FB: Empire 8

[JQV]

We all saw how that turned out in week 1 though. 

Just to further the debate, the spread takes time to hit its stride.

Everything I know about the spread (which is admittedly next to nothing) comes from watching Urban's Gator teams.  His first year, everyone was pretty disappointed.  Prior to the season no one thought the spread would work against SEC defenses because of their speed and the early struggles seemed to prove our point that Bob Stoops was the right man for the job.

We all know how it went in year 2 though.

[SJFF82]

Seriously why change an offense that got you to the NCAA Semi's to this mess they call the spread?

Just to play devil's advocate Upstate, maybe they thought the national semis was as far as the old offense would take them.  Sometimes, you gotta give a coaching staff credit for trying something new.  I am not sure if this is one of those times but perhaps they decided they couldn't beat the Mount Unions of the world by running right at them so they needed to try something new.

Jose:  The offense that we ran at MUC in 2006 was exactly why we were in the game.  Robby had a stellar power running game and even muscled his way into the endzone on a crucial 4th and 1.  I noticed right away at MUC this year that the 'spread' offense seemed to be more gimmicky as a design to confuse MUC from what they had previously seen.  Their Defense is way to fast for that...not that you can beat them, but the only way is to 'man-up' and run at them.  I think SJF had the only 100 yard rushing game against MUC in 2006. 

With all that said...Robby is not in the backfield anymore, so I agree, perhaps the coaches are game-planning with their personnel as opposed to trying to plug the personnel into the system that Upstate is advocating for.  For whatever it is worth...I would choose the latter, but I certainly dont know enough to second guess coaching stategies from this keyboard.

I do know that but for the countless turnovers, penalties and other unforced errors this year, this team could be 7-1 right now and this discussion would not be necesarry.  The play-calling, right or wrong, is not the problem, as they say, it has been the execution.

[JQV]

With all that said...Robby is not in the backfield anymore, so I agree, perhaps the coaches are game-planning with their personnel as opposed to trying to plug the personnel into the system that Upstate is advocating for.  For whatever it is worth...I would choose the latter, but I certainly dont know enough to second guess coaching stategies from this keyboard.

This was an interesting comment.  Fisher didn't turn the corner until after I was out of college but in the games where they first challenged IC, a lot of people reported back to me that the Fisher coaches rarely made any adjustments.  (I think Upstate and I had it out on this point at some time).  Basically, the argument was that Fisher would have some early success, their opponent would adjust, and then Fisher's early success would be stifled.  I remember recalling that criticism when Fisher had that huge second half against IC two years ago.  Perhaps the Fisher coaching staff has gone too far the other direction now.

[pg04]

Let me piss some people from other regions off...Who the hell is Trine and why are they the 25th team in the Country?   I understand that many voters are probably still regionalized when it comes to breaking down their votes and may look at a 7-0 team as something to be reckoned with.....BUT they have 3 wins against teams that are a combined 3-20 by a total score of 88-75 (two wins by 1pt each against 0-7 and 1-7 teams).  Are there not other teams in the country maybe not undefeated but with much stronger resumes?  And no I dont mean SJF....before all the -k comes flyin.

They caused the only loss to the #24 team in the country, Franklin. 

See here...

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2008-10-02/Trine%27s+from-the-ground-up+strategy+pays+off

[SJFF82]

Let me piss some people from other regions off...Who the hell is Trine and why are they the 25th team in the Country?   I understand that many voters are probably still regionalized when it comes to breaking down their votes and may look at a 7-0 team as something to be reckoned with.....BUT they have 3 wins against teams that are a combined 3-20 by a total score of 88-75 (two wins by 1pt each against 0-7 and 1-7 teams).  Are there not other teams in the country maybe not undefeated but with much stronger resumes?  And no I dont mean SJF....before all the -k comes flyin.

They caused the only loss to the #24 team in the country, Franklin. 

See here...

http://www.d3football.com/columns/around-the-nation/2008-10-02/Trine%27s+from-the-ground-up+strategy+pays+off

good article...thanks PG04

[Jonny Utah]

Seriously why change an offense that got you to the NCAA Semi's to this mess they call the spread?

