FB: Empire 8

[boobyhasgameyo]

so bitter... dont be mad because Wick has your number. 

Where was the Fisher IC game played?

Go lose to curry again....

upstate don't forget WNEC last year! Without Boltus Wick is zip! If they had a team at all to help him (aside form one solid receiver) they would be nationally ranked without a doubt and never...yes never lose to a Curry or WNEC.

I'm with BoSox...sounds bitter...realy bitter...

Who cares about national rankings...we just want to make the playoffs.  But thanks for reminding everyone how terrible we would be without Boltus...or Phelan...or Tomaino...should I even continue?

By the way, I would rather lose to Curry in the first round of the NCAA's then win any game in the ECAC's...

BoSox...IC-Fisher game was played at Fisher this year...

I wouldn't.  If you win your ECAC game you can play the "oh man this team really clicked late, if only we would have gotten a shot in the big tournament, we would have done some serious damage" card.  If you lose in the first round to the conference winner of the worst conference in the country, there is nowhere to go from there...People just say man you really didn't belong there in the first place.  Not taking a shot at Hartwick for losing to them last year, I'm just saying that for any team if faced with those two options. 

No chance...you will never be able to convince me that you would take any ECAC game, win or lose, over a possible loss in the first round of the NCAA's...to anyone.  I would rather tell a kid that our team has been to the NCAA's the last two years then I made the NCAA's two years ago and then won a meaningles ECAC game last year.  Just an opinion...though I suspect many would agree with me.

It is like winning the NIT in college hoops...its nice, but no one really cares.

ahh but you didnt say possible loss, you said a loss to Curry.  If there was a chance of a win of course you'd choose the NCAA.

[Yanks 99]

so bitter... dont be mad because Wick has your number. 

Where was the Fisher IC game played?

Go lose to curry again....

upstate don't forget WNEC last year! Without Boltus Wick is zip! If they had a team at all to help him (aside form one solid receiver) they would be nationally ranked without a doubt and never...yes never lose to a Curry or WNEC.

I'm with BoSox...sounds bitter...realy bitter...

Who cares about national rankings...we just want to make the playoffs.  But thanks for reminding everyone how terrible we would be without Boltus...or Phelan...or Tomaino...should I even continue?

By the way, I would rather lose to Curry in the first round of the NCAA's then win any game in the ECAC's...

BoSox...IC-Fisher game was played at Fisher this year...

I wouldn't.  If you win your ECAC game you can play the "oh man this team really clicked late, if only we would have gotten a shot in the big tournament, we would have done some serious damage" card.  If you lose in the first round to the conference winner of the worst conference in the country, there is nowhere to go from there...People just say man you really didn't belong there in the first place.  Not taking a shot at Hartwick for losing to them last year, I'm just saying that for any team if faced with those two options. 

No chance...you will never be able to convince me that you would take any ECAC game, win or lose, over a possible loss in the first round of the NCAA's...to anyone.  I would rather tell a kid that our team has been to the NCAA's the last two years then I made the NCAA's two years ago and then won a meaningles ECAC game last year.  Just an opinion...though I suspect many would agree with me.

It is like winning the NIT in college hoops...its nice, but no one really cares.

ahh but you didnt say possible loss, you said a loss to Curry.  If there was a chance of a win of course you'd choose the NCAA.

It still doesn't matter.  Curry or MUC, I would still rather get buried in the first round of the NCAA's then win the ECAC's.  Don't get me wrong, I would take an ECAC game in a second if we don't win out...but you play to get a shot at the NCAA crown.  Booby, this sounds like your arguement about a year back that your Club Football National Championship carried the same weight as a D3 Championship.

It's like the Chewbacca theory...it just doesn't make sense.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Never said it carried the same weight, the discussion was about the history of programs and everybody was always talking about the bad years in the 90's for Fisher and overlooking those other feats. 

And again Yanks, I'm not talking about getting buried by MUC in the first round.  I am talking about losing to Currrrrrry in the firssstttt rounnnnnddddd. 

[Frank Rossi]

OK, folks, it's time to play the exciting new gameshow:

WHY THE EMPIRE 8 TIEBREAKER IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY SENSELESS!

