FB: Empire 8

[Frank Rossi]

I think anyone accusing dewcrew of being a homer, or anything like that, hasn't been paying much attention to his column or these boards.

And the truth is nobody REALLY knows who the best team is of IC-SJF-HC. They're all incredibly inconsistent. We're not going to know for a couple weeks yet either, so let's sit back and watch the games.

Let's be honest:  dewcrew is a homer as much as I'm a Union guy and RT is an RPI guy and JU is an Ithaca guy at heart.  However, we all try beyond what is necessary to remove the appearance of that bias when we are doing broader jobs that don't focus on those schools specifically (well, JU hasn't impressed me much on that one yet -- he's still Ithaca-centric to the max ).  But my earlier post was a joke about Utica -- if he were writing about Utica in the final week of the season, there'd be an issue there.  However, what else should he have written about last week?  The endless three-way tie in the E8?  That's a bridge to cross later in the season.  In other words, back off Dewcrew -- he's doing a good job removing his appearance of bias.  'nuff said on this one.

Not trying to impress ya.  Just trying to show you (and Pat) why I think Ithaca should have been ranked over Hartwick and maybe SJF.  And Budcrew, the d3football.com pollsters and bombers78234 kind of gave the same reasoning.  No one is right here......well Im usually right so yea....Im right.

In all seriousness I think Ithaca should be ranked above Hartwick right now.

Using only final scores and standings as evidence to support your statement, please describe why your belief is so far superior to anyone else's in this situation of the 3-way tie.

Frank I'm done playing the Athenian pawn to your Socratic bullying!  Why don't you use some of your dialectic reasoning and explain to me why Ithaca shouldn't be ranked over Hartwick?

42, Lycoming by 1, King's, SJF no-show.  Your turn.

[HHawks]

I just think Wick stands for complete consistency and should never be doubted or slighted in the least. Losing to WNEC, giving up 70 to Utica (07), 69 to IC (08) and a solid victory over WNEC, to go along with an outstanding OOC schedule I cannot see how anyone would question them period. Oh yeah I forgot the solid showing in the NCAAs last season against Curry. Curry by the way is ranked in the top 25 in the AFCA poll (which I find funny). In actuality aside from my sarcastic banter I love seeing Boltus and Phelan doing so well. I just get annoyed when people think they have done anything worth recieving serious East respect. When they become consistent and don't lose to NEFC teams for longer than a year or two things will change. By the way dewcrew does a solid job of being objective and writing creative ATE articles week in and week out. Sorry K-Mack you rock to but I live for ATE even over ATN (maybe I just said that because you are passing on the shoes game). Just kidding, both you guys are solid.

Never said that 'Wick was the best in the east...

Not sure though...but by "anything worth receiving serious East respect" you mean maybe beating Fisher twice...something that no one has done since the beginning of the seaon in 2004 until now...oh yeah...except for Mount Union.

I don't hate DC...and I have already stated I enjoy his columns each week.  We may disagree on things...but I think that is part of the 'Wick-UC rivalry. 

Beat Fisher twice yes and I think that is a good acomplishment but then to lose to Curry and WNEC is simply inexcusable. To be taken serious on a consistent basis and to recieve respect from any pollsters you must not lose to NEFC teams twice in one year and then wonder why in the following year your team (even with two strong victories) is not getting enough respect. Plus I never said you said Wick was the best in the east. If anyone were to say that I would simply say no they are not. Please play someone, anyone besides Becker and WNEC, beat them and then we will see.

Im confused, I thought the polls were based on this season? Last season is last season, Hartwick has played good football this season, i don't see how anyone can argue that.

[Pat Coleman]

Actually man...when you beat a team two years in a row...its proves everything. 

When the Hartwick contingent comes to an agreement on this, let us know.

[dewcrew88]

I think anyone accusing dewcrew of being a homer, or anything like that, hasn't been paying much attention to his column or these boards.

And the truth is nobody REALLY knows who the best team is of IC-SJF-HC. They're all incredibly inconsistent. We're not going to know for a couple weeks yet either, so let's sit back and watch the games.

Let's be honest:  dewcrew is a homer as much as I'm a Union guy and RT is an RPI guy and JU is an Ithaca guy at heart.  However, we all try beyond what is necessary to remove the appearance of that bias when we are doing broader jobs that don't focus on those schools specifically (well, JU hasn't impressed me much on that one yet -- he's still Ithaca-centric to the max ).  But my earlier post was a joke about Utica -- if he were writing about Utica in the final week of the season, there'd be an issue there.  However, what else should he have written about last week?  The endless three-way tie in the E8?  That's a bridge to cross later in the season.  In other words, back off Dewcrew -- he's doing a good job removing his appearance of bias.  'nuff said on this one.

thank you, senor rossi.

