FB: Empire 8

[theoriginalupstate]

i'd like to see kings/lyco/west conn added to repace 'wich....

[theoriginalupstate]

I was wondering how U of R scored into the UAA.  That conference is basketball just seems to be so randomly put together.  If they went to the E8 it would save dramatically on travel and it's not a bad conference, Fisher always has a strong team and they have a rivalry going with U of R in basketball as well.  Just a thought though. 

Honestly i dont think the interest would be there from the UofR.....

[Jonny Utah]

Fredonia is a public school.  If adding football made sense for the Blue Devils, that would give the SUNY schools six football playing members.  If would be just as easy to find one affiliate (hello West Conn) as it would be crack the E8.

While we're on the subject...

I don't see a reason as e8 will still get two bids every year

I'll give you three reasons -- Carnegie Mellon, Wesley and Salisbury.

As the number of Pool B eligible teams drops, so do the number of available Pool B slots.  This year the PAC teams left Pool B.  Next year the NWC teams do the same.  By 2011 several teams playing in the new St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference (SLIAC) will also have an automatic bid.  So maybe there are two Pool B bids left by 2011.

The teams fighting for those bids are the UAA, Empire 6, the NAC, some spare independents and the remnants of the ACFC.  Bbased on current talent levels, that leaves Alfred, Ithaca, Springfield, St. John Fisher, Wesley, Salisbury and the top UAA teams fighting for two bids every year.  How confident are you that two of the E6 will be better than Salisbury, Wesley and the UAA every year?

If you want to be pessimistic, you could even envision a situation where a UAA team and Wesley/Salisbury finish 9-1 or better (while the Empire 6 beat up on each other.  In that case, there's no guarantee any E6 teams make the playoffs.

Maybe this sounds pessimistic and it's admittedly hypothetical.  But nearly every coach I've talked to -- those with and without AQs -- has said they'd rather have an AQ than not. 

That's why the schools in Alabama and Georgia will travel to St. Louis for  in-conference games.  That's why the Empire 8 brought in affiliate members to begin with.  And that's why I think you'll see the E6 push to replace Norwich long before 2011 rolls around.

Very true about the pool B stuff, but it still would work itself out in the end.  A 9-1 second place E8 team is going to get that pool B bid while the 10-0 champ (with no AQ) would get one as well.  If you go 8-2 or 7-3 you dont deserve it and there shouldnt be too much complaining.

UR wouldnt leave the LL in football.  Absoutly no reason to.

[BobNapoleone]

Fredonia is a public school.  If adding football made sense for the Blue Devils, that would give the SUNY schools six football playing members.  If would be just as easy to find one affiliate (hello West Conn) as it would be crack the E8.

While we're on the subject...

I don't see a reason as e8 will still get two bids every year

I'll give you three reasons -- Carnegie Mellon, Wesley and Salisbury.

As the number of Pool B eligible teams drops, so do the number of available Pool B slots.  This year the PAC teams left Pool B.  Next year the NWC teams do the same.  By 2011 several teams playing in the new St. Louis Intercollegiate Athletic Conference (SLIAC) will also have an automatic bid.  So maybe there are two Pool B bids left by 2011.

The teams fighting for those bids are the UAA, Empire 6, the NAC, some spare independents and the remnants of the ACFC.  Bbased on current talent levels, that leaves Alfred, Ithaca, Springfield, St. John Fisher, Wesley, Salisbury and the top UAA teams fighting for two bids every year.  How confident are you that two of the E6 will be better than Salisbury, Wesley and the UAA every year?

If you want to be pessimistic, you could even envision a situation where a UAA team and Wesley/Salisbury finish 9-1 or better (while the Empire 6 beat up on each other.  In that case, there's no guarantee any E6 teams make the playoffs.

Maybe this sounds pessimistic and it's admittedly hypothetical.  But nearly every coach I've talked to -- those with and without AQs -- has said they'd rather have an AQ than not. 

That's why the schools in Alabama and Georgia will travel to St. Louis for  in-conference games.  That's why the Empire 8 brought in affiliate members to begin with.  And that's why I think you'll see the E6 push to replace Norwich long before 2011 rolls around.

and.....THAT is why he is known as a "guru"......makes perfect sense.

