FB: Liberty League

[mattvsmith]

Wake up call? I think Rowan can win this round and the next, too.  We've beat Mount in Alliance before and we can do it again.  All the way this yeay, baby.  It's a shame you don't think the same for your team.

CK

Well this makes about no sense.
The Rev and RadioMike are Hobart fans.  If we were to think that Hobart would win this round and go on to the next round and win we'd either be insane or jackasses.

One thing that The Rev prides himself on is a deep sense of realism.  Here is reality as The Rev sees it:

Hobart is a respectable team that has made great strides since Coach Maxwell took over in 1991.  We are now perenniel regional contenders.  We are good for a round or two in the play-offs at this point.

For Hobart to become a national rather than regional contender the president of the colleges (plural because of Williams Smith College for Wymyn) would have to make the demand, and the professors would have to get on board.  There is a very strong and deeply entrenched antipathy at the school toward men's sports and anything that smacks of traditional men's roles in society.  There is an unspoken rule that sports at Hobart cannot be seen as being better or more important than academics.  Thus the administration at Hobart, such as Dean Capraro fear nothing more than Football becoming big and Hobart gaining a reputation as a jock school like Ithaca or Cortland. 

Conversely, the administration at William Smith, while not exactly wanting to be considered a jock school, do want a reputation for excellence in sport because William Smith College's main theme is subversion of traditional roles in society.  Sports, once the bastion of men, is now dominated by women.  Thus, sport at William Smith is not about competition, but overthrowing traditional gender roles.  Sport is political.

The Rev suspects that few at Rowan have ever considered sport in the same way that it is discussed at HWS.

You should be thankful for this. 

RadioMike or TGP do you have anything to add, amend or contradict re: HWS's ambivalence toward Hobart athletics?

[lewdogg11]

What is all this garbage talk on here?  LD11 landed himself tonight in Charlottesville, VA.  1 word...WOW.  UVA campus is gorgeous and there are some fine womens around these here parts.  Unfortunately, I've had to work most of the night away so not a lot of fun to be had...

On another note...

LD11 and 'Gro, as well as a decent squad of hooligans will be attending the Patriots/Dolphins game in Miami on 12/10.  LD11 just booked Friday night in Fort Lauderdale, and we have Saturday and Sunday at Miami Beach...

LLPP deserves some good stories out of us for once...

I'll take the Canadian Odds of 1:3 that I'll pee myself, throw up on the fat chick 'Gro's making out with, and get drilled with 7 hot dogs from the sorry Miami fans that i heckle......

[pg04]

What is all this garbage talk on here?  LD11 landed himself tonight in Charlottesville, VA.  1 word...WOW.  UVA campus is gorgeous and there are some fine womens around these here parts.  Unfortunately, I've had to work most of the night away so not a lot of fun to be had...

On another note...

LD11 and 'Gro, as well as a decent squad of hooligans will be attending the Patriots/Dolphins game in Miami on 12/10.  LD11 just booked Friday night in Fort Lauderdale, and we have Saturday and Sunday at Miami Beach...

LLPP deserves some good stories out of us for once...

I'll take the Canadian Odds of 1:3 that I'll pee myself, throw up on the fat chick 'Gro's making out with, and get drilled with 7 hot dogs from the sorry Miami fans that i heckle......

That's PG's neck of the woods LD11.  The weather's great down here, but the old people are in full force!  Safe travels. 

[Jonny Utah]

What is all this garbage talk on here?  LD11 landed himself tonight in Charlottesville, VA.  1 word...WOW.  UVA campus is gorgeous and there are some fine womens around these here parts.  Unfortunately, I've had to work most of the night away so not a lot of fun to be had...

On another note...

LD11 and 'Gro, as well as a decent squad of hooligans will be attending the Patriots/Dolphins game in Miami on 12/10.  LD11 just booked Friday night in Fort Lauderdale, and we have Saturday and Sunday at Miami Beach...

LLPP deserves some good stories out of us for once...

I'll take the Canadian Odds of 1:3 that I'll pee myself, throw up on the fat chick 'Gro's making out with, and get drilled with 7 hot dogs from the sorry Miami fans that i heckle......

JU and his gang will also be storming the bars of Ft. Lauderdale that same weekend.  This could be ugly.....

[Jonny Utah]

Wake up call? I think Rowan can win this round and the next, too.  We've beat Mount in Alliance before and we can do it again.  All the way this yeay, baby.  It's a shame you don't think the same for your team.

