Central or Mt Union. 

[Ice Bear]

Reading through the last few pages many good points have been made regarding what I believe to be a very good question. What does a program have to do to reach that top tier of d3 football? I really appreciate Wally's point but I think after it being decades since an eastern program made waves in that top tier many of us have become frustrated and admittedly confused at the east's disappearance from the top tier of d3 football.

I think good points have been made regarding the importance of building a program that is supported by the top admins right through the educators and even the students. Almost a culture. Yet, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, IC seems like they have all of those pieces (which may explain their consistency as really the top program in the east over a very long period of time) and still are unable to take that next step. This is certainly not meant as a slight on the Bombers but a true compliment. One that makes the point that even our best and most consistent team isn't getting there).

It also seems to me that the level of football played at the high school level in NYS is just not very high. I know when looking at HS teams here in the Capital Region/section #2, the level of play just does not seem very good (consistently) in comparison to much of the state, which in turn seems to really lack behind the true football hotbeds.

I don't know much but I do know this, we here in the east are dying for a team to break into that top tier, even if for one season. Maybe it won't happen and maybe, to Wally's point, we really do have some high level d3 football being played in this region by some teams that just fall short of that almost unrealistic top tier. I love the d3 football played here in NY and have done so since the early 80's. I have a profound respect for the excellent student athletes and all they bring each season, each week. Yet admittedly there is still that hope, that desire for a true east region team be it IC, Cortland, Brockport, Del Val, RPI, Hobart, Union, and on and on to make the leap.

[unionpalooza]

Reading through the last few pages many good points have been made regarding what I believe to be a very good question. What does a program have to do to reach that top tier of d3 football? I really appreciate Wally's point but I think after it being decades since an eastern program made waves in that top tier many of us have become frustrated and admittedly confused at the east's disappearance from the top tier of d3 football.

I think good points have been made regarding the importance of building a program that is supported by the top admins right through the educators and even the students. Almost a culture. Yet, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, IC seems like they have all of those pieces (which may explain their consistency as really the top program in the east over a very long period of time) and still are unable to take that next step. This is certainly not meant as a slight on the Bombers but a true compliment. One that makes the point that even our best and most consistent team isn't getting there).

It also seems to me that the level of football played at the high school level in NYS is just not very high. I know when looking at HS teams here in the Capital Region/section #2, the level of play just does not seem very good (consistently) in comparison to much of the state, which in turn seems to really lack behind the true football hotbeds.

I don't know much but I do know this, we here in the east are dying for a team to break into that top tier, even if for one season. Maybe it won't happen and maybe, to Wally's point, we really do have some high level d3 football being played in this region by some teams that just fall short of that almost unrealistic top tier. I love the d3 football played here in NY and have done so since the early 80's. I have a profound respect for the excellent student athletes and all they bring each season, each week. Yet admittedly there is still that hope, that desire for a true east region team be it IC, Cortland, Brockport, Del Val, RPI, Hobart, Union, and on and on to make the leap.

I sometimes wonder is how much the East's fall can be traced to the prevalence of FCS and D2 programs in the east.  If you look at the late 80s D3 landscape, it's striking how many east programs jumped up in later years.  There more than two dozen in FCS programs concentrated in the northeast.  There are none in MI or MN: one in WI; four in IL; three each in Indiana and Ohio. A lot of the studs that went to Ithaca and Union in the 1980s go to UAlbany and their ilk today. 

[Jonny Utah]

Zero since 1997. From 1973 to 1997 pretty good showing, considering it was a very tight field. In OH: Wittenberg, Dayton, Baldwin-Wallace. In PA: Juniata, Widener, Allegheny, Lycoming & W&J. All OH Stagg in 78 Witt vs BW, All PA in 90 Lycoming vs Allegheny. 73 Witt vs Juniata, 81 Widener vs Dayton.

Baldwin Wallace 78
Wittenberg 73 75 78 79
Dayton 80 81 87 89 91
Juniata 73
Allegheny 90
Widener 77 81
W&J 92 94
Lycoming 90 97

crazy looking at the numbers...

I guess we have to define success.

Is it a Cortland like brief moment in time? 15 years for Fisher and Alfred? 40 years for IC?

