FB: Empire 8

[superman57]

This is where I see 10-6 I could also see 8-8 and 12-4 but again you never know

@ Miami     CBS WIN    
Sunday, 09/14/08    4:15 PM    New England    New England    LossCBS    
Monday, 09/22/08    8:30 PM    San Diego    @ San Diego    ESPN    Loss
Sunday, 09/28/08    1:00 PM    Arizona    Arizona    WINFOX    
BYE          BYE       
Sunday, 10/12/08    1:00 PM    Cincinnati    Cincinnati    WINCBS    
Sunday, 10/19/08    4:15 PM    Oakland    @ Oakland    WINCBS    
Sunday, 10/26/08    1:00 PM    Kansas City    Kansas City    CBS    WIN
Sunday, 11/02/08    1:00 PM    Buffalo    @ Buffalo    CBS    WIN
Sunday, 11/09/08    1:00 PM    St. Louis    St. Louis    FOX    LOSS
Thursday, 11/13/08    8:15 PM    New England    @ New England LOSS   NFL Network & CW11    
Sunday, 11/23/08    TBA*    Tennessee    @ Tennessee    TBA*WIN    
Sunday, 11/30/08    TBA*    Denver    Denver    TBA*    LOSS
Sunday, 12/07/08    TBA*    San Francisco    @ San Francisco    WINTBA*    
Sunday, 12/14/08    TBA*    Buffalo    Buffalo    TBA*WIN    
Sunday, 12/21/08    TBA*    Seattle    @ Seattle    TBA*    LOSS
Sunday, 12/28/08    TBA*    Miami    Miami    TBA*    WIN

[saxondeuce]

OK - a couple points in addition to what was said already.

1)  Best QB in D3?  Come on.  first of all, theres a guy on the front page wearing purple and white that you should read about.  Also - (and I think he's a phenomenal QB) but I don't think Boltus starts for IC, Fisher or Alfred last year.  Regardless of the outcome of a couple of those games.

I know all about Greg Micheli, and i would pick boltus over him. My reasoning is that at mount union they have alot more talent there to work with than hartwick does. Give boltus a Pierre garcon type reciever, a dominating running back, and a dominating defense, and watch what he does. Im not even gonna comment on that he wouldnt have started on Ithaca, fisher, or alfred last year, that would be too easy.  Im my opinion Paul Keely (Alfred) + Chris Sharpe (Springfield) = Jason Boltus!

its "Keeley"...that really irriates me ha ha..  i guess i kind of understand what your saying??...chris sharpe huh, if i had that kind of speed, i may have been playing somewhere else haha.... 

[saxondeuce]

Good discussions, +K all around (even to the wick faithful)!!

Saxondeuce, give Kolmer a call he tried calling you but couldnt get ahold of you.

Welcome to the boards Timz81, hopefully a sane SC guy will give us good perspective on them!

On to Boobs and Jose's continuing lovers quarrel...

IC has seen the SJF's of the east come and go every 5 years so Jose can say stick around for more than 10 years and then talk.  Even though IC hasnt been great they have been consistantly winning.  Their downs are a 7 win season, other schools in the east would be tickled pink with 7 wins.  

However, SJF has more going for them than those other schools.  With the Bills/Facilities/Location/School and probably most important is how often the school is advertised.  The name is everywhere in TV ads, sports talk radio, newspaper articles, billboards and a bunch of other avenues the school uses.  SJF is everywhere in WNY!  The other shools cant say the same thing when they were going through their respective runs.  SJF is set up to have a great run with the school backing them, the advertising and the Bills being there.  

Both of you are right so just kiss and make up...

Got it...he cant get a hold of me because I suspended my cell phone service until I get back to the states...but i will give him a call in the very near future...thanks for the heads up.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Favre is a New York Jet... god help us all.... now I want the Jets to trade Favre Minnesota

If the Jets did that, they would have to give the Packers 3 first round draft picks.  The Packers knew what they were doing evidently haha

[fisheralum91]

wow - the evening crew has been busy!
now that the gripe fest is over--fisher guys---gimme some info on camp!!!

[JQV]

now that the gripe fest is over

In all honesty, I don't even understand why that point is so upsetting.  It seems like most of the other Fisher guys tend to agree with me.

[fisheralum91]

jose- that is between you and booby.
ill just sit back and read.
i too am tired of the "respect" "dynasty" and "rivalry" talk myself.
just play the damn games.
did fisher suck in the late 80's and early 90's? Yes.
Have they grown into a great program? Yes.
Will it last?  Who the hell knows...but i sure hope so!