[dewcrew88]

I just think Wick stands for complete consistency and should never be doubted or slighted in the least. Losing to WNEC, giving up 70 to Utica (07), 69 to IC (08) and a solid victory over WNEC, to go along with an outstanding OOC schedule I cannot see how anyone would question them period. Oh yeah I forgot the solid showing in the NCAAs last season against Curry. Curry by the way is ranked in the top 25 in the AFCA poll (which I find funny). In actuality aside from my sarcastic banter I love seeing Boltus and Phelan doing so well. I just get annoyed when people think they have done anything worth recieving serious East respect. When they become consistent and don't lose to NEFC teams for longer than a year or two things will change. By the way dewcrew does a solid job of being objective and writing creative ATE articles week in and week out. Sorry K-Mack you rock to but I live for ATE even over ATN (maybe I just said that because you are passing on the shoes game). Just kidding, both you guys are solid.

Never said that 'Wick was the best in the east...

Not sure though...but by "anything worth receiving serious East respect" you mean maybe beating Fisher twice...something that no one has done since the beginning of the seaon in 2004 until now...oh yeah...except for Mount Union.

I don't hate DC...and I have already stated I enjoy his columns each week.  We may disagree on things...but I think that is part of the 'Wick-UC rivalry.  

Beat Fisher twice yes and I think that is a good acomplishment but then to lose to Curry and WNEC is simply inexcusable. To be taken serious on a consistent basis and to recieve respect from any pollsters you must not lose to NEFC teams twice in one year and then wonder why in the following year your team (even with two strong victories) is not getting enough respect. Plus I never said you said Wick was the best in the east. If anyone were to say that I would simply say no they are not. Please play someone, anyone besides Becker and WNEC, beat them and then we will see.

Not looking for respect from the pollsters...asking how DC was ranking things different this week.  Even he thought he had 'Wick ranked 3rd...when they are 5th...which is still great.

Pollsters aren't supposed to vote on how the team did over the last few years...they are voting on this year only.  That may not be a reality...but that is the way it is supposed to be. 

I misspoke on the post... rankings can be really difficult sometimes... especially this year, where there are so many teams worthy of being in the top 10.. I said this week there needs to be a top 17.
Hartwick, Fisher, IC are all good, but AU is first in the conference... five MAC teams all in first place... it's too damn early to really focus on specific rankings, but I try because I know it starts discussion, which I enjoy.

[Bombers798891]

DC...how do you pick/rank your teams each week...I mean, I know it is not an exact science...but I am curious.

I am all for another E8 team being in the top 10...and as a 'Wick fan, I have to hope Alfred beats IC...but not sure why Alfred would jump into the top 10 at #7.  Because they beat your team UC?  Alfred has 5 wins this year against teams with a combined 9-22 record (.290 winning percentage)?  Only FDU-F is .500 at 3-3.  Not really knocking Alfred here...I think they are a very tough team...as was obvious by the great game at the cage a few weeks ago.

Also, why change up the IC, Wick, and SJF rankings?  All 3 buried teams they should have last week. 

Not complaining about the rankings...none of these rankings will have any bearing on the playoff spots...just curious...and this is a really boring night...

It's not really exact at all.... The AU thing.. still in first place in the E8, they haven't been ranked all year until now. They are beating the teams they have to beat, but now the big games: IC and Fisher are still to play... we'll see what happens after that. IC, Wick and Fisher moved a little bit because of the Del Val loss.

EDIT
Re: UC pub
I do a pretty good job being fair when it comes to rankings and columns, I think people here would agree.
They were first in the conference (I know only one game, but Norwich hasn't won a conference game in almost 3 years, so doing it is pretty good). And Blaise is a new coach, so I figured I would talk to him and get his thoughts on the season so far.
Go back through the archive of columns, see how much I give UC vs. any other team.

i dont agree with that at all... IC; SJF; HC all have defeated each other but HC is ranked 3rd out of the three...maybe thats correct...  but not just a coincidence...  Saying AU has beat the teams they are supposed to beat but NOW they have their big games ... SJF and IC... the game against HC wasnt a big game? that they lost by the way....Most people wouldnt notice because they dont care about hartwick but as a wick fan i notice you slighting them constantly... its not a big deal i'm used to it and somewhat understand it but call it what it is if Utica was doing what Hartwick is doing this year/last year i think you would have an article up stating how the pioneers should ranked nationally...

Hartwick gets ranked lower for a few reasons in my own, internal, ranking system.