And then what's the peak? A national title? Being in the mix?

Having worked in higher education for a long time, I think it really comes down to whether the institution as a whole wants to be a success. This isn't basketball, where you can get to the Sweet 16 on the backs of six guys, or wrestling or track, where a team title is possible if you have a dozen. You've got to be strong on both sides of the ball, and you've got to have depth pieces for special teams and different looks.

That simply requires a different level of institutional support than many schools want to offer, or are able to

I guess I really have in mind top-tier success - contending for titles on a sustained basis.  I remain baffled by the fact that no East team has played in a Stagg Bowl in the last two decades, and no one but Rowan has done it since 1991.  That's a long, long time without a single real contender. 

I certainly agree that in the end, a lot of it comes down to institutional support.  You've got to recruit and coach the right kids, but you also have to get 100+ guys through admissions and financial aid.  My hunch is a lot of higher-level success comes down to what (or rather, who) you can get through those two offices; good coaches, facilities, etc. are just the ante.

How many teams from Ohio or PA (besides Mt. Union) have played in a Stagg?  Makes it no so much an "east" problem if you look at it that way.

Right and do other East states (from 1973-1997 which would be 25 games):

Ithaca: 74,75,79,80,85,88,91
Rowan: 93,95,96 (and two in 98,99 and there was also that Bridgewater clock incident of 2001)
Union: 83,89
Salisbury: 86
Wagner: 87

More than half of the Stagg Bowls before 1997 had a team from the "East" in them.  Include PA and 22/25 Stagg Bowls had an "eastern" team there.  Not sure what was going on with the WIAC or MIAC or California/Texas teams back then either though.

[Jonny Utah]

Reading through the last few pages many good points have been made regarding what I believe to be a very good question. What does a program have to do to reach that top tier of d3 football? I really appreciate Wally's point but I think after it being decades since an eastern program made waves in that top tier many of us have become frustrated and admittedly confused at the east's disappearance from the top tier of d3 football.

I think good points have been made regarding the importance of building a program that is supported by the top admins right through the educators and even the students. Almost a culture. Yet, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, IC seems like they have all of those pieces (which may explain their consistency as really the top program in the east over a very long period of time) and still are unable to take that next step. This is certainly not meant as a slight on the Bombers but a true compliment. One that makes the point that even our best and most consistent team isn't getting there).

It also seems to me that the level of football played at the high school level in NYS is just not very high. I know when looking at HS teams here in the Capital Region/section #2, the level of play just does not seem very good (consistently) in comparison to much of the state, which in turn seems to really lack behind the true football hotbeds.

I don't know much but I do know this, we here in the east are dying for a team to break into that top tier, even if for one season. Maybe it won't happen and maybe, to Wally's point, we really do have some high level d3 football being played in this region by some teams that just fall short of that almost unrealistic top tier. I love the d3 football played here in NY and have done so since the early 80's. I have a profound respect for the excellent student athletes and all they bring each season, each week. Yet admittedly there is still that hope, that desire for a true east region team be it IC, Cortland, Brockport, Del Val, RPI, Hobart, Union, and on and on to make the leap.

A tho no I sometimes wonder is how much the East's fall can be traced to the prevalence of FCS and D2 programs in the east.  If you look at the late 80s D3 landscape, it's striking how many east programs jumped up in later years.  There more than two dozen in FCS programs concentrated in the northeast.  There are none in MI or MN: one in WI; four in IL; three each in Indiana and Ohio. A lot of the studs that went to Ithaca and Union in the 1980s go to UAlbany and their ilk today.

I think the FCS/D2 programs have made an impact.  I also think the Nescac schools have stepped up their football programs to higher levels as well and have impacted some of the recruiting in the east.

On the other hand I noticed a new thing this past weekend.  I went to he Fitchburg State/Dean game on Sat at Dean.  Nice little field with small stands that were full.  Free food for "visitors"!!.  Smaller than most HS stadiums, even in MA.  Dean is a type of school that exists in every state in the US.  You do not travel more than 2 hours to go to a school like Dean (really the only way I can put it).  Real nice campus, some decent programs and what appears to be good school spirit, but after that it is what it is, a local school for local kids.  Fitchburg State is a MA state school that is similar.  It is a little more established and is bigger with more support, but also a school that you really shouldn't be travelling more than two hours to go to.

