FB: Liberty League

[Senor RedTackle]

Isn't that what happened in 2003?....same "soft schedule" and ironically, RPI got waxed by Hobart in the last game in 2003 and made it to the final 4.  Enough said.....go cry yourselves to sleep on your meaningless statistic pillows as RPI is competing for the NCAAs.

In all fairness RT, if you are going to rely on 2003 to validate RPI you have to at least mention 1999 and 2001 when RPI skated through a terrible schedule to get home playoff games (and at least one bye) before getting beat 29-10 by Rowan and 27-10 by IC respectively.

Explain the "terrible" part of this schedule? It was pretty much the same throughout the 1990's-early 2000's with a mix-up of the non-conf games. They play a softer schedule now. Utica beat RPI in 2004. Is Fisher or Union or Rochester "terrible"? What about WPI??

RPI 2003:
W   Utica  17-6
W Coast Guard 44-7
W WPI  34-26
W Rochester 47-26
W Union 33-7
W Hartwick 52-7
W St.John Fisher 24-17
W St.Lawrence 55-0
L Hobart 25-43

Playoffs:
W Curry 34-20
W Springfield 40-34
W Ithaca 21-16
L St.John's (MN) 10-38

1999
Head Coach: Joe King
Overall Record: 9-1-0 334-102
Conference Record: 4-0 99-26, First in UCAA

Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 11 Kean W 55-7 Troy
Sep. 18 Coast Guard W 42-3 Troy
Sep. 25 WPI W 42-27 Worcester
Oct. 2 Rochester* W 34-6 Troy
Oct. 16 Union* W 16-7 Troy
Oct. 23 Hartwick W 48-3 Oneonta
Oct. 30 St. John Fisher W 38-7 Pittsford
Nov. 6 St. Lawrence* W 32-7 Canton
Nov. 13 Hobart* W 17-6 Troy
Nov. 20 Rowan$ L 10-29 Troy

2001
Head Coach: Joe King
Overall Record: 8-1-0 269-196
Conference Record: 4-0 133-82, First in UCAA

Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 8 Plymouth State W 17-14 Plymouth
Sep. 22 WPI W 31-14 Worcester
Sep. 29 Rochester* W 31-14 Troy
Oct. 13 Union* W 32-29 Troy
Oct. 20 Hartwick W 62-47 Oneonta
Oct. 27 St. John Fisher W 16-12 Pittsford
Nov. 3 St. Lawrence* W 35-10 Canton
Nov. 10 Hobart* W 35-29 Troy
Nov. 24 Ithaca$ L 10-27 Troy


What's a "great" schedule? Ithaca's?
2007 SCHEDULE & RESULTS (4-2, 1-2 Empire 8)
    W/L IC-OPP   
9/1 at Lycoming (0-5) W 31-6   
9/8 KING'S (0-5) W 29-16   
9/15  at Hartwick (3-2) * L 30-32 
9/22 #6-ST. JOHN FISHER(5-1)* L 16-37   
9/29 BROCKPORT (2-3) W 34-14   
10/6 NORWICH (2-4) * W 35-0 
10/13 Idle     
10/20 at Utica (2-3) *  1:30 p.m.   
10/27 at Springfield (3-2) *   1 p.m.   
11/3 ALFRED (5-0) *   1 p.m. 
11/10 CORTLAND (4-1)   noon

[Frank Rossi]

Am I imagining things or did Union escape w/ their lives against Kings Point 2 years ago?...the same year they went to the NCAAs? 

You are not imagining things.  Union won that game something like 7-0, on a freak last minute fumble recovery or something like that.

It was the biggest unsolved mystery of 2005, so I share your confusion.  USMMA was every bit as hapless in 2005 as they are in 2007, and Union, with Arcidiacono among the national leaders in rushing yardage, couldn't move past the 40 yard line against the Kings Pointers.

As for the D3football.com poll, it seems to me that every year, Ithaca is ranked high in the preseason poll.

Wrong, RS...Union won in OT at USMMA that year and won by a 7-0 score to Coast Guard at home with an Alex Markel interception return for touchdown.  A third cardiac moment was at the midpoint of the season when Union won via a Hail Mary pass at Frankline & Marshall with less than a minute from near midfield.