1) A Hartwick fan talking about SOS is the pot calling the kettle black. Are we supposed to be impressed by your wins over Becker and Western New England? You've got Mt. Ida this week, another great challenge. Schedule someone out of conference that finishes above .500, then whine about schedules
2) Fisher and Alfred aren't exactly the best teams. Neither are ranked in the Top 25. They've got five losses between them, and there's probably 2 more coming.
3) Allowing 69 points to the highest ranked team on your schedule is always a great way to endear yourself to the people making the rankings.
4) Fans who complain about rankings that have no bearing on reality need to just calm down

To answer, in order...

1) I was trying to get some discussion going...it was a slow night.  I have said this a million times, if you are looking for respect on this board, you are an idiot.  You can talk about 'Wick's schedule all you want though, but right now we are the only team to play three teams that are ranked in the top 10 in the East, and are 2-1.

2) If Fisher isn't exactly the "best of teams" then why did they take you guys out behind the woodshed and whip you like you were a speed bump on their schedule? Maybe you should have a little more respect for a team with the toughest schedule in the E8, and one that has pretty much owned you over the last few years.  I wouldn't overlook Alfred either...

3) You scored a lot on us...good job.  Was it worth keeping Juvan in the game that late in the 4th, to the point he was ineffective in the Fisher game?  Whether it is one point, or 28, a win is a win.  Congrats.

4) This is a discussion board...aren't we supposed to generate thoughts, ideas, and questions here?   I don't care for one second if we are the last ranked team in D3...as long as we go to the playoffs.

Are you going to sit on me until I scream uncle if I don't agree with you?  Looks like someone was having a bad day....

1) You bring up the central point many others on this board have brought up: It's a three way tie and impossible to rank teams since they've all beaten each other. Yeah, Fisher took us behind the woodshed. And we took you behind the woodshed. And you beat Fisher. Congratulations. We've solved nothing. You've beaten Alfred, but how do we know Alfred's any better than the Lycoming team Ithaca beat? We know they're not as good as MUC and Salisbury. If Alfred loses to SJF and IC, what's the new story then? You've got your opinion on where Hartwick should be ranked. That's fine. But the problem a lot of people on this board are having right now is that people who DON'T rank Hartwick ahead of SJF are being accused of being homers

2) I've got plenty of respect for Fisher. But it's evident that this team is not the same dominant team it used to be, week in and week out. I'm not the fan who thinks his team should be ahead of Fisher in some ranking system. You are. And while you can use the argument "We beat Fisher" till the cows come home, that still doesn't prove anything. If Hartwick has to be ahead of Fisher because they beat them, then Ithaca has to be ahead of Hartwick for the same reason. But that can't happen because then Ithaca would be ahead of a Fisher team that beat them. Fisher's got every right to be ranked ahead of you. They've played three teams in the top 25 currently and beaten one. You've played one and beaten none. But, you've got every right to be ahead of Fisher as well. They've lost three times, and two of their wins--Buff State and Rochester, are weaker than your win over Alfred. The "Best" team of these three is an endless loop of a debate and there's no right or wrong answer. So why are Wick fans the only ones going around accusing people of bias??

3) There's nothing wrong with a discussion. But when people have a different opinion than you, it's best acknowledge that those opinions are valid. My points were simply that

A) Your OOC schedule is weak--which it is

B) You've got one less win than Ithaca and the same number of wins as Fisher.

C) Since Fisher's not in the Top 25, even with that schedule, perhaps they aren't as good as the previous teams that went to the National semifinals--which is also a distinct possibility. I never said they were awful. Simply that they weren't among the "Best" in the country right now

D) We don't know how good Alfred is, since they've yet to play IC and SJF, who, down seasons or not, are better than teams like Springfield, Norwich and Utica, which are the only three conference teams they've actually beaten. That's also true.

E) I'm not in a bad mood at all. My team is about to put the finishing touches on their 38th consecutive winning season this week. I'm happy as a clam

You cannot guarantee that Alfred is not better then Salisbury...that is too be determined.  What happens if Alfred beats both IC and Fisher?  Unlikely, but certainly not impossible.

I wasn't questioning everyone who ranks Fisher ahead of Alfred...just Dew Crew in this case.  We were ranked ahead of them two weeks ago when we beat Alfred and Fisher lost to Salisbury...we were ranked ahead of them as we crushed Becker and Fisher crushed Norwich...and now we aren't.  If the roles were reveresed AND we had lost to Fisher, the Fisher fans would be all over Dew Crew...and rightfully so.  Just curious why he would change it up?

"And while you can use the argument "We beat Fisher" till the cows come home, that still doesn't prove anything."  Actually man...when you beat a team two years in a row...its proves everything.  My arguement, and this is in the spirit of this board, is that they have three loses (I can even throw out the MUC loss)...and the rest of the E8 bunch at the top doesn't.  It's worth a discussion...