So in the game I notice right off the bat the Dean QB #16 make some real nice throws and make some good decisions.  He is very comfortable in the pocket and his poise with his size (looked 6'3) made him stand out.  Fitchburg State's QB also solid with great poise in the pocket.  Not as tall as the Dean QB but still looked like he could sling the ball.  So I go to my phone and check out the two QBs.  The Dean QB (Nathan Cisco) is a d1 Transfer from Idaho.  IDAHO.  From Tennessee originally and gets a d1 FCS offer at Idaho and eventually transfers to Dean.  The Fitchburg State QB (Rocky Marchitelli) is from Colorado.  Not Worcester or Lunenburg, MA where you would expect a MASCAC QB to be from, but from Gunnison, Colorado.....

Anyway Fitchburg has about 20 kids from outside New England on the roster, while Dean has 31 kids from outside NE.  And these kids aren't from NY or NJ.  Many of the Dean kids are from Colorado and Georgia. 

Anyway I don't really know what to do with this information but I'm betting the rosters of these colleges in 1985 (Dean didn't have football then) were 100% from MA.  Now I think of LL/E8 schools.  Why aren't they getting 20-25 kids from GA or TX?  Does Dean have more money to give out?  Does Dean have to recruit these places to field a team?

I get that there are limited QB spots at any level of college ball but I was really suprised to see an Idaho transfer from TN as the Dean quarterback.

[Ice Bear]

Reading through the last few pages many good points have been made regarding what I believe to be a very good question. What does a program have to do to reach that top tier of d3 football? I really appreciate Wally's point but I think after it being decades since an eastern program made waves in that top tier many of us have become frustrated and admittedly confused at the east's disappearance from the top tier of d3 football.

I think good points have been made regarding the importance of building a program that is supported by the top admins right through the educators and even the students. Almost a culture. Yet, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, IC seems like they have all of those pieces (which may explain their consistency as really the top program in the east over a very long period of time) and still are unable to take that next step. This is certainly not meant as a slight on the Bombers but a true compliment. One that makes the point that even our best and most consistent team isn't getting there).

It also seems to me that the level of football played at the high school level in NYS is just not very high. I know when looking at HS teams here in the Capital Region/section #2, the level of play just does not seem very good (consistently) in comparison to much of the state, which in turn seems to really lack behind the true football hotbeds.

I don't know much but I do know this, we here in the east are dying for a team to break into that top tier, even if for one season. Maybe it won't happen and maybe, to Wally's point, we really do have some high level d3 football being played in this region by some teams that just fall short of that almost unrealistic top tier. I love the d3 football played here in NY and have done so since the early 80's. I have a profound respect for the excellent student athletes and all they bring each season, each week. Yet admittedly there is still that hope, that desire for a true east region team be it IC, Cortland, Brockport, Del Val, RPI, Hobart, Union, and on and on to make the leap.

A tho no I sometimes wonder is how much the East's fall can be traced to the prevalence of FCS and D2 programs in the east.  If you look at the late 80s D3 landscape, it's striking how many east programs jumped up in later years.  There more than two dozen in FCS programs concentrated in the northeast.  There are none in MI or MN: one in WI; four in IL; three each in Indiana and Ohio. A lot of the studs that went to Ithaca and Union in the 1980s go to UAlbany and their ilk today.

I think the FCS/D2 programs have made an impact.  I also think the Nescac schools have stepped up their football programs to higher levels as well and have impacted some of the recruiting in the east.

On the other hand I noticed a new thing this past weekend.  I went to he Fitchburg State/Dean game on Sat at Dean.  Nice little field with small stands that were full.  Free food for "visitors"!!.  Smaller than most HS stadiums, even in MA.  Dean is a type of school that exists in every state in the US.  You do not travel more than 2 hours to go to a school like Dean (really the only way I can put it).  Real nice campus, some decent programs and what appears to be good school spirit, but after that it is what it is, a local school for local kids.  Fitchburg State is a MA state school that is similar.  It is a little more established and is bigger with more support, but also a school that you really shouldn't be travelling more than two hours to go to.

