FB: Liberty League

[stimulator]

Question: What does RPI have?                   
Answer: 0 Losses

Question: Where was last weeknds game?     
Answer: Not '86 Field

Question: What is an inferior team?             
Answer: A team who Hobart  "trounced" by 10 and Union led 10-3 midway through the 4th Qtr

Question: What is a "rabbit out of a hat"?
Answer: Hobart for being in a game they trailed in the 4th 21-7 parlaying a tremendous dump pass into an 80 yard score and then capitalizing on suceeding 15 and 9 yard punts into scores.

Have to agree w/ SRT here.  RPI has beaten the teams they have needed to beat and if they don't belong in the NCAA's it will be apparent early in the playoffs.... if they make it.
Union will have their shot at RPI as will a challenging Roch team.

Can't wait till Sat..

[Knightstalker]

Question: What is a "rabbit out of a hat"?

Hey Rocky watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.

OOPS! Wrong Hat.

[PBR...]

As for the D3football.com poll, it seems to me that every year, Ithaca is ranked high in the preseason poll.

Only if you don't pay attention to the past three years. Ithaca's preseason rankings:

2003: 9
2004: 13
2005: 17
2006: 24
2007: 33

pbr see's a trend here....

[JQV]

Explain the "terrible" part of this schedule? It was pretty much the same throughout the 1990's-early 2000's with a mix-up of the non-conf games. They play a softer schedule now. Utica beat RPI in 2004. Is Fisher or Union or Rochester "terrible"? What about WPI??

RPI 2003:
W   Utica  17-6
W Coast Guard 44-7
W WPI  34-26
W Rochester 47-26
W Union 33-7
W Hartwick 52-7
W St.John Fisher 24-17
W St.Lawrence 55-0
L Hobart 25-43

Playoffs:
W Curry 34-20
W Springfield 40-34
W Ithaca 21-16
L St.John's (MN) 10-38

1999
Head Coach: Joe King
Overall Record: 9-1-0 334-102
Conference Record: 4-0 99-26, First in UCAA

Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 11 Kean W 55-7 Troy
Sep. 18 Coast Guard W 42-3 Troy
Sep. 25 WPI W 42-27 Worcester
Oct. 2 Rochester* W 34-6 Troy
Oct. 16 Union* W 16-7 Troy
Oct. 23 Hartwick W 48-3 Oneonta
Oct. 30 St. John Fisher W 38-7 Pittsford
Nov. 6 St. Lawrence* W 32-7 Canton
Nov. 13 Hobart* W 17-6 Troy
Nov. 20 Rowan$ L 10-29 Troy

2001
Head Coach: Joe King
Overall Record: 8-1-0 269-196
Conference Record: 4-0 133-82, First in UCAA

Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 8 Plymouth State W 17-14 Plymouth
Sep. 22 WPI W 31-14 Worcester
Sep. 29 Rochester* W 31-14 Troy
Oct. 13 Union* W 32-29 Troy
Oct. 20 Hartwick W 62-47 Oneonta
Oct. 27 St. John Fisher W 16-12 Pittsford
Nov. 3 St. Lawrence* W 35-10 Canton
Nov. 10 Hobart* W 35-29 Troy
Nov. 24 Ithaca$ L 10-27 Troy


What's a "great" schedule? Ithaca's?
2007 SCHEDULE & RESULTS (4-2, 1-2 Empire 8)
    W/L IC-OPP   
9/1 at Lycoming (0-5) W 31-6   
9/8 KING'S (0-5) W 29-16   
9/15  at Hartwick (3-2) * L 30-32 
9/22 #6-ST. JOHN FISHER(5-1)* L 16-37   
9/29 BROCKPORT (2-3) W 34-14   
10/6 NORWICH (2-4) * W 35-0 
10/13 Idle     
10/20 at Utica (2-3) *  1:30 p.m.   
10/27 at Springfield (3-2) *   1 p.m.   
11/3 ALFRED (5-0) *   1 p.m. 
11/10 CORTLAND (4-1)   noon

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond RT but I was in a hearing.  