Be careful patting yourself on the back over your out of league strength of schedule.  It may be tougher then ours this year...especially because Cortland is so strong...but lets face it...did IC really think they were scheduling powerhouses when Lycoming (3-7), Kings (1-9), and Frostburg (2-7) all finishing way below .500 last year?  Take away Cortland, and IC's schedule isn't that impressive either.  All of this is pointless though, as you have Cortland on the schedule.

I am not going to lie...I like where 'Wick sits right now.  It is not perfect, but it could be worse.  If IC loses to Alfred and we win out...we are in.  If the top 3 all win out, and as long as Fisher doesn't get the AQ (and it looks like IC would get the AQ)...I like our chances for a Pool C.  Certainly there would be no way for Fisher to get the Pool C over 'Wick in this scenario...and I like the E8's chances of getting two in the NCAA's.

First off, I wasn't saying you couldn't say you;re  better than Fisher via the H2H If it was just the two of you. It's not. The entire point is if you're going to use that argument for one matchup, you have to do it for all of them. And you can't, because by that logic, Hartwick has to ranked ahead of Fisher, but Fisher has to be ahead of Ithaca, but Ithaca has to be ahead of Hartwick, who of course, has to be ahead of Alfred, but then how far down does Alfred go? Any way you rank these teams, some team is going to be behind a team that they beat. It could be any of us. It happened to be you. This is the transitive property gone haywire. When that happens, someone gets the shaft. It just seems like the Wick fans are playing this disrespect card a little too much. Your team has done some amazing things, but really, this program has been on the upside of .500 for a year and a half now. They're not an Eastern power. Alfred, Fisher and IC have been doing this for years (Or decades in the Bombers' case). Is that a fair argument? Not really, but I can't think of a scenario in which one of these four E8 teams doesn't have a gripe about something, so it's really as valid as any other. There's not a absolute answer to the question of "What order do we rank these E8 teams?" because it's all one big mess. Just cross your fingers, hope Alfred knocks off IC, and you're in the driver's seat.

Regarding Ithaca's schedule, you'd be right, but you have your years wrong. The year before IC scheduled Lycoming, they went 9-2. It's not Ithaca's fault Lycoming's program took a nosedive starting with the year they scheduled them. And Cortland has been a force in the NJAC for a few seasons now. But regardless, we're talking about this season, and this season, Lycoming and Cortland (Not to mention Salisbury and MUC) are both better than anything on Wick's this season, not to mention, we're both playing four OOC games to your three. Little things like that do matter to people.

[dlippiel]

I just think Wick stands for complete consistency and should never be doubted or slighted in the least. Losing to WNEC, giving up 70 to Utica (07), 69 to IC (08) and a solid victory over WNEC, to go along with an outstanding OOC schedule I cannot see how anyone would question them period. Oh yeah I forgot the solid showing in the NCAAs last season against Curry. Curry by the way is ranked in the top 25 in the AFCA poll (which I find funny). In actuality aside from my sarcastic banter I love seeing Boltus and Phelan doing so well. I just get annoyed when people think they have done anything worth recieving serious East respect. When they become consistent and don't lose to NEFC teams for longer than a year or two things will change. By the way dewcrew does a solid job of being objective and writing creative ATE articles week in and week out. Sorry K-Mack you rock to but I live for ATE even over ATN (maybe I just said that because you are passing on the shoes game). Just kidding, both you guys are solid.

Never said that 'Wick was the best in the east...

Not sure though...but by "anything worth receiving serious East respect" you mean maybe beating Fisher twice...something that no one has done since the beginning of the seaon in 2004 until now...oh yeah...except for Mount Union.

I don't hate DC...and I have already stated I enjoy his columns each week.  We may disagree on things...but I think that is part of the 'Wick-UC rivalry. 

Beat Fisher twice yes and I think that is a good acomplishment but then to lose to Curry and WNEC is simply inexcusable. To be taken serious on a consistent basis and to recieve respect from any pollsters you must not lose to NEFC teams twice in one year and then wonder why in the following year your team (even with two strong victories) is not getting enough respect. Plus I never said you said Wick was the best in the east. If anyone were to say that I would simply say no they are not. Please play someone, anyone besides Becker and WNEC, beat them and then we will see.

Im confused, I thought the polls were based on this season? Last season is last season, Hartwick has played good football this season, i don't see how anyone can argue that.

I guess I would want all not to bring up last season to if my team lost to not one but again, TWO NEFC teams. Also I think that many people are nervous because Wick won the E8 last year and then embaressed the E8 by getting smoked by Curry in the first round. NO ONE wants to see that happen again. Your team is also very similar to last years team and didn't exactly monkey stomp WNEC this year to make any type of statement that the 2 losses last year were flukes. What scares many of us and still is fresh in our minds is that at least I believe last years loss to Curry was not a fluke but that Wick is inconsistent. Yes this is this year, a year that (I have said this before) Wick has a couple of solid victories in AU and SJF. Yet Wick still gave up 69 to IC. Whether you like it or not a teams accomplishments or lack there of from the previous year and/or years is taken into account. Believe it or not I like Wick and often want them to win games, but if you want respect THIS YEAR OR ANY YEAR don't lose to poor football teams. I don't care who you beat.

