FB: Empire 8

[AUPepBand]

Booby,

I didn't try and bring it up, I did.  Also, I don't see you arguing that my point is irrelevant.

Now let me get back to obsessing about how Jon Gruden is going to torpedo our season...

God the stadium sure does look good on tv!

So long as they keep the cameras off the visiting side bleachers. Oh wait, you can't see them behind the team standing on the sidelines anyway. Never mind.

[JQV]

Booby you are so touchy.

I have pointed out in the past, and am pointing out again, that Fisher has yet to prove an ability to maintain their current status.  I have not, and will not, make the argumen that they can't do it.

Buff State, Hobart, Brockport, Union, Cortland, RPI, (hell, why not add Montclair and Rowan too) et al all hit lean years.  IC didn't.

Those other programs can be apples, oranges, bananas, kiwi, mango, and the point is still relevant.  Each situation looked to be building momentum towards continued elite status in the state/Region and faded back to the pack.

If Fisher makes it last, great.  If not, great.  I really couldn't care less.  That doesn't make my point any less relevant though.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Well Jose I guess I just admire how you've built up a system in which you can take as many cheap shots as you like and then hide behind the blanket statement that we can't tell what the future holds. 

Also in terms of falling back to the pack and having lean years...It's not like Ithaca finishes every year with 10+ wins, this is one thing that has been annoying.  It's nice to have that consecutive streak of above .500 records but that does not make your team a national power.  You even included Rowan on that list....Rowan has accomplished a hell of a lot more than Ithaca the past 15 years, while they were busy making deep runs into the playoffs every year Ithaca was fighting for ECAC bowls and a plethora of decent but nowhere near amazing 7-4, 7-3 type seasons or barely keeping their streak alive with a couple of seasons in the mid 90's of 6-4, 5-4.  I mean Ithaca hasn't even won a playoff game in 5 years..not exactly a national power...Ithaca is definitely a top tier Eastern region team that never flat out tanks a season, but national power they are not (since 1991 anyway)....

[Jonny Utah]

Well Jose I guess I just admire how you've built up a system in which you can take as many cheap shots as you like and then hide behind the blanket statement that we can't tell what the future holds. 

Also in terms of falling back to the pack and having lean years...It's not like Ithaca finishes every year with 10+ wins, this is one thing that has been annoying.  It's nice to have that consecutive streak of above .500 records but that does not make your team a national power.  You even included Rowan on that list....Rowan has accomplished a hell of a lot more than Ithaca the past 15 years, while they were busy making deep runs into the playoffs every year Ithaca was fighting for ECAC bowls and a plethora of decent but nowhere near amazing 7-4, 7-3 type seasons or barely keeping their streak alive with a couple of seasons in the mid 90's of 6-4, 5-4.  I mean Ithaca hasn't even won a playoff game in 5 years..not exactly a national power...Ithaca is definitely a top tier Eastern region team that never flat out tanks a season, but national power they are not (since 1991 anyway)....

whoa!...

A few points on what makes teams "powers" or what helps them I think

- I don't think the facilities make that much of a difference, and I don't think the Bills playing there makes much of a difference.  Have you guys ever heard of Bryant College football?  Me neither, but the New England Patriots practiced there untill 2003.

-SJF, Ithaca, Mt Union, and other teams have had long success because of coaching stability.  Ithaca has always had great teams because they have had 2 coaches over the last 40 years.  SJF has been great because they have had the same coaching staff (and an IC guy came in, made them good and is now gone...what now??) Just kidding on that last one of course.  Mt Union...same thing, coach there for 30 years.  Now Hartwick?  who knows,  they were great for a few years under coach stetson, and now with another coach they are looking promising.  But coaching is the #1 factor in this

-SJF is a good school, as is Ithaca.  That helps

-SJF is also in a good location.  Suburb outside a large city where kids from nearby cities can go to (Syracuse, Buffalo) makes it attractive.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Yeah just so we are clear I respect Ithaca's program and what they have done, and I hope Fisher will produce the same kind of storied history when we look back on Fisher's first 70+ years of football as Ithaca can when looking back on theirs. 

And so we are extra clear I consider the term National Power to be a term that applies to an ever changing number of teams (with the exception of Mount Union apparently) that have accomplished something on the national stage.  This would mean in my definition they would have to not only advance out of their region in the playoffs, but defeat another region's top team as well....Basically the top 2 teams at the end of the year.  So currently it is Mount Union and Whitewater.  Rowan, St. Johns, Bridgewater, etc. would all have fallen into that category at some point this decade.