Host:  Let's have our first three contestants.  Hello, Team A, how are you this evening?

Team A:  I'm great, Frank, although I'm worried about this three-way tie I'm in right now.

Host:  Well, that's OK.  That's why we're here tonight, Team A.  Let's meet your first opponent, Team B!  Team B, how have you been doing since that league win to Team A?

Team B:  I was flying high, Frank, until my loss to Team C.  Boy, THAT was a drag.

Host:  All is not lost yet, Team B.  But first, we need to meet Team C.  Hey, Team C, congrats on that big late-season victory against Team B!

Team C:  Thanks, Frank.  It almost made up for that early loss to Team A.

Host:  Well, that's great.  OK, Teams, we're here to decide who goes to the NCAA Playoffs using your Empire 8 tiebreaker system.  Are you ready to play?!

Teams A, B & C:  YES!

Host:  OK.  Well, here we go!  First up, since you all have one loss in the conference, we have a three-way tie.  Let's see who your loss in conference is to for our head-to-head results round!

Team A:  Well, Frank, I lost to Team B.

Team B:  Frank, I lost to Team C.

Team C:  Frank, my loss was to Team A.

Host:  Ooooo.  Sorry then, Teams, that makes all of you 5-1 in your league and 1-1 against each other.  So we have to move to round 2, our results vs. lowest ranked teams in the conference that aren't in the tie.

Teams A, B & C:  Frank, we beat all the other teams!

Host:  RIGHT you are!  So we must move on to round 3, results vs. common non-league opponents.  Teams, who did you play?

Team A:  I played Teams D, E & F, Frank.

Team B:  I played Teams G, H & I, Frank.

Team C:  Well, I played Teams J, K & L, Frank.

Host:  Well, look at that, we have no winner still.  So now it's time for SUDDEN DEATH!  This round is the "NCAA SoS" round.  We need to look at your opponents' winning percentages -- this mainly takes your out-of-conference opponents' win-loss records into account with a minor variation if your own win-loss records are not identical.  However, we'll deal with the variation only if it plays a role.  Now that I've explained the rules, Team A, what are the records of your out-of-conference opponents this season, and how'd you do against each of them, out of curiosity?

Team A:  Well, I played teams that were 9-0, 8-1 and 6-3, Frank.  But I lost to all three.

Host:  Ooooo.  Sounds like a tough season, Team A.  Better luck next time.  Team B?

Team B:  Well, I played teams that were 5-4, 5-4 and 6-3, Frank.  But I BEAT all three!

Host:  WOW!  Great job, Team B!  Now, Team C?

Team C:  Frank, I played teams that were 2-7, 5-4 and 3-6.  I beat the first two, but I lost to the third.

Host:  Nice try, Team C.  I think we have a winner now.

Team B:  Well, that's obvious, Frank.  Team A went 5-4 this season, Team C went 7-2 and I went 8-1!

Host:  Right you are, Team B.  Our winner...

Team B:  Thank YOU!

Host:  ...is Team A!

Team B:  WHAT?!

Host:  Those are the rules of the game, Team B.  Team A's opponents' winning percentage is better than yours!

Team B:  Oh my God.

Host:  Well, Teams B & C, good luck in Pool C -- but Team A, you're our big winner!

------------------------------------

Seem right?

Bumping this up over the "I'd Rather Play in the ECACs" stupidity.  I'd like someone to defend the E8 on this one.

[AUPepBand]

I'm with BoSox...sounds bitter...realy bitter...

Who cares about national rankings...we just want to make the playoffs.  But thanks for reminding everyone how terrible we would be without Boltus...or Phelan...or Tomaino...should I even continue?

By the way, I would rather lose to Curry in the first round of the NCAA's then win any game in the ECAC's...

BoSox...IC-Fisher game was played at Fisher this year...

So you would rather be a huge embarrassment then?

All the power to you...

By huge embarrassment you mean embarrassing like being ranked in the top 5 to start the year and now being 3-3?  I concede...all the power to you...

I dont see wick playing anyone but cupcakes, you go play MUC and SU and then tell me how you do against them...