[Jonny Utah]

I think anyone accusing dewcrew of being a homer, or anything like that, hasn't been paying much attention to his column or these boards.

And the truth is nobody REALLY knows who the best team is of IC-SJF-HC. They're all incredibly inconsistent. We're not going to know for a couple weeks yet either, so let's sit back and watch the games.

Let's be honest:  dewcrew is a homer as much as I'm a Union guy and RT is an RPI guy and JU is an Ithaca guy at heart.  However, we all try beyond what is necessary to remove the appearance of that bias when we are doing broader jobs that don't focus on those schools specifically (well, JU hasn't impressed me much on that one yet -- he's still Ithaca-centric to the max ).  But my earlier post was a joke about Utica -- if he were writing about Utica in the final week of the season, there'd be an issue there.  However, what else should he have written about last week?  The endless three-way tie in the E8?  That's a bridge to cross later in the season.  In other words, back off Dewcrew -- he's doing a good job removing his appearance of bias.  'nuff said on this one.

Not trying to impress ya.  Just trying to show you (and Pat) why I think Ithaca should have been ranked over Hartwick and maybe SJF.  And Budcrew, the d3football.com pollsters and bombers78234 kind of gave the same reasoning.  No one is right here......well Im usually right so yea....Im right.

In all seriousness I think Ithaca should be ranked above Hartwick right now.

Using only final scores and standings as evidence to support your statement, please describe why your belief is so far superior to anyone else's in this situation of the 3-way tie.

Frank I'm done playing the Athenian pawn to your Socratic bullying!  Why don't you use some of your dialectic reasoning and explain to me why Ithaca shouldn't be ranked over Hartwick?

42, Lycoming by 1, King's, SJF no-show.  Your turn.

I was kidding because still, no hypothesis (Ithaca is better than Hartwick, SJF is better than Ithaca, Hartwick is better than SJF), can be logically deduced based on any of our specific observations.  

Are you trying to make be logically induce that Ithaca should be ranked higher than these teams?  Because you and I know that cannont be done.

Can we just agree that all polls use inductive reasoning and therfore the problem of induction will always exist making any arguement in a case like (Ithaca/Hartwick/SJF) problamatic?

[Yanks 99]

DC...how do you pick/rank your teams each week...I mean, I know it is not an exact science...but I am curious.

I am all for another E8 team being in the top 10...and as a 'Wick fan, I have to hope Alfred beats IC...but not sure why Alfred would jump into the top 10 at #7.  Because they beat your team UC?  Alfred has 5 wins this year against teams with a combined 9-22 record (.290 winning percentage)?  Only FDU-F is .500 at 3-3.  Not really knocking Alfred here...I think they are a very tough team...as was obvious by the great game at the cage a few weeks ago.

Also, why change up the IC, Wick, and SJF rankings?  All 3 buried teams they should have last week. 

Not complaining about the rankings...none of these rankings will have any bearing on the playoff spots...just curious...and this is a really boring night...

It's not really exact at all.... The AU thing.. still in first place in the E8, they haven't been ranked all year until now. They are beating the teams they have to beat, but now the big games: IC and Fisher are still to play... we'll see what happens after that. IC, Wick and Fisher moved a little bit because of the Del Val loss.

EDIT
Re: UC pub
I do a pretty good job being fair when it comes to rankings and columns, I think people here would agree.
They were first in the conference (I know only one game, but Norwich hasn't won a conference game in almost 3 years, so doing it is pretty good). And Blaise is a new coach, so I figured I would talk to him and get his thoughts on the season so far.
Go back through the archive of columns, see how much I give UC vs. any other team.

i dont agree with that at all... IC; SJF; HC all have defeated each other but HC is ranked 3rd out of the three...maybe thats correct...  but not just a coincidence...  Saying AU has beat the teams they are supposed to beat but NOW they have their big games ... SJF and IC... the game against HC wasnt a big game? that they lost by the way....Most people wouldnt notice because they dont care about hartwick but as a wick fan i notice you slighting them constantly... its not a big deal i'm used to it and somewhat understand it but call it what it is if Utica was doing what Hartwick is doing this year/last year i think you would have an article up stating how the pioneers should ranked nationally...

Hartwick gets ranked lower for a few reasons in my own, internal, ranking system.