In the two years I referred to, 1999 and 2001, I would say these teams were terrible:

1999
Head Coach: Joe King
Overall Record: 9-1-0 334-102
Conference Record: 4-0 99-26, First in UCAA

Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 11 Kean W 55-7 Troy
Sep. 18 Coast Guard W 42-3 Troy
Sep. 25 WPI W 42-27 Worcester
Oct. 2 Rochester* W 34-6 Troy
Oct. 16 Union* W 16-7 Troy
Oct. 23 Hartwick W 48-3 Oneonta
Oct. 30 St. John Fisher W 38-7 Pittsford
Nov. 6 St. Lawrence* W 32-7 Canton
Nov. 13 Hobart* W 17-6 Troy
Nov. 20 Rowan$ L 10-29 Troy

2001
Head Coach: Joe King
Overall Record: 8-1-0 269-196
Conference Record: 4-0 133-82, First in UCAA

Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 8 Plymouth State W 17-14 Plymouth
Sep. 22 WPI W 31-14 Worcester
Sep. 29 Rochester* W 31-14 Troy
Oct. 13 Union* W 32-29 Troy
Oct. 20 Hartwick W 62-47 Oneonta
Oct. 27 St. John Fisher W 16-12 Pittsford
Nov. 3 St. Lawrence* W 35-10 Canton
Nov. 10 Hobart* W 35-29 Troy
Nov. 24 Ithaca$ L 10-27 Troy

[stimulator]

Reread my post and did not want to seem like I was disparaging Hobart..

They were very impressive in the only game (against RPI) I saw and obviously have had a great season.  They have been lucky (CM) and unlucky (Dickinson) and both (IMHO) against RPI.

They have put up some great offensive numbers and I am (and was early) a fan of their QB.

If they win out the selection committee would be making a good choice for them to make it.. even w/ two losses

[Senor RedTackle]

Explain the "terrible" part of this schedule? It was pretty much the same throughout the 1990's-early 2000's with a mix-up of the non-conf games. They play a softer schedule now. Utica beat RPI in 2004. Is Fisher or Union or Rochester "terrible"? What about WPI??

RPI 2003:
W   Utica  17-6
W Coast Guard 44-7
W WPI  34-26
W Rochester 47-26
W Union 33-7
W Hartwick 52-7
W St.John Fisher 24-17
W St.Lawrence 55-0
L Hobart 25-43

Playoffs:
W Curry 34-20
W Springfield 40-34
W Ithaca 21-16
L St.John's (MN) 10-38

1999
Head Coach: Joe King
Overall Record: 9-1-0 334-102
Conference Record: 4-0 99-26, First in UCAA

Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 11 Kean W 55-7 Troy
Sep. 18 Coast Guard W 42-3 Troy
Sep. 25 WPI W 42-27 Worcester
Oct. 2 Rochester* W 34-6 Troy
Oct. 16 Union* W 16-7 Troy
Oct. 23 Hartwick W 48-3 Oneonta
Oct. 30 St. John Fisher W 38-7 Pittsford
Nov. 6 St. Lawrence* W 32-7 Canton
Nov. 13 Hobart* W 17-6 Troy
Nov. 20 Rowan$ L 10-29 Troy

2001
Head Coach: Joe King
Overall Record: 8-1-0 269-196
Conference Record: 4-0 133-82, First in UCAA

Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 8 Plymouth State W 17-14 Plymouth
Sep. 22 WPI W 31-14 Worcester
Sep. 29 Rochester* W 31-14 Troy
Oct. 13 Union* W 32-29 Troy
Oct. 20 Hartwick W 62-47 Oneonta
Oct. 27 St. John Fisher W 16-12 Pittsford
Nov. 3 St. Lawrence* W 35-10 Canton
Nov. 10 Hobart* W 35-29 Troy
Nov. 24 Ithaca$ L 10-27 Troy


What's a "great" schedule? Ithaca's?
2007 SCHEDULE & RESULTS (4-2, 1-2 Empire 8)
    W/L IC-OPP   
9/1 at Lycoming (0-5) W 31-6   
9/8 KING'S (0-5) W 29-16   
9/15  at Hartwick (3-2) * L 30-32 
9/22 #6-ST. JOHN FISHER(5-1)* L 16-37   
9/29 BROCKPORT (2-3) W 34-14   
10/6 NORWICH (2-4) * W 35-0 
10/13 Idle     
10/20 at Utica (2-3) *  1:30 p.m.   
10/27 at Springfield (3-2) *   1 p.m.   
11/3 ALFRED (5-0) *   1 p.m. 
11/10 CORTLAND (4-1)   noon

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond RT but I was in a hearing. 