So when the E6 gets back up to "8"....does that mean we get a "soft" First round playoff game.......I can't see Norwich traveling to SJF, IC, Spfld or Alfred to get pummeled.....how does that help anybody??

Would Rowan show up to even play them???

Hopefuly the E8 Fathers are already at work on this.......

[FisherAlum05]

In 2005, I had heard rumors about Lebanon Valley moving from the MAC to the E8.  I'm not sure where they are located, somewhere in PA I know.  Maybe that could be something in the works.  Whatever happens I'm sure they will fill the conference by 2011. 

[Pat Coleman]

I was wondering how U of R scored into the UAA.  That conference is basketball just seems to be so randomly put together.   

Are you kidding? Look at the eight schools and tell me what they all have in common.

This is far from random.

And I don't share Gordon's pessimism -- I see Wesley, Salisbury and Frostburg State joining Gallaudet and affiliates in the Capital Athletic Conference for football. Villa Julie has talked about adding football. The UAA has had two playoff teams in eight seasons, so they are not consistently going to take a playoff spot.

Those teams all count toward determining how many Pool B teams get selected, as do the UMAC teams, Chapman and any remaining Pool B teams in 2011.

[John McGraw]

In 2005, I had heard rumors about Lebanon Valley moving from the MAC to the E8.  I'm not sure where they are located, somewhere in PA I know.  Maybe that could be something in the works.  Whatever happens I'm sure they will fill the conference by 2011. 

Located just outside Hershey, PA.

[Frank Rossi]

My guess of how this all comes apart in the end is twofold:

I think Buffalo St., Cortland St., Brockport St., USMMA, Susquehanna and WPI all have loose enough affiliations with their respective conferences that you'll see AT LEAST one of them move by 2009.

I also think that based on playoff access math, we're somewhat overdue for a 33rd (and by 2009, a 34th) playoff team.  That will reduce the issues of Pool B/Pool A mathematical friction re: number of auto-bids vs. # of Pool B bids needed to somehow ensure fair access.  34 teams would force the committee to rank all teams from 1-34 and to give byes to the top two teams.  This isn't too tough to swallow, as anything from 33 and 36 teams would not force a bracket problem.  Once you get between 36 and 48 teams, the brackets will look somewhat screwy.  

So no need to panic yet, but expect some major changes.

[boobyhasgameyo]

I was wondering how U of R scored into the UAA.  That conference is basketball just seems to be so randomly put together.   

Are you kidding? Look at the eight schools and tell me what they all have in common.

This is far from random.

My God Pat you're right!  They all have University in the school title!   How could I be so blind???  Those 8 schools were just meant to be together from the beginning, they are surely the only 8 above average academic  universities in America ( I say only above average as opposed to elite because I don't think kids have their final list down to Yale Harvard and then Brandeis or Case Western Reserve).  They threw caution to the wind and said we are the only 8 schools that fit our criteria and distance be damned we are going to start this association!  The parallel's are so shocking and apparent.  I have never once in my mind thought of U of R without immediately thinking of Emory University, it's just a stone cold fact.  Ron Burgandy would say "It's Science"  The connection between those schools makes so much more sense than being in a New York State based conference.  The UAA are a bunch of star crossed lovers to be sure, minus the sad ending as these 8 and only 8 research based institutions of higher learning will continue to thrive thousands of years from now!

[er1948]

FA91-  the plan for Saterday is to try for the same spot as last year, Big Jim and I hope to meet around 3:30 to beat the gestapo agents to the lot-see ya there, don't forget the uc

[Senor RedTackle]

from John McGraw on the LL board...

Obviously the best thing, suggested by multiple people over the years and by RT this past Saturday, form a super-conference between the E8 and the LL. Of course this would never happen, but it'd solve a lot of scheduling issues.


RT's reponse..