1) A Hartwick fan talking about SOS is the pot calling the kettle black. Are we supposed to be impressed by your wins over Becker and Western New England? You've got Mt. Ida this week, another great challenge. Schedule someone out of conference that finishes above .500, then whine about schedules
2) Fisher and Alfred aren't exactly the best teams. Neither are ranked in the Top 25. They've got five losses between them, and there's probably 2 more coming.
3) Allowing 69 points to the highest ranked team on your schedule is always a great way to endear yourself to the people making the rankings.
4) Fans who complain about rankings that have no bearing on reality need to just calm down

To answer, in order...

1) I was trying to get some discussion going...it was a slow night.  I have said this a million times, if you are looking for respect on this board, you are an idiot.  You can talk about 'Wick's schedule all you want though, but right now we are the only team to play three teams that are ranked in the top 10 in the East, and are 2-1.

2) If Fisher isn't exactly the "best of teams" then why did they take you guys out behind the woodshed and whip you like you were a speed bump on their schedule? Maybe you should have a little more respect for a team with the toughest schedule in the E8, and one that has pretty much owned you over the last few years.  I wouldn't overlook Alfred either...

3) You scored a lot on us...good job.  Was it worth keeping Juvan in the game that late in the 4th, to the point he was ineffective in the Fisher game?  Whether it is one point, or 28, a win is a win.  Congrats.

4) This is a discussion board...aren't we supposed to generate thoughts, ideas, and questions here?   I don't care for one second if we are the last ranked team in D3...as long as we go to the playoffs.

Are you going to sit on me until I scream uncle if I don't agree with you?  Looks like someone was having a bad day....

1) You bring up the central point many others on this board have brought up: It's a three way tie and impossible to rank teams since they've all beaten each other. Yeah, Fisher took us behind the woodshed. And we took you behind the woodshed. And you beat Fisher. Congratulations. We've solved nothing. You've beaten Alfred, but how do we know Alfred's any better than the Lycoming team Ithaca beat? We know they're not as good as MUC and Salisbury. If Alfred loses to SJF and IC, what's the new story then? You've got your opinion on where Hartwick should be ranked. That's fine. But the problem a lot of people on this board are having right now is that people who DON'T rank Hartwick ahead of SJF are being accused of being homers

2) I've got plenty of respect for Fisher. But it's evident that this team is not the same dominant team it used to be, week in and week out. I'm not the fan who thinks his team should be ahead of Fisher in some ranking system. You are. And while you can use the argument "We beat Fisher" till the cows come home, that still doesn't prove anything. If Hartwick has to be ahead of Fisher because they beat them, then Ithaca has to be ahead of Hartwick for the same reason. But that can't happen because then Ithaca would be ahead of a Fisher team that beat them. Fisher's got every right to be ranked ahead of you. They've played three teams in the top 25 currently and beaten one. You've played one and beaten none. But, you've got every right to be ahead of Fisher as well. They've lost three times, and two of their wins--Buff State and Rochester, are weaker than your win over Alfred. The "Best" team of these three is an endless loop of a debate and there's no right or wrong answer. So why are Wick fans the only ones going around accusing people of bias??

3) There's nothing wrong with a discussion. But when people have a different opinion than you, it's best acknowledge that those opinions are valid. My points were simply that

A) Your OOC schedule is weak--which it is

B) You've got one less win than Ithaca and the same number of wins as Fisher.

C) Since Fisher's not in the Top 25, even with that schedule, perhaps they aren't as good as the previous teams that went to the National semifinals--which is also a distinct possibility. I never said they were awful. Simply that they weren't among the "Best" in the country right now

D) We don't know how good Alfred is, since they've yet to play IC and SJF, who, down seasons or not, are better than teams like Springfield, Norwich and Utica, which are the only three conference teams they've actually beaten. That's also true.

E) I'm not in a bad mood at all. My team is about to put the finishing touches on their 38th consecutive winning season this week. I'm happy as a clam

You cannot guarantee that Alfred is not better then Salisbury...that is too be determined.  What happens if Alfred beats both IC and Fisher?  Unlikely, but certainly not impossible.

I wasn't questioning everyone who ranks Fisher ahead of Alfred...just Dew Crew in this case.  We were ranked ahead of them two weeks ago when we beat Alfred and Fisher lost to Salisbury...we were ranked ahead of them as we crushed Becker and Fisher crushed Norwich...and now we aren't.  If the roles were reveresed AND we had lost to Fisher, the Fisher fans would be all over Dew Crew...and rightfully so.  Just curious why he would change it up?

"And while you can use the argument "We beat Fisher" till the cows come home, that still doesn't prove anything."  Actually man...when you beat a team two years in a row...its proves everything.  My arguement, and this is in the spirit of this board, is that they have three loses (I can even throw out the MUC loss)...and the rest of the E8 bunch at the top doesn't.  It's worth a discussion...