[redswarm81]

Can someone explain to RT how Alfred is ranked ahead of RPI in the D3.com top 25 poll when RPI is undefeated and AU's only loss is to a team RPI beat (Hobart)??

But yeah, the Hobart scores seem to be a fairly obvious reason to move them ahead of Alfred.

"Fairly obvious?"  "Reason?"

That's, like, logic.  Reason.  Rational thought.  Where's the "that's the way I feel?"

Keith, you have so much to learn.  I commend you to the Erratic8 board, for a lesson in how to respond to requests for explanation of poll voting.

Following accepted E8 board procedures, you could post a picture of a Big Red Pickup Truck with a toothless redneck in the back, and explain that it's a picture of RedTackle posting his questions on Post Patterns.

Ah but here's the rub - RT is well respected, and he doesn't pound on the subject saying the exact same things over, and over, and over, and...

The part you missed is that RT and I both asked questions, but only RT's question was answered.

I don't deny that I repeat my question when it isn't answered.  Frank Rossi does the same thing.

I thought you didn't read my posts.

[redswarm81]

Am I imagining things or did Union escape w/ their lives against Kings Point 2 years ago?...the same year they went to the NCAAs? 

You are not imagining things.  Union won that game something like 7-0, on a freak last minute fumble recovery or something like that.

It was the biggest unsolved mystery of 2005, so I share your confusion.  USMMA was every bit as hapless in 2005 as they are in 2007, and Union, with Arcidiacono among the national leaders in rushing yardage, couldn't move past the 40 yard line against the Kings Pointers.

As for the D3football.com poll, it seems to me that every year, Ithaca is ranked high in the preseason poll.

Wrong, RS...Union won in OT at USMMA that year and won by a 7-0 score to Coast Guard at home with an Alex Markel interception return for touchdown.  A third cardiac moment was at the midpoint of the season when Union won via a Hail Mary pass at Franklin & Marshall with less than a minute from near midfield.

Got it.  I mixed up (some of) the multiple inexplicable, mysterious phenomena of 2005.

It is, after all, Halloween.   

[Frank Rossi]

Attention RT:

If you've read a FRIGGIN' thing I've posted in the last couple weeks, you would have seen that I have come out vehemently against the NCAA's new SoS standard.  I think it does not compare apples with apples, no matter how we re-sort the numbers.  The only reason I cite to the SoS numbers is -- now listen carefully -- BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE NCAA TOLD US WE ARE TO LOOK AT AS ONE OF THE PRIMARY CRITERIA.  

If you also would have read my simplification of the LL Playoff Picture, Edit 2, I stated that RPI at one loss and not making the Pool A LL bid would be a lock in my view of a Pool C bid -- there just aren't enough one-loss teams right now to support excluding them.  The problem comes if RPI were to drop two games -- which IS possible under the conditions of backloading all of the league schedule (not RPI's fault -- it's just how the LL rolls).  RPI at 7-2 with losses to its two best teams on its schedule and an SoS that is near the bottom of the entire Division would spell disaster.  Hobart has a 10th game, a win vs. ranked Alfred and an overall stronger schedule (two Pennsylvania teams) to support it at two losses.  You seem to avoid the question that a lot of us have:  what does RPI have?

I'm going to be spending some time during the offseason petitioning the LL to change the third tiebreaker because I feel, as do many others, that RPI's ability to play "piss-poor scheduling school" and always find its way into the lead for a three-way tiebreaker is getting ludicrous.  There needs to become some incentive for the LL teams to play teams that have some record of success -- and some incentive to play a ten-game schedule.

But tell me something...are you going to really sit there and defend RPI's out-of-conference schedule as "the right thing to do?"  And, for the record, I actually wouldn't want to be where RPI is sitting right now -- on a cold, beat-up '86 Field with Joe King breathing down his team's necks about the need to pull a rabbit out of its hat against what we all think to be an inferior team this season.  

RPI has too much fear about somehow putting itself in a position to lose two games every year because they feel that a Pool C bid would be impossible and they're scared of Union and Hobart on their schedule.  Well, guess what -- Hobart is proving to all of us this year that two losses may not be the death knell.  

[Tags]

I thought you didn't read my posts.