So in the game I notice right off the bat the Dean QB #16 make some real nice throws and make some good decisions.  He is very comfortable in the pocket and his poise with his size (looked 6'3) made him stand out.  Fitchburg State's QB also solid with great poise in the pocket.  Not as tall as the Dean QB but still looked like he could sling the ball.  So I go to my phone and check out the two QBs.  The Dean QB (Nathan Cisco) is a d1 Transfer from Idaho.  IDAHO.  From Tennessee originally and gets a d1 FCS offer at Idaho and eventually transfers to Dean.  The Fitchburg State QB (Rocky Marchitelli) is from Colorado.  Not Worcester or Lunenburg, MA where you would expect a MASCAC QB to be from, but from Gunnison, Colorado.....

Anyway Fitchburg has about 20 kids from outside New England on the roster, while Dean has 31 kids from outside NE.  And these kids aren't from NY or NJ.  Many of the Dean kids are from Colorado and Georgia. 

Anyway I don't really know what to do with this information but I'm betting the rosters of these colleges in 1985 (Dean didn't have football then) were 100% from MA.  Now I think of LL/E8 schools.  Why aren't they getting 20-25 kids from GA or TX?  Does Dean have more money to give out?  Does Dean have to recruit these places to field a team?

I get that there are limited QB spots at any level of college ball but I was really surprised to see an Idaho transfer from TN as the Dean quarterback.

This is very interesting Utah. I would NEVER have guessed this (admitting some ignorance here) but these out of state numbers for these two schools really stand out to me. Any thoughts on this anyone? I'm curious what everyone else thinks about this?

[CNU85]

"Support"
I get that these schools are all competing for the same kids essentially.
Sure there are some institutions that have a traditionally higher tuition, but in the grand scheme the kids are the same bunch.
Some may think that state schools have a tuition advantage- not so fast my friend- I have 2 in college now- one at a SUNY - one at a private.
SUNY has cost us MORE than the private even though tuition is in the very high 30s!

Good insight. Not many understand that there is a difference between "sticker price" and what actually leaves your pocket until it is time for that money to actually leave your pocket!

[fisheralum91]

As a parent of 4 you have to look into EVERYTHING when it comes to education.
Sticker price, Grad rates, placement rates etc.
It always drove me nuts when fellow parents would rip on cost of private Higher Ed and applaud state edus
One word for any parents out there looking-
If everything is equal- look for the hidden fees and conditions of "free tuition"
Excelsior is amazing- but holy smoke read the fine print!

[IC798891]

The E8, LL, and CC are all good leagues that pretty consistently churn out really strong champions that don't get enough credit because people are holding them to a Stagg-Bowl-or-you-stink standard.  In the AQ era of the championship (1998-present), 13 teams in total have even played for a Stagg Bowl.  In 25 years.  Thirteen.  It's a ridiculous standard that undermines how good a lot of the football is in this part of the country.

This.

The Stagg Bowl is not everything. Appreciating good football for being good football is great.

[CNU85]

As a parent of 4 you have to look into EVERYTHING when it comes to education.
Sticker price, Grad rates, placement rates etc.
It always drove me nuts when fellow parents would rip on cost of private Higher Ed and applaud state edus
One word for any parents out there looking-
If everything is equal- look for the hidden fees and conditions of "free tuition"
Excelsior is amazing- but holy smoke read the fine print!

So very true. I have 2 adult children and there are so many factors involved. And there is no such thing as apples to apples comparison. It's a fruit salad. Apples to oranges to grapes to pineapple to cherries etc....drives you nuts. And it isn't always about money. You want your kid to be in a place where there is a fit and they can become successful (by whatever definition they use to define success).

My son decided on a technical college and has a degree in Network Security. My daughter started at JMU and transferred to CNU after one semester. Long story but she couldn't chase her dream while at JMU. She graduated Magna Cum Laude with a degree in Economics and became a professional dancer. She's old (32) and now choreographs and teaches. I like to ask her how it feels to be "washed up" at 32!!!

Both kids had students loans that, fortunately, were paid off quickly. I am so glad that part of life is behind me. Best of luck to you and your kids!

Cheers!