CK

Well this makes about no sense.
The Rev and RadioMike are Hobart fans.  If we were to think that Hobart would win this round and go on to the next round and win we'd either be insane or jackasses.

One thing that The Rev prides himself on is a deep sense of realism.  Here is reality as The Rev sees it:

Hobart is a respectable team that has made great strides since Coach Maxwell took over in 1991.  We are now perenniel regional contenders.  We are good for a round or two in the play-offs at this point.

For Hobart to become a national rather than regional contender the president of the colleges (plural because of Williams Smith College for Wymyn) would have to make the demand, and the professors would have to get on board.  There is a very strong and deeply entrenched antipathy at the school toward men's sports and anything that smacks of traditional men's roles in society.  There is an unspoken rule that sports at Hobart cannot be seen as being better or more important than academics.  Thus the administration at Hobart, such as Dean Capraro fear nothing more than Football becoming big and Hobart gaining a reputation as a jock school like Ithaca or Cortland. 

Conversely, the administration at William Smith, while not exactly wanting to be considered a jock school, do want a reputation for excellence in sport because William Smith College's main theme is subversion of traditional roles in society.  Sports, once the bastion of men, is now dominated by women.  Thus, sport at William Smith is not about competition, but overthrowing traditional gender roles.  Sport is political.

The Rev suspects that few at Rowan have ever considered sport in the same way that it is discussed at HWS.

You should be thankful for this. 

RadioMike or TGP do you have anything to add, amend or contradict re: HWS's ambivalence toward Hobart athletics?

Rev, I disagree.  All you need is a good system, coach, players and fanbase to build a tradition like the lacrosse team has at Hobart.  Look at Mt. Union, small school like Hobart that still doesnt get that many people at its home games, but obviously has a reputation in other areas....

[Tags]

Wake up call? I think Rowan can win this round and the next, too.  We've beat Mount in Alliance before and we can do it again.  All the way this yeay, baby.  It's a shame you don't think the same for your team.

CK

Well this makes about no sense.
The Rev and RadioMike are Hobart fans.  If we were to think that Hobart would win this round and go on to the next round and win we'd either be insane or jackasses.

One thing that The Rev prides himself on is a deep sense of realism.  Here is reality as The Rev sees it:

Hobart is a respectable team that has made great strides since Coach Maxwell took over in 1991.  We are now perenniel regional contenders.  We are good for a round or two in the play-offs at this point.

For Hobart to become a national rather than regional contender the president of the colleges (plural because of Williams Smith College for Wymyn) would have to make the demand, and the professors would have to get on board.  There is a very strong and deeply entrenched antipathy at the school toward men's sports and anything that smacks of traditional men's roles in society.  There is an unspoken rule that sports at Hobart cannot be seen as being better or more important than academics.  Thus the administration at Hobart, such as Dean Capraro fear nothing more than Football becoming big and Hobart gaining a reputation as a jock school like Ithaca or Cortland. 

Conversely, the administration at William Smith, while not exactly wanting to be considered a jock school, do want a reputation for excellence in sport because William Smith College's main theme is subversion of traditional roles in society.  Sports, once the bastion of men, is now dominated by women.  Thus, sport at William Smith is not about competition, but overthrowing traditional gender roles.  Sport is political.

The Rev suspects that few at Rowan have ever considered sport in the same way that it is discussed at HWS.

You should be thankful for this. 

RadioMike or TGP do you have anything to add, amend or contradict re: HWS's ambivalence toward Hobart athletics?

Rev, I disagree.  All you need is a good system, coach, players and fanbase to build a tradition like the lacrosse team has at Hobart.  Look at Mt. Union, small school like Hobart that still doesnt get that many people at its home games, but obviously has a reputation in other areas....

If anything I'd think having Williams Smith would help get a better draw 8)

[labart96]

Wake up call? I think Rowan can win this round and the next, too.  We've beat Mount in Alliance before and we can do it again.  All the way this yeay, baby.  It's a shame you don't think the same for your team.

CK

Well this makes about no sense.
The Rev and RadioMike are Hobart fans.  If we were to think that Hobart would win this round and go on to the next round and win we'd either be insane or jackasses.