In the two years I referred to, 1999 and 2001, I would say these teams were terrible:

1999
Head Coach: Joe King
Overall Record: 9-1-0 334-102
Conference Record: 4-0 99-26, First in UCAA

Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 11 Kean W 55-7 Troy
Sep. 18 Coast Guard W 42-3 Troy
Sep. 25 WPI W 42-27 Worcester
Oct. 2 Rochester* W 34-6 Troy
Oct. 16 Union* W 16-7 Troy
Oct. 23 Hartwick W 48-3 Oneonta
Oct. 30 St. John Fisher W 38-7 Pittsford
Nov. 6 St. Lawrence* W 32-7 Canton
Nov. 13 Hobart* W 17-6 Troy
Nov. 20 Rowan$ L 10-29 Troy

2001
Head Coach: Joe King
Overall Record: 8-1-0 269-196
Conference Record: 4-0 133-82, First in UCAA

Date Opponent Result Location
Sep. 8 Plymouth State W 17-14 Plymouth
Sep. 22 WPI W 31-14 Worcester
Sep. 29 Rochester* W 31-14 Troy
Oct. 13 Union* W 32-29 Troy
Oct. 20 Hartwick W 62-47 Oneonta
Oct. 27 St. John Fisher W 16-12 Pittsford
Nov. 3 St. Lawrence* W 35-10 Canton
Nov. 10 Hobart* W 35-29 Troy
Nov. 24 Ithaca$ L 10-27 Troy

You could be right...RT is surprised, though, to hear you say SJF and Hartwick were "terrible" in 2001. Anyone know their records? Also, was Plymouth St. bad in 2001??

[Frank Rossi]

Frank,

Again.....what is the point you're trying to make on RPI's schedule?  Seriously...it's escaping me and is growing old. The reality is that if RPI wins the LL, they did it by beating enough teams they had to beat to win the title. It's pretty binary. There's no "phantom" aspect to the LL title. And if they make it to the NCAA's  and don't deserve to be there, then that will get flushed out pretty quickly after opening kickoff. We all play each other and who's left standing deserves to go. That's all the RPI community, I would assume, cares about at the beginning of the season...winning the league and going to the NCAA's.

When RT talks to his friends in the RPI football community, the conversation isn't "boy...I hope we play enough tough teams to be considered for a Pool C bid if we don't win the league". The conversation tends to be "let's take care of business and if we don't beat the teams we're supposed to, then we probably don't deserve a bid".

What is your fixation on RPI's schedule? I would be more concerned as a Union fan about winning out then about who RPI has played outside the league. Perhaps RT should infer that Union isn't that good because all they've done is win LL games (like RPI) but can't win out of conference games. Using my personal method of deduction, RT thinks Hobart is much better than Union, since Hobart beat Alfred (a top tier E8 team) while Union got handled by Springfield (a top tier E8 team). Since RPI beat Hobart in Geneva (yes Frank, tell us it was a lucky win..they all are, right?), then RT feels RPI is a good football team. As a former RPI player and fan, would I love to see some big NY names (Ithaca, Alfred, etc) added to the schedule? ...sure, it'd be a nice barometer for us. But guess what, the powers that be make the schedule and they seem to have found a formula that works....3 NCAA appearances and a slew of ECACs in the last 8 years. What is Union's comparative stat there?

...and since you have vividly pointed out how "lucky" RPI was against WPI last Saturday, you can lump them in w/ 2005 Union (an NCAA playoff team) and all their stellar wins...

First, you opened up this can of worms and need for examination when you brought up the terrible D3Football.com Poll situation -- when, in fact, there are several explanations.  SoS is definitely one of them.  I've simply provided you the argument that will continue to dog RPI until they make changes to that schedule.

You keep teetering on the whole line of, "I don't care about no stinkin' poll and SoS numbers" to the defense of RPI's SoS and criticisms of the poll numbers.  You're right, "win and you're in."  My job here is to remind you that, should you NOT win, what will happen.  I've never injected anything else into the weekly playoff scenario posts, and you know it.  I remember in 2005 the collective mouth dropping that occurred when I announced on here that RPI would win a three-way tie should RPI have beaten Union (then 9-0) to end the season.  This year, there's less on the mouth dropping since RPI has no losses, but the basis for which it would win the three-way tiebreakers is just tough to swallow for everyone else.  Take a step out of your RPI shoes and chinstraps for a moment...what if Union played Utica and Becker and led the three-way tiebreaker scenario every year because of it?  You'd be the first to sit there and cry foul.  When this scenario plays itself out as possible for three consecutive years, we have a problem.  Yet, I don't ignore the problem and take shots at RPI in the factual posts I put up here...I just bring up RPI's schedule deficiencies when someone like you tries to sit there and defend it.  Even 'gro has admitted in the past that he knows that RPI's schedule has some issues -- but he plays passive in that it is out of his control.  At least he admits it -- I can appreciate that and it's why I actually think 'gro has a lot of integrity here.