Be careful patting yourself on the back over your out of league strength of schedule.  It may be tougher then ours this year...especially because Cortland is so strong...but lets face it...did IC really think they were scheduling powerhouses when Lycoming (3-7), Kings (1-9), and Frostburg (2-7) all finishing way below .500 last year?  Take away Cortland, and IC's schedule isn't that impressive either.  All of this is pointless though, as you have Cortland on the schedule.

I am not going to lie...I like where 'Wick sits right now.  It is not perfect, but it could be worse.  If IC loses to Alfred and we win out...we are in.  If the top 3 all win out, and as long as Fisher doesn't get the AQ (and it looks like IC would get the AQ)...I like our chances for a Pool C.  Certainly there would be no way for Fisher to get the Pool C over 'Wick in this scenario...and I like the E8's chances of getting two in the NCAA's.

First off, I wasn't saying you couldn't say you;re  better than Fisher via the H2H If it was just the two of you. It's not. The entire point is if you're going to use that argument for one matchup, you have to do it for all of them. And you can't, because by that logic, Hartwick has to ranked ahead of Fisher, but Fisher has to be ahead of Ithaca, but Ithaca has to be ahead of Hartwick, who of course, has to be ahead of Alfred, but then how far down does Alfred go? Any way you rank these teams, some team is going to be behind a team that they beat. It could be any of us. It happened to be you. This is the transitive property gone haywire. When that happens, someone gets the shaft. It just seems like the Wick fans are playing this disrespect card a little too much. Your team has done some amazing things, but really, this program has been on the upside of .500 for a year and a half now. They're not an Eastern power. Alfred, Fisher and IC have been doing this for years (Or decades in the Bombers' case). Is that a fair argument? Not really, but I can't think of a scenario in which one of these four E8 teams doesn't have a gripe about something, so it's really as valid as any other. There's not a absolute answer to the question of "What order do we rank these E8 teams?" because it's all one big mess. Just cross your fingers, hope Alfred knocks off IC, and you're in the driver's seat.

Regarding Ithaca's schedule, you'd be right, but you have your years wrong. The year before IC scheduled Lycoming, they went 9-2. It's not Ithaca's fault Lycoming's program took a nosedive starting with the year they scheduled them. And Cortland has been a force in the NJAC for a few seasons now. But regardless, we're talking about this season, and this season, Lycoming and Cortland (Not to mention Salisbury and MUC) are both better than anything on Wick's this season, not to mention, we're both playing four OOC games to your three. Little things like that do matter to people.

I can agree to disagree.  Look...polls are polls.  They are fun to discuss, and argue about.  It's about discussion, especially this week as this week has been boring.  You won't see me argue for a second about being ranked behind IC...not one second.  Fisher, at least for this week, it begs the question as they have 3 losses (and as I have said I will even throw out the MUC loss, as 99.99% of teams lose to them...sadly, that is actually pretty close to their winning %).  

SOS is tough...and I know they schedule these games years out.  The point is, you cannot really fully compare OOC SOS until the middle/end of the year.  Leagues work themselves out...but what if Cortland was down this year (around .500 like a few years ago) and Lycoming, Kings, and Frostburg State all had records similar to last year?  Would we be saying the same thing?  No way...but that is not the case this year.  Clearly, IC's schedule is stronger then ours this year.  Fishers is stronger then all of ours.  I am not fully sold on Lycoming yet...but I could be wrong.  

I am not pulling the 'Wick gets no respect card...certainly not on here.  I asked DC about the switch, because generally when all three teams win big against inferior opponents, no one jumps each other.  I am not holding my breathe, stomping my feet about the rankings...I honestly couldn't care less.  He could have us #1 the rest of the year and that does not guarantee us a playoff spot even if we win out.  

The good news is this discussion got us to Friday.  BoSox...are you going to the IC-UC game this weekend?  I am thinking about stopping up.

[Jonny Utah]

Everyone ask themselves these questions:

If each of the following teams played each other 10 times, how many games would each team win?

1) Ithaca/SJF

2) SJF/Hartwick

3) Ithaca/Hartwick

----------------------------

My answers:

1) SJF 7-3, Ithaca 3-7

2) SJF 7-3, Hartwick 3-7

3) Ithaca 8-2, Hartwick 2-8

[fisheralum91]

ok that was entirely too much babble about hartwick.  the only solace that i have is that this discussion will be moot next year because the wick will be back to normal-bad

[theoriginalupstate]

You guys do know how to edit a quoted post right?  

Do we really need to see the same long posts 15 times on one page?