Forget the "like-minded insitutions" rhetoric....let's get real and do something for the football fans of the state and make a super NY conference, like the SEC does...East and West. I don't give a flying shizz if RPI is in the same conf. as Cortland or Brockport....we're not going for the same student anyway and do you think 99.99% of the Pakistani's or Chinamen that go to RPI (the ones that walk past the football game on Sat, stare quizically, then head to the library) would even care (much less know) about the other teams in our conference? Let the NESCAC worry about that snobbiness.  For example, in the SEC, do you think Arkansas or Miss St. is of the same calber school as Vanderbilt?

RT's proposed "NYSAC"..NYS Athletic Conference

West                                                                     East
Alfred                                                                         RPI
Brockport St                                                               Union
St.John Fisher                                                            Harwick
Rochester                                                                  St.Lawrence
Buffalo St.                                                                  Utica
Cortland St.                                                               Ithaca
                                                                                  Kings Point

Is RT missing anyone? Then you follow a format like the SEC and do crossover games but keep traditional rivalries every year (Corica Jug, Shooz game, et) It was tough but to balance, RT split up Cortland and Ithaca. The west looks a bit loaded on paper so another reason RT put IC in the east

[boobyhasgameyo]

While I also think they would never go for that, I think it's a great idea.  Just envisioning such a super conference if only for the briefest of moments gave my dull life meaning.   

[Frank Rossi]

from John McGraw on the LL board...

Obviously the best thing, suggested by multiple people over the years and by RT this past Saturday, form a super-conference between the E8 and the LL. Of course this would never happen, but it'd solve a lot of scheduling issues.


RT's reponse..

Forget the "like-minded insitutions" rhetoric....let's get real and do something for the football fans of the state and make a super NY conference, like the SEC does...East and West. I don't give a flying shizz if RPI is in the same conf. as Cortland or Brockport....we're not going for the same student anyway and do you think 99.99% of the Pakistani's or Chinamen that go to RPI (the ones that walk past the football game on Sat, stare quizically, then head to the library) would even care (much less know) about the other teams in our conference? Let the NESCAC worry about that snobbiness.  For example, in the SEC, do you think Arkansas or Miss St. is of the same calber school as Vanderbilt?

RT's proposed "NYSAC"..NYS Athletic Conference

West                                                                     East
Alfred                                                                         RPI
Brockport St                                                               Union
St.John Fisher                                                            Harwick
Rochester                                                                  St.Lawrence
Buffalo St.                                                                  Utica
Cortland St.                                                               Ithaca
                                                                                  Kings Point

Is RT missing anyone? Then you follow a format like the SEC and do crossover games but keep traditional rivalries every year (Corica Jug, Shooz game, et) It was tough but to balance, RT split up Cortland and Ithaca. The west looks a bit loaded on paper so another reason RT put IC in the east

However, what do you gain from this?  If 14 teams can sustain two separate conferences, then they're guaranteed two Pool A slots and access to Pool C.  Under your plan, you have one Pool A and only access to Pool C.  The other idea we had discussed on the WABY broadcast was more practical:  maintain the separate conferences, but come up with an NFL-type interconference scheduling agreement by which the top E8 team plays the top LL team to open the season, etc. (based on prior year records).  This would allow the teams to maintain some semblence of a fair out-of-conference schedule, retain several playoff slots and avoid the like-minded BS.  I don't like the "Superconference" idea at all.

[gordonmann]

I see Wesley, Salisbury and Frostburg State joining Gallaudet and affiliates in the Capital Athletic Conference for football. Villa Julie has talked about adding football. The UAA has had two playoff teams in eight seasons, so they are not consistently going to take a playoff spot

Interesting.  I hadn't heard about the possibility of a CAC football conference before. That would still be a couple schools short of an AQ and there aren't many affiliates left to be had, unless schools (like VJC) add football.

To clarify, I'm not saying the E6 would never get a playoff bid in the new alignment.  But I think it would be very tough to get two.

And I stay by my earlier statements about the AQ.  Coaches like them.  Coaches want them.  And I don't think the coaches in the E8 are any different.

[gordonmann]

They don't make schedules based on records, but the NCAC and UAA have an agreement to play each other out of conference.  It helps the few UAA teams fill out their schedule on a regular basis.