Never said that, that was soopah. I am tired of you playing Ayn Rand though dood - just let it go with the polls. At the end of the day, winning ballgames is all that matters. Where someone ranks in an opinion poll is completely irrelevant.

[Frank Rossi]

What's a "great" schedule? Ithaca's?
2007 SCHEDULE & RESULTS (4-2, 1-2 Empire 8)
    W/L IC-OPP   
9/1 at Lycoming (0-5) W 31-6   
9/8 KING'S (0-5) W 29-16   
9/15  at Hartwick (3-2) * L 30-32 
9/22 #6-ST. JOHN FISHER(5-1)* L 16-37   
9/29 BROCKPORT (2-3) W 34-14   
10/6 NORWICH (2-4) * W 35-0 
10/13 Idle     
10/20 at Utica (2-3) *  1:30 p.m.   
10/27 at Springfield (3-2) *   1 p.m.   
11/3 ALFRED (5-0) *   1 p.m. 
11/10 CORTLAND (4-1)   noon

Ithaca would have received a great deal of consideration at 2 losses, so it must be better than RPI's.  And, indeed, it is -- they know where to find Pennsylvania on a map without their league escorting them out there.

[Senor RedTackle]

Attention RT:

If you've read a FRIGGIN' thing I've posted in the last couple weeks, you would have seen that I have come out vehemently against the NCAA's new SoS standard.  I think it does not compare apples with apples, no matter how we re-sort the numbers.  The only reason I cite to the SoS numbers is -- now listen carefully -- BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE NCAA TOLD US WE ARE TO LOOK AT AS ONE OF THE PRIMARY CRITERIA. 

If you also would have read my simplification of the LL Playoff Picture, Edit 2, I stated that RPI at one loss and not making the Pool A LL bid would be a lock in my view of a Pool C bid -- there just aren't enough one-loss teams right now to support excluding them.  The problem comes if RPI were to drop two games -- which IS possible under the conditions of backloading all of the league schedule (not RPI's fault -- it's just how the LL rolls).  RPI at 7-2 with losses to its two best teams on its schedule and an SoS that is near the bottom of the entire Division would spell disaster.  Hobart has a 10th game, a win vs. ranked Alfred and an overall stronger schedule (two Pennsylvania teams) to support it at two losses.  You seem to avoid the question that a lot of us have:  what does RPI have?

I'm going to be spending some time during the offseason petitioning the LL to change the third tiebreaker because I feel, as do many others, that RPI's ability to play "piss-poor scheduling school" and always find its way into the lead for a three-way tiebreaker is getting ludicrous.  There needs to become some incentive for the LL teams to play teams that have some record of success -- and some incentive to play a ten-game schedule.

But tell me something...are you going to really sit there and defend RPI's out-of-conference schedule as "the right thing to do?"  And, for the record, I actually wouldn't want to be where RPI is sitting right now -- on a cold, beat-up '86 Field with Joe King breathing down his team's necks about the need to pull a rabbit out of its hat against what we all think to be an inferior team this season. 

RPI has too much fear about somehow putting itself in a position to lose two games every year because they feel that a Pool C bid would be impossible and they're scared of Union and Hobart on their schedule.  Well, guess what -- Hobart is proving to all of us this year that two losses may not be the death knell. 

Monsignor Rossi,

1) RT likes your tiebreaker scenario posts...that's about as deep as he goes. Everything else gives RT a headache when we introduce other factors. "Win you're in" is all RT acknowledges. It is what it is..no use reasoning w/ RT on this

2) "And, for the record, I actually wouldn't want to be where RPI is sitting right now -- on a cold, beat-up '86 Field with Joe King breathing down his team's necks about the need to pull a rabbit out of its hat against what we all think to be an inferior team this season. "

You have to be kidding me...where else where would you want to be? - in a warm broadcast booth? Don't get RT wrong...he loves calling games but there is NOTHING that would make RT trade being on the field when fall is in the air and post season is on the line. You insult the RPI players with your comment. Maybe only those of us who ever snapped on a chin strap would understand. So you think a 7-0 team needs extra motivation to play against an in-conference rival, especially when it's the last time this senior class will ever play a home regular-season game? And what "rabbit out of the hat" does RPI need to pull? UR is tough but so is RPI and if they play the way they're capable, then things should take care of themselves in RPI's favor. It's November football, RPI is in the playoff hunt, and they're at home. Dude, when RT was in a similar situation (granted, it was ECAC's..but hey, that was big for us then), it was all he could think about that week. You're mission to find ways to detract from RPI is understandable considering your allegiance to Union, but that's a weak case you're making.