[AUPepBand]

A few points on what makes teams "powers" or what helps them I think

-SJF, Ithaca, Mt Union, and other teams have had long success because of coaching stability.  Ithaca has always had great teams because they have had 2 coaches over the last 40 years.  SJF has been great because they have had the same coaching staff (and an IC guy came in, made them good and is now gone...what now??) Just kidding on that last one of course.  Mt Union...same thing, coach there for 30 years.  Now Hartwick?  who knows,  they were great for a few years under coach stetson, and now with another coach they are looking promising.  But coaching is the #1 factor in this

Pep remembers when Ol' Alex Yunevich was coaching at Alfred, the Saxons didn't regularly play Ithaca. It was early in Butterfield's career and the Bombers were playing a much more rugged schedule with then DII teams from American International and Springfield, C.W. Post, et al. When Alfred did begin playing Ithaca, the Bombers were always tough and best known for being fundamentally sound. They always excelled in blocking and tackling. Pep attributes the stability of the IC program to Butterfield, whose early struggles paid off nicely beginning in the 1970s when the NCAA started the playoffs. He took them to the dance and after a few shots, brought home some national titles.

When Butterfield retired, a long-time assistant (Coach Welch) followed in his footsteps. But it seems that Welch, while maintaining a winning program, hasn't brought the school any national titles. Now Pep will admit that D3 football has grown in popularity since the 70s and colleges field huge squads. Likewise, emergence of programs such as Mount Union has raised the bar, so to speak. D3 football is much more competitive than Pep remembers seeing as a lad.

Pep wonders (out loud) whether IC fans think the title drought could be attributed to coaching (Pep read Lois' book, Butterfield was special), higher level of D3 competition or some combination thereof?

Pep remembers his Saxons fighting out a win over Ithaca at Merrill Field (1990?) when the Bombers were defending national champs. It's no easier today for AU to beat IC...the Bombers are always solid, but there's something about beating a defending national champ!

P.S. Pep would like to add that the IC program has been a football coach factory! AU will scrimmage Muhlenberg Aug. 30 in Binghamton and the Mules were 11-1 in 2007 with an IC grad (Mike Donnelly '75) at the reins, went 10-0, beat Salisbury in the NCAAs, then lost to Wesley.

[JQV]

Pep,

I don't think the title drought can be attributed to coaching, I think it has one cause that can be broken down into three sub-categories:

Basically, IC isn't getting the same players it got in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.  I think that has happened for three reasons:

1) The most basic cause is the number of options in the area.  Think of all the schools that have started programs (or decided to take a program seriously that was previously just an activity for interested students) in the last 20-30 years.  Obviously, more teams = lesser concentration of talent.  It is no different than the effect expansion has had on pitching in the big leagues.  Also, a lot of the newer programs (or reinvigorated programs) are in areas where IC previously got a lot of talent.  Namely, Rochester and NJ.  When IC started splitting talent in those areas with local schools, the program took a hit.

2) IC's Academic Standing.  The IC I graduated from is a lot different than the IC the players on those National Championship teams graduated from.  By no means am I implying that higher academic requirements = less athletic students because I think that argument is ****.  But higher academic requirements = fewer students of all stripe (athletic or not) that can get in.  When the number of kids that qualify for admission goes down, the pool of potential athletes is decreased.  Obviously, you can still win and have high academic standards (RPI proves this point) but it makes it a lot more difficult.  I sent a few hoops players from Florida to my old coach at IC and he told me that he can't even really consider a kid that scored lower than 1150 on his SAT (or whatever the new 1150 would be since they changed the SAT points).

3) The biggest reason = $$$$$$$$.  Not only has IC gotten more expensive but the financial aid has decreased.  In 1994, IC changed its financial aid system.  In the past, you had to show both need and talent.  Now, you can show either need or talent.  Therefore, a lot more kids qualify for aid which seems good.  But, more kids qualifying for aid means each kid gets less aid.  Pair that with the increases in tuition and it makes for a tough choice for a high school athlete.  If you are between IC and a SUNY, where do you go?  All other things being equal, you go to the SUNY to avoid $100K in debt...right?

That was oddly long but I think it is a testament to Welch that he has continued to win despite these changes.  These are certainly not problems that Butts had to deal with.

[Jonny Utah]

Pep,

I don't think the title drought can be attributed to coaching, I think it has one cause that can be broken down into three sub-categories:

Basically, IC isn't getting the same players it got in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.  I think that has happened for three reasons:

1) The most basic cause is the number of options in the area.  Think of all the schools that have started programs (or decided to take a program seriously that was previously just an activity for interested students) in the last 20-30 years.  Obviously, more teams = lesser concentration of talent.  It is no different than the effect expansion has had on pitching in the big leagues.  Also, a lot of the newer programs (or reinvigorated programs) are in areas where IC previously got a lot of talent.  Namely, Rochester and NJ.  When IC started splitting talent in those areas with local schools, the program took a hit.