One thing that The Rev prides himself on is a deep sense of realism.  Here is reality as The Rev sees it:

Hobart is a respectable team that has made great strides since Coach Maxwell took over in 1991.  We are now perenniel regional contenders.  We are good for a round or two in the play-offs at this point.

For Hobart to become a national rather than regional contender the president of the colleges (plural because of Williams Smith College for Wymyn) would have to make the demand, and the professors would have to get on board.  There is a very strong and deeply entrenched antipathy at the school toward men's sports and anything that smacks of traditional men's roles in society.  There is an unspoken rule that sports at Hobart cannot be seen as being better or more important than academics.  Thus the administration at Hobart, such as Dean Capraro fear nothing more than Football becoming big and Hobart gaining a reputation as a jock school like Ithaca or Cortland. 

Conversely, the administration at William Smith, while not exactly wanting to be considered a jock school, do want a reputation for excellence in sport because William Smith College's main theme is subversion of traditional roles in society.  Sports, once the bastion of men, is now dominated by women.  Thus, sport at William Smith is not about competition, but overthrowing traditional gender roles.  Sport is political.

The Rev suspects that few at Rowan have ever considered sport in the same way that it is discussed at HWS.

You should be thankful for this. 

RadioMike or TGP do you have anything to add, amend or contradict re: HWS's ambivalence toward Hobart athletics?

TGP is back from his temporary winter solstice - btw this morning it was a Geneva-esque 44 degrees and windy out here in La La Land.

Another close call for Rowan - makes TGP think the woulda coulda if Bart had been able to hang on those last 1:52.

RT -

ND game didn't go exactly as planned (as in the guy who was supposed to deliver TGP's tickets was a no show), but PapaTGP and TGP quickly rectified the situation by seeking out the services of a scalper and ended up getting into the game just after the kickoff.  

Being as we were rooting for the "bad" guys, it was a great time!  Seats were near the end zone over the tunnel and actually most of the action seemed to happen on our end of the field.  SC's defense was sick.  Quinn had no one to throw to all game b/c the coverage was so good.

BTW - at halftime they had Anthony Munoz to the center of the field for an award ceremony.  Old 77 is still one big dude.

Rt Rev -

TGP would disagree with your assessment or at least would want to clarify it by saying TGP doesn't believe that ALL the HWS administration and faculty are anti-athletics.  There are just a couple of folks who are maybe more outspoken about it than others.

Most of our biggest donors have had or have ties to Bart athletics and have a lot of pride given the recent successes (FB and Soccer in the NCAAs, resurrection of our once terrible Hockey program to Frozen 4 contender, Bart beating SU in Lax, etc) of the athletic programs.

Lest you forget, back in the day Hobart's rep was based more on being a "jock school" (ala Bart Lax) than almost anything else.  

The fact the institution is making strides to improve it's academic profile will only benefit the school in the long run.  TGP feels Pres Gearan has done a great job in doing this - especially since some of the classes admitted in the late 80's/early 90's (mine included) weren't exactly of top quality.  

Hobart's FB program has made major strides in the last 10 years, but TGP doubts "national" contention is really that likely since the region in which we obtain the majority of our athletes (NY, MA, etc) is HEAVILY recruited by a lot of other D3 programs including all of our LL counterparts.

[labart96]

Although the string has been retired, TGP's 2 cents on Coach Cragg's call to go for 2 in the Rowan game is this:

Anyone who played for Cragg or has followed Bart since he's taken over as HC should not be surprised in the least he went for it.  Whether you agree with the philosophy or not, it's always been his M.O. to go for the win.

Going for 2 in the Rowan game reminded of the 96 RPI game at the Boz when Nico K caught a low Greg H pass for the 2 pt conversion for the win.  Cragg never plays for a tie.

[Frank Rossi]

Although the string has been retired, TGP's 2 cents on Coach Cragg's call to go for 2 in the Rowan game is this:

Anyone who played for Cragg or has followed Bart since he's taken over as HC should not be surprised in the least he went for it.  Whether you agree with the philosophy or not, it's always been his M.O. to go for the win.

Going for 2 in the Rowan game reminded of the 96 RPI game at the Boz when Nico K caught a low Greg H pass for the 2 pt conversion for the win.  Cragg never plays for a tie.

With all due respect, there's a big difference between 1996 and 2006.  It's called overtime with duel possessions.  I'm doubting the 1996 game was a playoff game (if memory serves), so there was no overtime in that game.  Tough to draw the comparison, in my honest opinion.