Just to play devil's advocate Upstate, maybe they thought the national semis was as far as the old offense would take them.  Sometimes, you gotta give a coaching staff credit for trying something new.  I am not sure if this is one of those times but perhaps they decided they couldn't beat the Mount Unions of the world by running right at them so they needed to try something new.

Good point Jose.  I probably have an above average grasp on what the spread is and what it is meant to do in general.  That being said, I think when a coaching staff decides to run this offense, they have to account for the learning process that is going to go along with it.  Granted, these are 'professional' college coaches (professional I mean coaching football is their job), but still, Im going to say that most of these SJF coaches have not run this offense before.  Sure, they know how to coach traps, ices, counters, speed sweeps, screens, patterns etc, but the spread is something new that even good coaches are only going to get better at the more they do it.

[theoriginalupstate]

Here's another question then:

-Why would you install a brand new offense with a steep learning curve when you have the hardest schedule you've ever faced? 

[JQV]

Here's another question then:

-Why would you install a brand new offense with a steep learning curve when you have the hardest schedule you've ever faced? 

A solid point.  A lot of you SJF guys had deemed this a pseudo-rebuilding year during the pre-season.  Maybe the coaches figured they'd get all the kinks out now so they were geared up for Fall 2009.

[Pat Coleman]

Let me piss some people from other regions off...Who the hell is Trine and why are they the 25th team in the Country?   I understand that many voters are probably still regionalized when it comes to breaking down their votes and may look at a 7-0 team as something to be reckoned with.....BUT they have 3 wins against teams that are a combined 3-20 by a total score of 88-75 (two wins by 1pt each against 0-7 and 1-7 teams).  Are there not other teams in the country maybe not undefeated but with much stronger resumes?  And no I dont mean SJF....before all the -k comes flyin.

They look at all seven games, not just the three you pointed out. The Franklin win is the key. The other games are precisely the reason why it has taken Trine so long to get to the Top 25.

[SJFF82]

Seriously why change an offense that got you to the NCAA Semi's to this mess they call the spread?

Just to play devil's advocate Upstate, maybe they thought the national semis was as far as the old offense would take them.  Sometimes, you gotta give a coaching staff credit for trying something new.  I am not sure if this is one of those times but perhaps they decided they couldn't beat the Mount Unions of the world by running right at them so they needed to try something new.

Good point Jose.  I probably have an above average grasp on what the spread is and what it is meant to do in general.  That being said, I think when a coaching staff decides to run this offense, they have to account for the learning process that is going to go along with it.  Granted, these are 'professional' college coaches (professional I mean coaching football is their job), but still, Im going to say that most of these SJF coaches have not run this offense before.  Sure, they know how to coach traps, ices, counters, speed sweeps, screens, patterns etc, but the spread is something new that even good coaches are only going to get better at the more they do it.

Head Coach Paul Vosburgh has been around the block and has run many offenses...I dont think the coaches' learning curvre is the problem.  Look at the offense's statistics this year....not too bad.  It is the penalties and turnovers.

[AUPepBand]

Pep was in Ithaca Saterday for the Bombers' 42-7 win over Utica. The Bombers were already up 21-0 when Pep arrived. Dismal rainy day but warm. Sparse crowd. Three FDCers...understandably difficult to recruit new members to come out and stand in the rain. Not a lot of interest in seeing Ithaca versus Utica. The IC Pep Band was in usual good form.

Bombers looked "businesslike." Taking care of business. Solid program. Bergerstock had five TD runs for the second time this season. The kid from Webster Thomas is a small quick stocky runner who gets the job done.

While at the game, Pep received cell phone updates of the Fisher-Springfield game from Kaz00, who was hosting a Bye Week BBQ for the band at his place back in Mayberry. Springfield's young team continues to improve each week with that unorthodox offensive scheme. Pep is wondering whether the Pride, after giving Fisher a scare, might do the same for Ithaca (probably not on Butterfield's grass) and Hartwick (on Springfield turf).