Honestly Frank, RT respects you, but that sentiment hurts your credibility as an informed broadcaster.

[Senor RedTackle]

What's a "great" schedule? Ithaca's?
2007 SCHEDULE & RESULTS (4-2, 1-2 Empire 8)
    W/L IC-OPP   
9/1 at Lycoming (0-5) W 31-6   
9/8 KING'S (0-5) W 29-16   
9/15  at Hartwick (3-2) * L 30-32 
9/22 #6-ST. JOHN FISHER(5-1)* L 16-37   
9/29 BROCKPORT (2-3) W 34-14   
10/6 NORWICH (2-4) * W 35-0 
10/13 Idle     
10/20 at Utica (2-3) *  1:30 p.m.   
10/27 at Springfield (3-2) *   1 p.m.   
11/3 ALFRED (5-0) *   1 p.m. 
11/10 CORTLAND (4-1)   noon

Ithaca would have received a great deal of consideration at 2 losses, so it must be better than RPI's.  And, indeed, it is -- they know where to find Pennsylvania on a map without their league escorting them out there.

yeah...Norwich, Lycoming, and Kings would push them over the top. Much better than Becker and Endicott.....leaps and bounds

[Senor RedTackle]

And, indeed, it is -- they know where to find Pennsylvania on a map without their league escorting them out there.

did anyone else get this one? RT is no doctor jurisprudence so maybe he's not intelligent enough to understand the insult.  Does Susquehanna not play Union or have they limited their LL schedule to just 1 game against RPI at home in 2007?

[Frank Rossi]

Attention RT:

If you've read a FRIGGIN' thing I've posted in the last couple weeks, you would have seen that I have come out vehemently against the NCAA's new SoS standard.  I think it does not compare apples with apples, no matter how we re-sort the numbers.  The only reason I cite to the SoS numbers is -- now listen carefully -- BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE NCAA TOLD US WE ARE TO LOOK AT AS ONE OF THE PRIMARY CRITERIA. 

If you also would have read my simplification of the LL Playoff Picture, Edit 2, I stated that RPI at one loss and not making the Pool A LL bid would be a lock in my view of a Pool C bid -- there just aren't enough one-loss teams right now to support excluding them.  The problem comes if RPI were to drop two games -- which IS possible under the conditions of backloading all of the league schedule (not RPI's fault -- it's just how the LL rolls).  RPI at 7-2 with losses to its two best teams on its schedule and an SoS that is near the bottom of the entire Division would spell disaster.  Hobart has a 10th game, a win vs. ranked Alfred and an overall stronger schedule (two Pennsylvania teams) to support it at two losses.  You seem to avoid the question that a lot of us have:  what does RPI have?

I'm going to be spending some time during the offseason petitioning the LL to change the third tiebreaker because I feel, as do many others, that RPI's ability to play "piss-poor scheduling school" and always find its way into the lead for a three-way tiebreaker is getting ludicrous.  There needs to become some incentive for the LL teams to play teams that have some record of success -- and some incentive to play a ten-game schedule.

But tell me something...are you going to really sit there and defend RPI's out-of-conference schedule as "the right thing to do?"  And, for the record, I actually wouldn't want to be where RPI is sitting right now -- on a cold, beat-up '86 Field with Joe King breathing down his team's necks about the need to pull a rabbit out of its hat against what we all think to be an inferior team this season. 

RPI has too much fear about somehow putting itself in a position to lose two games every year because they feel that a Pool C bid would be impossible and they're scared of Union and Hobart on their schedule.  Well, guess what -- Hobart is proving to all of us this year that two losses may not be the death knell. 