As for Union's 2005 season -- I think anyone here would tell you flat out that I was leading the pack of the, "Nice win, BUT..." chorus during the three cardiac finishes midseason.  Union paid a price in the polls for this throughout the year -- and if I can find the hard numbers, I'll post them later up here.  It was so bad that, even at 9-0, we weren't sure that a 9-1 Union would merit a Pool C bid (retrospectively, though, it looks like the Committee would have picked Union since Hobart did reach the NCAAs through Pool C and Union beat Hobart that season).  I didn't act like "Everything's wonderful" that season because those wins were not something to be extremely proud of.  The four wins that followed (SLU, HOB, RPI, ITH) were much more convincing and showed that that team had a great deal of talent.  RPI has two games left to prove to the pollsters you are/are not concerned about that it's made of something beyond Hail Mary passes (Hobart, WPI), a late surge (SLU) and four sleepers (Utica, Becker, Susquehanna, USMMA).  I just accounted for all seven of your games -- they're wins, and you should be happy with them -- but the point is, to paraphrase Eminem, "Will the REAL RPI please stand up?"  

Remember that 2005 Union beat Springfield, Muhlenberg and F&M in its non-conference schedule to at least give us some idea of whether Union was real or a pretender that year.  RPI can't really claim the same just yet.  And, like I said, I was hyper-critical of Union's play in spite of the early-season wins.

[Stlarry]

You could be right...RT is surprised, though, to hear you say SJF and Hartwick were "terrible" in 2001. Anyone know their records? Also, was Plymouth St. bad in 2001??

Stlarry was a pup freshman in 2001, and remembers SJF being almost as bad as us, and were considered the whipping boys of the E8 at that point.  If memory serves correctly, it was a 7 point game at SJF.  Hartwick was decent, but not great.

[mattvsmith]

USMMA was every bit as hapless in 2005 as they are in 2007

+K for using the word "hapless."  Excellent choice.

[Frank Rossi]

You could be right...RT is surprised, though, to hear you say SJF and Hartwick were "terrible" in 2001. Anyone know their records? Also, was Plymouth St. bad in 2001??

Stlarry was a pup freshman in 2001, and remembers SJF being almost as bad as us, and were considered the whipping boys of the E8 at that point.  If memory serves correctly, it was a 7 point game at SJF.  Hartwick was decent, but not great.

Looking back at 2001, there was a lot of confusion and consternation about RPI receiving the #1 Seed in the East back when there were 28 teams and a bye week for that seed.  The problem was that RPI was 8-0 and other teams seemed to have a better body of work on which to lay.  The other concern that UCAA schools had was whether RPI, should it falter in the playoffs, would leave a bad taste in the Committee's mouth for UCAA schools in future years.  Thankfully, RPI made a big run in 2003 -- but I remember 2001 well for the implications and the view everyone had back then that RPI's 8-0 was a questionable #1-seed-worthy performance.  (Not being critical here, just reciting my memories of what happened six years ago for those who weren't around.)

[mattvsmith]

I am tired of you playing Ayn Rand though dood

+K for Ayn Rand.

You guys are downright literary today.

Is it all of the candy from Halloween?

[dlippiel]

RT-you are out of control. Utica and Endicott is a pathetic OOC schedule and does not deserve any respect. Please use your head here. RPI controls its own destiny,..but...they have not defeated teams the way one woud think they should have. How can you not agree with that? RPI plays a joke schedule early each year period. Until they beat the two or three other solid teams in the LL we have no idea what they are made of. You want your cake before you have earned it! When it comes down to it I think Joe King does this on purpose. I think he starts easy and builds up to provide his team with an early opportunity to believe in themselves and feel success. He thinks Union is crazy for starting out with Springfield each year and he would never do it. I think it is smart in one way but the in the other he cannot and does not expect his team to get national attention until they prove themselves. Which so far RPI has only done once this season in beating Hobart.

[Frank Rossi]

Here's Union's 2005 progression in the D3Football.com Poll:

Week  Rank  Points   W-L    Opponent/Score
----  ----  ------  -----   --------------
  0    58      1     0-0    None
  1    48      2     0-0    None
  2    44      4     1-0    Springfield (35-7 W)
  3    33     15     2-0    at Muhlenberg (22-14 W)
  4    34     20     3-0    at Rochester (41-28 W)
  5    36     15     4-0    at USMMA (23-17 OT W)
  6    33     20     5-0    WPI (31-3 W)
  7    33     23     6-0    at F&M (14-10 W)
  8    32     22     7-0    USCGA (7-0 W)
  9    29     28     8-0    at St. Lawrence (40-21 W)
10    24     76     9-0    Hobart (28-18 W)
11    19    197    10-0    RPI (49-42 W)
16    14    290    11-1    Ithaca (55-41 W)/Rowan (28-24 L)

Union did not break the Top 25 until its 9th game of the season (against Hobart).  The USMMA/F&M/USCGA stretch in three out of four weeks moved Union from 34th to 32nd.  So I'm not sure what in the hell you're complaining about RT.