The notch below is what I would say are the regional powers.  Formidable and talented teams but just haven't made any dent nationally.  Ithaca has definitely been a top Regional team, and Fisher has become one over the past 5 years.  Teams that have come into this at one point or another during the East are teams like Fisher, RPI, Union, etc.   

So that's what I mean when saying Ithaca was once a national power but have since been a consistent Regional threat, which is obviously still very good.

Basically......I love you Ithaca guys

HEY MALE LOVE PRIDE

[theoriginalupstate]

Good discussions, +K all around (even to the wick faithful)!!

Saxondeuce, give Kolmer a call he tried calling you but couldnt get ahold of you.

Welcome to the boards Timz81, hopefully a sane SC guy will give us good perspective on them!

On to Boobs and Jose's continuing lovers quarrel...

IC has seen the SJF's of the east come and go every 5 years so Jose can say stick around for more than 10 years and then talk.  Even though IC hasnt been great they have been consistantly winning.  Their downs are a 7 win season, other schools in the east would be tickled pink with 7 wins.  

However, SJF has more going for them than those other schools.  With the Bills/Facilities/Location/School and probably most important is how often the school is advertised.  The name is everywhere in TV ads, sports talk radio, newspaper articles, billboards and a bunch of other avenues the school uses.  SJF is everywhere in WNY!  The other shools cant say the same thing when they were going through their respective runs.  SJF is set up to have a great run with the school backing them, the advertising and the Bills being there.  

Both of you are right so just kiss and make up...

[Jonny Utah]

Upstate- i agree- there is also the fact that there will be no suprises this year-Wick wont come out of nowhere.

Listen - before you wick guys blow a gasket--you had a hell of a season- i was at the fisher game and you played your hearts out.  I just dont think you have the staying power to keep up with the big boys.  One more good season--pobably--after that who knows.


But before you all start going nuts---it took a LONG time for Fisher to get where they are today--just glad that they got there!!
Way too much time as the door mat!

Well, I will give you my reasons why I think Wick will have another impactful year in the Empire 8.

They return the best QB in D-3. Bottom line, this guy can play anywhere. He is just physically better then anyone in the Empire 8, and unlike an impact running back or receiver, he touches the ball every play (simple because Wick throws the ball every play). They also return an All-American WR, who just had one of the best seasons stats-wise in the history of the NCAA, and was an impact player against both the cupcakes and the big boys. The whole line is returning. There biggest issue on offense if they replace Crea's productivity?
Defensively they lose a few impact players (all-conference linebacker and a big DT) but when you score 35+ points a game, it gives the defense a lot more leeway in amount of points they give up.
As long as Boltus is on the field, I would hate to be the D-Coordinator game-planning against Hartwick.

The reason I thought Ithaca was ranked higher then I believe they should have been is real simple. Their offence revolves around a power running game, which sets up the play action pass. Now they lose the all-time leading rusher in the programs history, which says a lot, as well as the back-up RB and a truly great blocking fullback. Who's the replacement? We don't know. The 3rd string never has a lot of real experience. Plus, they lose 2 players on an offensive line that wasn't up to Ithaca's past standards. What happens if they don't find a replacement for all these positions? Now they do return good receivers, and an AA Tight End. But when was the last time you truly saw a TE win games based on their ability at any level? They get first downs and keep the ball moving, but for the most part none of them are true speed game breakers.

Then they are forced to throw the ball. Now when was the last time Ithaca was successful in spreading it out and air-mail it down the field, without the help of their power running game? I can't remember. My proof of their lack of passing in the recent years has been that they haven't had the ability to comeback from a two score deficit since the old QB was in town.
The bottom line is that Ithaca's offence revolves around there running game, and unless they find replacements for all of these positions, then the pressures going to really be on the QB. Only then will we really find out if can truly carry a team. The kid is truly a great talent, and I wish him the best on a successful season (except when they play Wick of course), but to rate Ithaca as a team in the top 20 is a bit of a stretch when you really break it down.

1)Boltus
Ive never seen him play, so my opinion can be taken with a grain of salt.  But I did see Norwich and Curry play and I know what their defenses are like compared to IC, SJF, Cortland and Mt. Union.  I also assume that Hartwick is running not just a spread, but a spread where the team passes 75%+ instead of the spread like WVA and Florida runs where the passing is less than 50%.  So he is going to throw the ball more and have better stats.  Dont get me wrong, you cant just throw the ball 70 times a game and still be good but lets look at a few other games.