You can rationalize it anyway you want.  And by cupcakes, do you mean Fisher, because I believe we played Fisher.  Once again you sound bitter...and reasons always sound like excuses anyways...

....wow. for once, it is not SJFF82 in the mix...'Wick has got 'us' on this one by simple fact that they beat us 2 in a row.  Upstate is passionate about SJF and a bit 'sore' as all us Fisher faithful are. 

The question/comment I have is what happened to the grand argument that SJF's success can only be attributable to the Bills, etc.  How then does one explain their present 'failures' ? Did the Bills leave and nobody informed 82?  Did they leave and move to Oneanta....or Utica???  Sorry FA91

Pep would throw in his two cents and address "their present failures" (if a 3-3 record with a very tough schedule is considered a failure)...and reiterate Pep's pre-season  ponderings. Pep believes the Bills' presence and accompanying facilities (aside, of course from the visitor side bleachers and the port-a-potties) is a big factor in attracting impressionable young prospects to the Fisher program. However, Pep suggested in pre-season that Fisher's coaching losses after '07 may have more of an impact on their '08 season than their player losses. Some of the Cardinal droppings on these boards over the past few weeks seem to support that theory.

[pg04]

Bumping this up over the "I'd Rather Play in the ECACs" stupidity.  I'd like someone to defend the E8 on this one.

I could take a stab at this one --- Perhaps the conference thinks a better representative of the conference in the playoffs is one that played a tougher out of conference schedule.  I.E. a team that has played opponents that they'd see in the playoffs (See SJF's playoff performance and schedule vs. Hartwick's). 

The first obvious goal of the Conference is to determine a champion based on the number of wins within the conference.  If there are teams tied, then they are all "Co-Champions".  However, the conference still needs to send a team to the NCAAs via the automatic bid.  Why not send the team that played the best competition?

This is just a thought --- I'm not necessarily agreeing with this reasoning but it makes some sense to me.

[superman57]

as much as we want to lie and all... The E8 is a buisness... and big name teams bring big noteriety... what is a big part of pats ATN podcast.... Fisher-Salisbury...  Fisher-Mount got a lot of press and the fact is as of right now fisher has given Mount their best game same far...

So you reward a team who played a redicoulsly hard non-conference schedule.... vs. the team that dropped one game off of their schedule to try and win the conference

[pg04]

Exactly. 

[PBR...]

as much as we want to lie and all... The E8 is a buisness... and big name teams bring big noteriety... what is a big part of pats ATN podcast.... Fisher-Salisbury...  Fisher-Mount got a lot of press and the fact is as of right now fisher has given Mount their best game same far...

So you reward a team who played a redicoulsly hard non-conference schedule.... vs. the team that dropped one game off of their schedule to try and win the conference

until hartwick or salisbury play Mount...   

[AUPepBand]

For some reason, this reminds me of the boast of Pep's late father-in-law, "I flunked out of one of the finest colleges in the country."

[Frank Rossi]

as much as we want to lie and all... The E8 is a buisness... and big name teams bring big noteriety... what is a big part of pats ATN podcast.... Fisher-Salisbury...  Fisher-Mount got a lot of press and the fact is as of right now fisher has given Mount their best game same far...

So you reward a team who played a redicoulsly hard non-conference schedule.... vs. the team that dropped one game off of their schedule to try and win the conference

Supe, I think you assume something that isn't necessarily in the equation:

Team A's teams could be:  9-0 Curry, 8-1 Coast Guard, 6-3 Mount Ida

Team B's teams could be:  5-4 Union, 5-4 Carnegie Mellon, 6-3 Hobart

Remember, Team A lost all 3; Team B won all 3.  Team A got the AQ bid.

Now comment on that scenario.

[Edit:  Stop applying it to the present Ithaca/SJF/Hartwick scenario.  Remember that SJF's out-of-region games do not apply to its SoS.  In fact, it's conceivable that if Ithaca loses to Cortland, SJF's in-region record would be better than Ithaca's and Hartwick's -- and SJF would not get the bid.]