But other than that there are some really interesting arguments on both sides.  I can see where both IC and HC are coming from regarding rankings but I'll say this to the Wick faithful, regardless if you like it or not history often does account for a teams ranking.  That NCAA meltdown you guys had last year is going to haunt you guys forever untill you do something dramatic either in the regular season or post season.  Everytime a pollster casts a ballot you can bet that last years NCAA game is still stuck in the back of their head.  

Do something this year in the playoffs, if you get there, or schedule some good out of conference opponents for next year and beat them and then you'll see the attitude regarding Wick change.  No more Mt. Ida's or any other crap team from the NE area, get a MAC, NJAC or LL team on your schedule and then we'll talk!

[theoriginalupstate]

ok that was entirely too much babble about hartwick.  the only solace that i have is that this discussion will be moot next year because the wick will be back to normal-bad

Boltus is a sick player, he's way better than Pincelli was in the early part of the decade.  He's such a freak of an athlete, I heard he is the strongest guy on their team as well.  I have alot of respect for him as a player and if I didnt hate Wick i'd enjoy watching him play. 

Its going to be a while untill they can replace him, that whole O is revolved around the QB making plays.  If they dont get good QB play they wont win.

[AUPepBand]

Somewhere along the way in this interesting discussion, someone said: You cannot guarantee that Alfred is not better then Salisbury...that is too be determined.

Pep has figured it out...Alfred beat FDU-Florham 21-14 (that Pep recalls a fellow E8 poster called Fordham and claimed they were a very weak OOC game), then Delaware Valley proves its mettle and eats both Wesley (& Kathy's World-Famous Killer 4-Star Venison Chili) and Salisbury Steak, then once the Aggies moved up to #1 in the East poll, they got a bit prideful and fell into temptation to the Devils of--yes, FDU-Florham!

Alfred beat FDU, FDU beat Del Val, Del Val beat Salisbury....

So that makes Saxons Alfredo better than Salisbury Steak. What's for dinner?

[BoSox0322]

DC...how do you pick/rank your teams each week...I mean, I know it is not an exact science...but I am curious.

I am all for another E8 team being in the top 10...and as a 'Wick fan, I have to hope Alfred beats IC...but not sure why Alfred would jump into the top 10 at #7.  Because they beat your team UC?  Alfred has 5 wins this year against teams with a combined 9-22 record (.290 winning percentage)?  Only FDU-F is .500 at 3-3.  Not really knocking Alfred here...I think they are a very tough team...as was obvious by the great game at the cage a few weeks ago.

Also, why change up the IC, Wick, and SJF rankings?  All 3 buried teams they should have last week. 

Not complaining about the rankings...none of these rankings will have any bearing on the playoff spots...just curious...and this is a really boring night...

It's not really exact at all.... The AU thing.. still in first place in the E8, they haven't been ranked all year until now. They are beating the teams they have to beat, but now the big games: IC and Fisher are still to play... we'll see what happens after that. IC, Wick and Fisher moved a little bit because of the Del Val loss.

EDIT
Re: UC pub
I do a pretty good job being fair when it comes to rankings and columns, I think people here would agree.
They were first in the conference (I know only one game, but Norwich hasn't won a conference game in almost 3 years, so doing it is pretty good). And Blaise is a new coach, so I figured I would talk to him and get his thoughts on the season so far.
Go back through the archive of columns, see how much I give UC vs. any other team.

i dont agree with that at all... IC; SJF; HC all have defeated each other but HC is ranked 3rd out of the three...maybe thats correct...  but not just a coincidence...  Saying AU has beat the teams they are supposed to beat but NOW they have their big games ... SJF and IC... the game against HC wasnt a big game? that they lost by the way....Most people wouldnt notice because they dont care about hartwick but as a wick fan i notice you slighting them constantly... its not a big deal i'm used to it and somewhat understand it but call it what it is if Utica was doing what Hartwick is doing this year/last year i think you would have an article up stating how the pioneers should ranked nationally...

Hartwick gets ranked lower for a few reasons in my own, internal, ranking system.

1) A Hartwick fan talking about SOS is the pot calling the kettle black. Are we supposed to be impressed by your wins over Becker and Western New England? You've got Mt. Ida this week, another great challenge. Schedule someone out of conference that finishes above .500, then whine about schedules
2) Fisher and Alfred aren't exactly the best teams. Neither are ranked in the Top 25. They've got five losses between them, and there's probably 2 more coming.
3) Allowing 69 points to the highest ranked team on your schedule is always a great way to endear yourself to the people making the rankings.
4) Fans who complain about rankings that have no bearing on reality need to just calm down

you missed my point... i stated maybe his rankings are right... I also never said anything about SOS... you all just went into your automatic answer mode to any push back you get against your teams... the point of the post was to disagree with Dewcrews opinion that his column/rankings/coverage is completley unbiased... i dont hate dewcrew i just differ from his opinion...