Meanwhile, Pep is hoping to muster a sizeable band to make the trip to Ra-cha-cha for the 12 noon kickoff Saterday at Fauver Stadium.

On Saxon Warriors!

[Jonny Utah]

Seriously why change an offense that got you to the NCAA Semi's to this mess they call the spread?

Just to play devil's advocate Upstate, maybe they thought the national semis was as far as the old offense would take them.  Sometimes, you gotta give a coaching staff credit for trying something new.  I am not sure if this is one of those times but perhaps they decided they couldn't beat the Mount Unions of the world by running right at them so they needed to try something new.

Good point Jose.  I probably have an above average grasp on what the spread is and what it is meant to do in general.  That being said, I think when a coaching staff decides to run this offense, they have to account for the learning process that is going to go along with it.  Granted, these are 'professional' college coaches (professional I mean coaching football is their job), but still, Im going to say that most of these SJF coaches have not run this offense before.  Sure, they know how to coach traps, ices, counters, speed sweeps, screens, patterns etc, but the spread is something new that even good coaches are only going to get better at the more they do it.

Head Coach Paul Vosburgh has been around the block and has run many offenses...I dont think the coaches' learning curvre is the problem.  Look at the offense's statistics this year....not too bad.  It is the penalties and turnovers.

So what is the cause of penalties and turnovers?  dicipline?  new schemes making some blocks more difficult?  New cadence and audible system? New shifts/motions causing illegal shifts?  Bad decisions becasue the players/coaches are figuring out the reads?

Im not saying they installed the offense with a leaning curve in mind, but when you put in a new system eveyone gets better at it as time goes on, the coaches, players etc..

[Knightstalker]

Going along with Jose thoughts, possibly the coaching staff felt this was the best year to install an new offense.  I believe that SJF has fairly young players at the skill positions, if this is true they will grow with the offense and in a year of two it could be a pretty potent offense.  They may be recruiting the running backs needed for the spread this year.  The coaches could also be keeping some of the pro set plays, both because they are familiar to your more experienced players and seeing as most games are played in upstate NY you never know when you are going to be playing in one of those October/November noreasters complete with wind, rain and possibly some snow.  There may be days when you just need to smash it out due to conditions and you need to be able to run plays for those conditions.

Just the thoughts of a neutral bystander.

[Bombers798891]

Bombers798891, my biggest beef with the offense is that it changed.  Seriously why change an offense that got you to the NCAA Semi's to this mess they call the spread?  There is no good reason why it was changed.  Its not like they have inferrior lineman and need to try to gain an advantage, in my opinion (not that anyone cares) this spread is actually hurts these lineman.  That was their big advantage over people, they got their big offensive lineman on the move and making big holes with their inside/outside zone plays and then the RB's were able to find the hole or cutback.  Those plays set up an extremely effective offense with bootlegs and play action passes.  

If it wasnt broke why try to fix it?

It sure as heck didnt help them vs MUC, it actually played right into the strength of MUC's 4-2-5 defense.  

But what if SJF doesn't have the personnel to run the same offense? Robinson and Reile allowed you do to things maybe they can't do here. IC is doing the same stuff. In the last few years, they've had to get away from the pass-happy offense because the stable of WR's isn't as great.

[Bombers798891]

Here's another question then:

-Why would you install a brand new offense with a steep learning curve when you have the hardest schedule you've ever faced? 

You've got to start it sometime. Players graduate when they gradute. If you feel that, for long-term success need to move an offense forward, you do it. You'll take a "rebuilding" year at 7-3 if it better positions you for the future.

I guess it's about preaching patience. We're 8 games into the "New Fisher Offense" and what is different from last season? You've got a couple extra losses, but it's not like you beat MUC or Hartwick the year before. You still killed IC.

U of M people are already complaining about Rodriguz's offense, but they'd be wise to exert patience, let some new players filter in. You can't make yearly trips to the NCAA SF/QF's--unless you're MUC I guess. Patience my SJF friends.