[pg04]

as much as we want to lie and all... The E8 is a buisness... and big name teams bring big noteriety... what is a big part of pats ATN podcast.... Fisher-Salisbury...  Fisher-Mount got a lot of press and the fact is as of right now fisher has given Mount their best game same far...

So you reward a team who played a redicoulsly hard non-conference schedule.... vs. the team that dropped one game off of their schedule to try and win the conference

Supe, I think you assume something that isn't necessarily in the equation:

Team A's teams could be:  9-0 Curry, 8-1 Coast Guard, 6-3 Mount Ida

Team B's teams could be:  5-4 Union, 5-4 Carnegie Mellon, 6-3 Hobart

Remember, Team A lost all 3; Team B won all 3.  Team A got the AQ bid.

Now comment on that scenario.

Isn't this where Opponent's SOS comes into play in the NCAA's calc? 

[Frank Rossi]

as much as we want to lie and all... The E8 is a buisness... and big name teams bring big noteriety... what is a big part of pats ATN podcast.... Fisher-Salisbury...  Fisher-Mount got a lot of press and the fact is as of right now fisher has given Mount their best game same far...

So you reward a team who played a redicoulsly hard non-conference schedule.... vs. the team that dropped one game off of their schedule to try and win the conference

Supe, I think you assume something that isn't necessarily in the equation:

Team A's teams could be:  9-0 Curry, 8-1 Coast Guard, 6-3 Mount Ida

Team B's teams could be:  5-4 Union, 5-4 Carnegie Mellon, 6-3 Hobart

Remember, Team A lost all 3; Team B won all 3.  Team A got the AQ bid.

Now comment on that scenario.

Isn't this where Opponent's SOS comes into play in the NCAA's calc? 

You're presumably talking about Opponents' Opponents' Winning Percentage (OOWP), which is somewhat true -- of course, the numbers have to be close enough in OWP for the Committee to need to compare teams.

See, even Pat on this site first sorts teams by regional win percentage, and THEN by OWP and THEN by OOWP.  The Committee evaluates teams by reviewing both their regional W/L record (and this is likely the primary sorting the Committee uses to even begin discussing a team) -- and their SoS.  The E8 is heading straight for SoS without any evaluation of regional or overall wins and losses.  In other words, the E8 is using only part of an equation and ignoring the most important part of the equation.

[Edit: Stated another way, the NCAA's SoS is no longer an INDEX.  In other words, there are not rankings like there were with the "Quality of Wins" Index they used prior to the present SoS system.  It is only a comparative tool to be used when two teams of similar regional W/L% are being compared (i.e., a 7-1 and 8-1 team, or an 8-2 and 7-1 team).  You CANNOT ASSIGN RANKINGS to teams under the present SoS because unlike the QoW Index, it ignores wins and losses by a team.  I'm shocked at the utterly overly-simplistic and inappropriate use of the present SoS by the E8 -- if they looked at this for five minutes, they should've seen that scenarios like the ones I've presented could play out.]

[Jonny Utah]

The funny thing is that even though the E8 tie-breaker criteria might not make that much sense, it actually helps them in the sense that better teams who end up 2nd (and third last year) still make it too the playoffs.  Teams from the E8 might not make the playoffs if the most deserving team actually won the pool A bid.

That being said, the E8 doesnt have enough teams to have a perfect system and no one has the right to complain that much.  SJF had their chance to beat Hartwick and cant really complain about not making it.  IC had their chance and got beat pretty bad, and Hartwick the same.

In the end I dont think there will be too many people complaining,

[dlippiel]

I think a lot of the animosity towards Wick is not nessesarily bitter but based on the fact that they will most likely get "smoked" by good OOC teams in the NCAA's (if they go) and it makes the East and the E8 look awful. Last year was atrocious losing to Curry and on top of that losing to WNEC earlier in the year. Listen I love to see a great player like Boltus and a solid receiver doing well but in the end the east wants a team that is not going to lose to a NEFC team in the first round. Wick deserves credit on beating SJF again this year. How they did it I do not know. Yet until they show that they are most likely not going to lose to a Curry, Wnec or give up 70 to Utica people are going to be annoyed with them beating good teams and losing to poor teams.