Monsignor Rossi,

1) RT likes your tiebreaker scenario posts...that's about as deep as he goes. Everything else gives RT a headache when we introduce other factors. "Win you're in" is all RT acknowledges. It is what it is..no use reasoning w/ RT on this

2) "And, for the record, I actually wouldn't want to be where RPI is sitting right now -- on a cold, beat-up '86 Field with Joe King breathing down his team's necks about the need to pull a rabbit out of its hat against what we all think to be an inferior team this season. "

You have to be kidding me. Maybe only those of us who ever snapped on a chin strap would understand. So you think a 7-0 team needs extra motivation to play against an in-conference rival, especially when it's the last time this senior class will ever play a home regular-season game? And what "rabbit out of the hat" does RPI need to pull? UR is tough but so is RPI and if they play the way they're capable, then things should take care of themselves in RPI's favor. It's November football, RPI is in the playoff hunt, and they're at home. Dude, when RT was in a similar situation (granted, it was ECAC's..but hey, that was big for us then), it was all he could think about that week. You're mission to find ways to detract from RPI is understandable considering your allegiance to Union, but that's a weak case you're making.

Honestly Frank, RT respects you, but that sentiment hurts your credibility as an informed broadcaster.

The rabbit was last weekend -- You DO remember last weekend, when you dissed me in 'toga-town, right?

And, RT, answer my question.  Defend RPI's schedule this year...  We're waiting.

And, finally, I'm focusing on Ithaca's out-of-conference schedule (ya know, Norwich is in the E8 still):  Lycoming is a historically moderate opponent...King's is normally in the same category as Lycoming...Brockport and Cortland are normally powerhouses in NY football.  So, they have scheduled a balance in their four out-of-conference games which appears a little down compared to what those teams have down in the past.  What has RPI scheduled?  Utica and Becker.  Please expound on Utica and Becker and their history of success over the past decade...

Talk about lacking integrity.

[Frank Rossi]

And, indeed, it is -- they know where to find Pennsylvania on a map without their league escorting them out there.

did anyone else get this one? RT is no doctor jurisprudence so maybe he's not intelligent enough to understand the insult.  Does Susquehanna not play Union or have they limited their LL schedule to just 1 game against RPI at home in 2007?

Union has been playing Muhlenberg and Franklin & Marshall for years.  My point was that the only way RPI plays in Pennsylvania is by league mandate (i.e., the scheduling of Susquehanna).  You're not reading what I'm writing.  Slow down boss.

[Tags]

Tags will be checking out of the LLPP for the rest of the morning - keeping his head down on the way out while RT & Frank exchange blows.

Stay classy.

[Senor RedTackle]

Attention RT:

If you've read a FRIGGIN' thing I've posted in the last couple weeks, you would have seen that I have come out vehemently against the NCAA's new SoS standard.  I think it does not compare apples with apples, no matter how we re-sort the numbers.  The only reason I cite to the SoS numbers is -- now listen carefully -- BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THE NCAA TOLD US WE ARE TO LOOK AT AS ONE OF THE PRIMARY CRITERIA. 

If you also would have read my simplification of the LL Playoff Picture, Edit 2, I stated that RPI at one loss and not making the Pool A LL bid would be a lock in my view of a Pool C bid -- there just aren't enough one-loss teams right now to support excluding them.  The problem comes if RPI were to drop two games -- which IS possible under the conditions of backloading all of the league schedule (not RPI's fault -- it's just how the LL rolls).  RPI at 7-2 with losses to its two best teams on its schedule and an SoS that is near the bottom of the entire Division would spell disaster.  Hobart has a 10th game, a win vs. ranked Alfred and an overall stronger schedule (two Pennsylvania teams) to support it at two losses.  You seem to avoid the question that a lot of us have:  what does RPI have?

I'm going to be spending some time during the offseason petitioning the LL to change the third tiebreaker because I feel, as do many others, that RPI's ability to play "piss-poor scheduling school" and always find its way into the lead for a three-way tiebreaker is getting ludicrous.  There needs to become some incentive for the LL teams to play teams that have some record of success -- and some incentive to play a ten-game schedule.

But tell me something...are you going to really sit there and defend RPI's out-of-conference schedule as "the right thing to do?"  And, for the record, I actually wouldn't want to be where RPI is sitting right now -- on a cold, beat-up '86 Field with Joe King breathing down his team's necks about the need to pull a rabbit out of its hat against what we all think to be an inferior team this season. 