Against Curry he was 28/64 with 5 Ints and 5 sacks.
Against Norwich he was 11/30 with 1 Int and 4 sacks.

I mean, those are two pretty average defenses (below average with the case of Norwich) and Boltus did not do the job.  Did these teams learn from the IC/SJF tapes?  Will IC/SJF learn next year?  I say they both do.

2) Rankings
Again, Im not suprised about Ithacas ranking.  You have to look at what these teams did at the end of last year, where there were no suprises, and where teams have a feel for their offenses and for what the other teams are doing (teams have 6-7 tapes of other league teams at this point).  If Cortland is going to be ranked in this thing, then IC has to be ranked above them.  Its that simple in my mind.  And IC does not revolve around a power running game.  They are a multipe I-pro team with the ability to go guns and spread.  They can throw as well as they can run, and they proved that in the MUC game where they torched them all over the field.  Looking back, they probably should have passed the ball more.  The replacement at the IC RB should be less of a concern than the replacement QB at SJF.  But SJF has proven that they can fill those holes.  We will see.  

-As for the TE (Weverbaugh), he could play WR just as easy.  Although not as good as Ferenbach, I think Ferenbach could have played TE if asked to.  You wouldnt even have noticed.  Remember Jeff Erne anyone?  He was a WR at the TE slot.

-Again, Ithaca does not rely on the running game.  They are a balanced team as shown in the MUC game.

-And yes Jose, IC ran the Veer opition up untill 1995 where we switched to the west coast offense you still see variables of today.  Neil Wideman was a QB that was not an option QB and was Ithacas first drop back QB in recent history.

[Jonny Utah]

One more thing:

Although I do feel that SJF is ranked in the right spot, I wouldnt have been suprised if they were a few spot lower because of the loss of their QB.  Boston College loses M. Ryan and goes from a final ranking of #12 to #30 this year.  (they also lost other players)

[theoriginalupstate]

-As for the TE (Weverbaugh), he could play WR just as easy.  Although not as good as Ferenbach, I think Ferenbach could have played TE if asked to.  You wouldnt even have noticed.  Remember Jeff Erne anyone?  He was a WR at the TE slot.

Noah was asked to play there, at first he came in as a QB.  He was then switched to TE.  Then he was switched to WR.  

Robinson and Ferenbach were diamonds in the rough for SJF.  Robby was hardly recruited and Noah switched positions twice after coming in as a QB!  He was a 6'2" 220lb WR that could move at the D3 level, man he was a steal!

[Jonny Utah]

-As for the TE (Weverbaugh), he could play WR just as easy.  Although not as good as Ferenbach, I think Ferenbach could have played TE if asked to.  You wouldnt even have noticed.  Remember Jeff Erne anyone?  He was a WR at the TE slot.

Noah was asked to play there, at first he came in as a QB.  He was then switched to TE.  Then he was switched to WR.  

Robinson and Ferenbach were diamonds in the rough for SJF.  Robby was hardly recruited and Noah switched positions twice after coming in as a QB!  He was a 6'2" 220lb WR that could move at the D3 level, man he was a steal!

Yea he is in the top 5-10 players I have ever seen at the d3 level.

[theoriginalupstate]

I couldnt immagine what his numbers would of been like if he didnt have a bunch of nagging injuries his sophmore year and a consistant QB his senior year...

[Timz81]

Welcome to the boards Timz81, hopefully a sane SC guy will give us good perspective on them!

thanks upstate...i'll do my best. i think SC will compete this year and with their schedule i think they'll go 7-3 at worst. definitely a possibility for some upsets.  they're young but theres talent there.

[PrideFan1]

my insight hasnt been good? lol

[Jonny Utah]

Also forgot to mention that Hartwick has the 2nd easiest non-league schedule in the country (Becker, WNEC and Mt. Ida).

(Coast Guard is 1st with 0 nonleague games)

[superman57]

Boltus is good, he fits into the offense well, but he is not even in the top 5 nationally, Guys like Michaelcki or whatever his name is, knows how to run a game, Boltus is still missing that he can put up stats, but if he could run a game, they would not of lost to the likes of WNEC and Curry, it's great to beat Fisher and Ithaca, but a great person once taught me you are judged on your last performance, and your last performance you gave the NEFC their first playoff win EVER... as far as Fisher and Ithaca, Fisher has had a strong run, I will be interested to see how they do in the next two years... Ithaca is always gonna be good, but I am waiting to see them be great again