I used to get upset on the air about Union's unorthodox play calls at certain points of the game.  It was my belief that Union was better than most of the teams it faced on the field these last couple years, so why get all cute and risk losing the game?  Play like you think you're the better team out there.  Thus, I think Cragg's decisions often send the wrong message to his players -- that they need gadgetry to win games, not just all-out play.  Now, looking specifically at the "going for 2" call, I think it was somewhat haphazard with the time and timeout situations present.  Remember, when Nebraska went for the 2 against Miami in the 80s (I believe it was the 1984 Orange Bowl), it was to avoid an actual end-of-game tie and avoid the questions pollsters may have interjected through votes as to whether Nebraska was #1 or not.  I have very view comparisons for Cragg's call in modern day college football, except for the Syracuse/North Carolina (I believe that was their opponent in the Carrier Dome) game to open the 1998 season -- when UNC went for two in overtime on the road to win.  However, there was no opportunity for Syracuse to respond in that overtime, and UNC caught the Orangemen completely by surprise.  It's still very different from the Hobart/Rowan game decision.

[LUMAN80]

yup

[labart96]

Although the string has been retired, TGP's 2 cents on Coach Cragg's call to go for 2 in the Rowan game is this:

Anyone who played for Cragg or has followed Bart since he's taken over as HC should not be surprised in the least he went for it.  Whether you agree with the philosophy or not, it's always been his M.O. to go for the win.

Going for 2 in the Rowan game reminded of the 96 RPI game at the Boz when Nico K caught a low Greg H pass for the 2 pt conversion for the win.  Cragg never plays for a tie.

With all due respect, there's a big difference between 1996 and 2006.  It's called overtime with duel possessions.  I'm doubting the 1996 game was a playoff game (if memory serves), so there was no overtime in that game.  Tough to draw the comparison, in my honest opinion.

I used to get upset on the air about Union's unorthodox play calls at certain points of the game.  It was my belief that Union was better than most of the teams it faced on the field these last couple years, so why get all cute and risk losing the game?  Play like you think you're the better team out there.  Thus, I think Cragg's decisions often send the wrong message to his players -- that they need gadgetry to win games, not just all-out play.  Now, looking specifically at the "going for 2" call, I think it was somewhat haphazard with the time and timeout situations present.  Remember, when Nebraska went for the 2 against Miami in the 80s (I believe it was the 1984 Orange Bowl), it was to avoid an actual end-of-game tie and avoid the questions pollsters may have interjected through votes as to whether Nebraska was #1 or not.  I have very view comparisons for Cragg's call in modern day college football, except for the Syracuse/North Carolina (I believe that was their opponent in the Carrier Dome) game to open the 1998 season -- when UNC went for two in overtime on the road to win.  However, there was no opportunity for Syracuse to respond in that overtime, and UNC caught the Orangemen completely by surprise.  It's still very different from the Hobart/Rowan game decision.

Frank -

Your memory serves better than mine.  All TGP was trying to say is, haphazard or not, Cragg has a history of going for 2 in close games.

[Tags]

That type of decision making in the playoffs may have cost him a trip to Fisher this weekend TGP. Tags believes you need to give your guys the best opportunity to win.

By the looks of things, they were playing Rowan well enough to be able to take it in OT.

[labart96]

I think Cragg's decisions often send the wrong message to his players -- that they need gadgetry to win games, not just all-out play. 

TGP can't speak for other past Bart players, but TGP will say this - the way Cragg beats the living sh*t out of his players with conditioning during the off and pre-season, TGP seriously doubts anyone on the Bart sideline would think that they would use gadgets vs. just plain out playing/lasting their opponents.

Tags -

Honestly, TGP thinks that given the choice of putting the game in his offense or his defense's hands Cragg went with the latter.  Cragg probably felt given Bart's struggles to move the ball in the second half, plus the kicking problems, plus the interceptions - they had a better shot trying to end it in regulation rather than playing for OT.  In fact, if not for that fumble by the Rowan player, Bart may not have gotten inside Rowan's 10 yd line the rest of the day.

[Tags]

It seemed from hearing bits & pieces that Hobart was hanging close all day - Tags assumes TGS knows what he's talking about though.

Just adding a different point of view.