RPI has too much fear about somehow putting itself in a position to lose two games every year because they feel that a Pool C bid would be impossible and they're scared of Union and Hobart on their schedule.  Well, guess what -- Hobart is proving to all of us this year that two losses may not be the death knell. 

Monsignor Rossi,

1) RT likes your tiebreaker scenario posts...that's about as deep as he goes. Everything else gives RT a headache when we introduce other factors. "Win you're in" is all RT acknowledges. It is what it is..no use reasoning w/ RT on this

2) "And, for the record, I actually wouldn't want to be where RPI is sitting right now -- on a cold, beat-up '86 Field with Joe King breathing down his team's necks about the need to pull a rabbit out of its hat against what we all think to be an inferior team this season. "

You have to be kidding me. Maybe only those of us who ever snapped on a chin strap would understand. So you think a 7-0 team needs extra motivation to play against an in-conference rival, especially when it's the last time this senior class will ever play a home regular-season game? And what "rabbit out of the hat" does RPI need to pull? UR is tough but so is RPI and if they play the way they're capable, then things should take care of themselves in RPI's favor. It's November football, RPI is in the playoff hunt, and they're at home. Dude, when RT was in a similar situation (granted, it was ECAC's..but hey, that was big for us then), it was all he could think about that week. You're mission to find ways to detract from RPI is understandable considering your allegiance to Union, but that's a weak case you're making.

Honestly Frank, RT respects you, but that sentiment hurts your credibility as an informed broadcaster.

The rabbit was last weekend -- You DO remember last weekend, when you dissed me in 'toga-town, right?

And, Ren, answer my question.  Defend RPI's schedule this year...  We're waiting.

And, finally, I'm focusing on Ithaca's out-of-conference schedule (ya know, Norwich is in the E8 still):  Lycoming is a historically moderate opponent...King's is normally in the same category as Lycoming...Brockport and Cortland are normally powerhouses in NY football.  So, they have scheduled a balance in their four out-of-conference games which appears a little down compared to what those teams have down in the past.  What has RPI scheduled?  Utica and Becker.  Please expound on Utica and Becker and their history of success over the past decade...

Talk about lacking integrity.

Frank,

Again.....what is the point you're trying to make on RPI's schedule?  Seriously...it's escaping me and is growing old. The reality is that if RPI wins the LL, they did it by beating enough teams they had to beat to win the title. It's pretty binary. There's no "phantom" aspect to the LL title. And if they make it to the NCAA's  and don't deserve to be there, then that will get flushed out pretty quickly after opening kickoff. We all play each other and who's left standing deserves to go. That's all the RPI community, I would assume, cares about at the beginning of the season...winning the league and going to the NCAA's.

When RT talks to his friends in the RPI football community, the conversation isn't "boy...I hope we play enough tough teams to be considered for a Pool C bid if we don't win the league". The conversation tends to be "let's take care of business and if we don't beat the teams we're supposed to, then we probably don't deserve a bid".

What is your fixation on RPI's schedule? I would be more concerned as a Union fan about winning out then about who RPI has played outside the league. Perhaps RT should infer that Union isn't that good because all they've done is win LL games (like RPI) but can't win out of conference games. Using my personal method of deduction, RT thinks Hobart is much better than Union, since Hobart beat Alfred (a top tier E8 team) while Union got handled by Springfield (a top tier E8 team). Since RPI beat Hobart in Geneva (yes Frank, tell us it was a lucky win..they all are, right?), then RT feels RPI is a good football team. As a former RPI player and fan, would I love to see some big NY names (Ithaca, Alfred, etc) added to the schedule? ...sure, it'd be a nice barometer for us. But guess what, the powers that be make the schedule and they seem to have found a formula that works....3 NCAA appearances and a slew of ECACs in the last 8 years. What is Union's comparative stat there?

...and since you have vividly pointed out how "lucky" RPI was against WPI last Saturday, you can lump them in w/ 2005 Union (an NCAA playoff team) and all their stellar wins...

[Pat Coleman]

As for the D3football.com poll, it seems to me that every year, Ithaca is ranked high in the preseason poll.

Only if you don't pay attention to the past three years. Ithaca's preseason rankings:

2003: 9
2004: 13
2005: 17
2006: 24
2007: 33