2) IC's Academic Standing.  The IC I graduated from is a lot different than the IC the players on those National Championship teams graduated from.  By no means am I implying that higher academic requirements = less athletic students because I think that argument is ****.  But higher academic requirements = fewer students of all stripe (athletic or not) that can get in.  When the number of kids that qualify for admission goes down, the pool of potential athletes is decreased.  Obviously, you can still win and have high academic standards (RPI proves this point) but it makes it a lot more difficult.  I sent a few hoops players from Florida to my old coach at IC and he told me that he can't even really consider a kid that scored lower than 1150 on his SAT (or whatever the new 1150 would be since they changed the SAT points).

3) The biggest reason = $$$$$$$$.  Not only has IC gotten more expensive but the financial aid has decreased.  In 1994, IC changed its financial aid system.  In the past, you had to show both need and talent.  Now, you can show either need or talent.  Therefore, a lot more kids qualify for aid which seems good.  But, more kids qualifying for aid means each kid gets less aid.  Pair that with the increases in tuition and it makes for a tough choice for a high school athlete.  If you are between IC and a SUNY, where do you go?  All other things being equal, you go to the SUNY to avoid $100K in debt...right?

That was oddly long but I think it is a testament to Welch that he has continued to win despite these changes.  These are certainly not problems that Butts had to deal with.

Jose is right on with the $$. 

As for the academic requirments, Ive heard different stories.  Today, all schools are scraping for students for the general popluation.  I think it is easier to get into all schools today than it was 10-20 years ago in many cases.  That does not mean it is easier for football players or athletes to get into schools though.  So it kind of goes both ways. 

I went to high school with 3 kids that didnt get into Ithaca and I was shocked.  And they were good students (better than me in one case) and good athletes.  They ended up going to Hobart, Ohio Weslyan, and Bentley.  3 schools that were ranked near or even above Ithaca.  Then there is of course the kid whos parents have the money to drop 45K in cash every Sept.  It makes you wonder if those kids get treatment.

Another thing I have noticed with the rosters is the area where the players are from.  I only see 3 players on last years IC roster from power NE prep schools or upstate private schools (McQuaid, Choate and Bridgeton).  In the 1980s and early 1990s, 25% of ICs roster came from a NE prep school or private school.  If you look at the Hobart and Union rosters, a good 25% come from those NE prep schools that have good football programs and are good schools.

I always thought Ithaca has that advantage over schools like Cortland and SJF that are more regional. 

['gro]

Me thinks in Ithaca's case the other NY schools have stepped up their recruiting efforts, facilities, etc.  No fault of their own but like Jose said the number of options has increased.  In NY, sure every school is unique (Ithaca's media programs, Alfreds pottery school... I mean ceramic engineering program) but on the surface you could lump a majority of the private liberal arts schools together. They are all competing for the same kids.

Gro also believes that the D3 talent pool itself has grown.  More and more kids have both the football ability and grades to get into most of these schools.

[Jonny Utah]

Me thinks in Ithaca's case the other NY schools have stepped up their recruiting efforts, facilities, etc.  No fault of their own but like Jose said the number of options has increased.  In NY, sure every school is unique (Ithaca's media programs, Alfreds pottery school... I mean ceramic engineering program) but on the surface you could lump a majority of the private liberal arts schools together. They are all competing for the same kids.

Gro also believes that the D3 talent pool itself has grown.  More and more kids have both the football ability and grades to get into most of these schools.

Yea but the only school that really stepped up its facilities is SJF.  And although Cortland facilities have improved 100%, the choice between there and Ithaca was and should be now more of a $$ issue.  Im going to say that your average kid will chose IC over Cortland if the $$ is the same.

[fisheralum91]

the pool have definatley gotten thinner for d3 schools to pick from.
many are fighting for the same player and it all comes down to dollars and cents and the ability to have PT and win championships(league)

[JQV]

Fisher has probably undergone the biggest facility upgrade but I think there are program upgrades outside of the actual physical plant that a lot of schools have undergone.  When schools start investing in their programs (recruiting budgets, uniforms, travel, etc) they are going to get kids. 

I also agree that IC has a wider geographic pull for football recruits than the other schools but I think they are getting hit on multiple fronts by the smaller regional schools.  We are competing with Fisher for the Rochester kids, with the NJ schools for the LI/NJ kids, with Union RPI for the NE kids, etc.

[fisheralum91]

I think that with the rise of the E8 as a whole recruiting will get even tougher.
Hell- I think that Faggiano will be able to pull some kids away from Fisher with the promise of PT.