[mattvsmith]

For Hobart to become a national rather than regional contender the president of the colleges (plural because of Williams Smith College for Wymyn) would have to make the demand, and the professors would have to get on board.  There is a very strong and deeply entrenched antipathy at the school toward men's sports and anything that smacks of traditional men's roles in society.  There is an unspoken rule that sports at Hobart cannot be seen as being better or more important than academics.  Thus the administration at Hobart, such as Dean Capraro fear nothing more than Football becoming big and Hobart gaining a reputation as a jock school like Ithaca or Cortland. 

Conversely, the administration at William Smith, while not exactly wanting to be considered a jock school, do want a reputation for excellence in sport because William Smith College's main theme is subversion of traditional roles in society.  Sports, once the bastion of men, is now dominated by women.  Thus, sport at William Smith is not about competition, but overthrowing traditional gender roles.  Sport is political.

Rev, I disagree.  All you need is a good system, coach, players and fanbase to build a tradition like the lacrosse team has at Hobart.  Look at Mt. Union, small school like Hobart that still doesnt get that many people at its home games, but obviously has a reputation in other areas....

Part of the point I was trying to make is that  there are political reasons why Hobart, as a college, doesn't want its sports team doing too well.  The school is happy to have us get some notariety, but there is a big fear of being known for sports and not for our Men's Studies minor.

The Rev was there when the school was planning the transition from DIII to DI lax.  The school had already become less than enthusiastic that we were stomping everyone's guts out in DIII.  It became less enthusiastic when, as a DIII team we played many DI teams.  When we announced that we were going DI, many professors went ballistic...this will destroy our academic integrity, this will cause more date rape (no kidding), this will make the lacrosse team more elitist, etc, etc.

The Rev also recalls the differnce between the pro- and anti-football factions at Hobart when we hired Coach Maxwell, who had been the offensive coordinator at Syracuse University.  The pro-football faction was ecstatic that we were getting a coach who was the "real deal."  The anti-football crowd (i.e. professors) were angry that we would pick up a D-I coach because this was going to somehow damage the school by making us, so they said, prone to recruit athletes rather than student-athletes.  yada yada yada.

It's nice to say that all we need is a good system, coach, players, etc.  But there's only on institution than can do that: the school itself.  Hobart (and William Smith) simply does not want a national contener.  Individuals in the administration might like it (i.e. the President of the Colleges & the Hobart A.D.) but there is too much opposition from other administrators and professors.  They're a bunch of communist twinkle-toes.

Rt Rev -

TGP would disagree with your assessment or at least would want to clarify it by saying TGP doesn't believe that ALL the HWS administration and faculty are anti-athletics.  There are just a couple of folks who are maybe more outspoken about it than others.

See above.  The Rev thinks the only supporters are the A.D., Pres., and some guys in Alumni and Admissions offices because sports success is always a major draw.

Most of our biggest donors have had or have ties to Bart athletics and have a lot of pride given the recent successes (FB and Soccer in the NCAAs, resurrection of our once terrible Hockey program to Frozen 4 contender, Bart beating SU in Lax, etc) of the athletic programs.

Lest you forget, back in the day Hobart's rep was based more on being a "jock school" (ala Bart Lax) than almost anything else. 

And this kills a lot of the profs and some administrators.

The fact the institution is making strides to improve it's academic profile will only benefit the school in the long run.  TGP feels Pres Gearan has done a great job in doing this - especially since some of the classes admitted in the late 80's/early 90's (mine included) weren't exactly of top quality.

No doubt.  Gearan has done a great job.  Rev reckons that he would make moves to put Hobart on the national scene except a) a revolt at lower levels of admin and faculty; and b) the recruiting problem you mention below.

Hobart's FB program has made major strides in the last 10 years, but TGP doubts "national" contention is really that likely since the region in which we obtain the majority of our athletes (NY, MA, etc) is HEAVILY recruited by a lot of other D3 programs including all of our LL counterparts.

This is a major problem.  Too many schools that cost too much money in too small of an area trying to recruit too few available players.

Last year we had an interesting discussion on LLPP as to why kids from towns like Norwich, NY (which has put up some pretty good state-champ-contender teams) cannot send kids to Hobart, Rochester, Union, RPI, or any other private school in NYS: $$$$$.  SUNY Cortland, Brockport, and Morrisville are already too much of a financial burden to families from rural NY towns like Norwich because the tuition is about the same as our annual per capita income.  We miiss out on a lot of good players because of money.