[Senor RedTackle]

Frank,

Again.....what is the point you're trying to make on RPI's schedule?  Seriously...it's escaping me and is growing old. The reality is that if RPI wins the LL, they did it by beating enough teams they had to beat to win the title. It's pretty binary. There's no "phantom" aspect to the LL title. And if they make it to the NCAA's  and don't deserve to be there, then that will get flushed out pretty quickly after opening kickoff. We all play each other and who's left standing deserves to go. That's all the RPI community, I would assume, cares about at the beginning of the season...winning the league and going to the NCAA's.

"When RT talks to his friends in the RPI football community, the conversation isn't "boy...I hope we play enough tough teams to be considered for a Pool C bid if we don't win the league". The conversation tends to be "let's take care of business and if we don't beat the teams we're supposed to, then we probably don't deserve a bid".

What is your fixation on RPI's schedule? I would be more concerned as a Union fan about winning out then about who RPI has played outside the league. Perhaps RT should infer that Union isn't that good because all they've done is win LL games (like RPI) but can't win out of conference games. Using my personal method of deduction, RT thinks Hobart is much better than Union, since Hobart beat Alfred (a top tier E8 team) while Union got handled by Springfield (a top tier E8 team). Since RPI beat Hobart in Geneva (yes Frank, tell us it was a lucky win..they all are, right?), then RT feels RPI is a good football team. As a former RPI player and fan, would I love to see some big NY names (Ithaca, Alfred, etc) added to the schedule? ...sure, it'd be a nice barometer for us. But guess what, the powers that be make the schedule and they seem to have found a formula that works....3 NCAA appearances and a slew of ECACs in the last 8 years. What is Union's comparative stat there?

...and since you have vividly pointed out how "lucky" RPI was against WPI last Saturday, you can lump them in w/ 2005 Union (an NCAA playoff team) and all their stellar wins...

First, you opened up this can of worms and need for examination when you brought up the terrible D3Football.com Poll situation -- when, in fact, there are several explanations.  SoS is definitely one of them.  I've simply provided you the argument that will continue to dog RPI until they make changes to that schedule.

You keep teetering on the whole line of, "I don't care about no stinkin' poll and SoS numbers" to the defense of RPI's SoS and criticisms of the poll numbers.  You're right, "win and you're in."  My job here is to remind you that, should you NOT win, what will happen.  I've never injected anything else into the weekly playoff scenario posts, and you know it.  I remember in 2005 the collective mouth dropping that occurred when I announced on here that RPI would win a three-way tie should RPI have beaten Union (then 9-0) to end the season.  This year, there's less on the mouth dropping since RPI has no losses, but the basis for which it would win the three-way tiebreakers is just tough to swallow for everyone else.  Take a step out of your RPI shoes and chinstraps for a moment...what if Union played Utica and Becker and led the three-way tiebreaker scenario every year because of it?  You'd be the first to sit there and cry foul.  When this scenario plays itself out as possible for three consecutive years, we have a problem.  Yet, I don't ignore the problem and take shots at RPI in the factual posts I put up here...I just bring up RPI's schedule deficiencies when someone like you tries to sit there and defend it.  Even 'gro has admitted in the past that he knows that RPI's schedule has some issues -- but he plays passive in that it is out of his control.  At least he admits it -- I can appreciate that and it's why I actually think 'gro has a lot of integrity here.

As for Union's 2005 season -- I think anyone here would tell you flat out that I was leading the pack of the, "Nice win, BUT..." chorus during the three cardiac finishes midseason.  Union paid a price in the polls for this throughout the year -- and if I can find the hard numbers, I'll post them later up here.  It was so bad that, even at 9-0, we weren't sure that a 9-1 Union would merit a Pool C bid (retrospectively, though, it looks like the Committee would have picked Union since Hobart did reach the NCAAs through Pool C and Union beat Hobart that season).  I didn't act like "Everything's wonderful" that season because those wins were not something to be extremely proud of.  The four wins that followed (SLU, HOB, RPI, ITH) were much more convincing and showed that that team had a great deal of talent.  RPI has two games left to prove to the pollsters you are/are not concerned about that it's made of something beyond Hail Mary passes (Hobart, WPI), a late surge (SLU) and four sleepers (Utica, Becker, Susquehanna, USMMA).  I just accounted for all seven of your games -- they're wins, and you should be happy with them -- but the point is, to paraphrase Eminem, "Will the REAL RPI please stand up?" 

Remember that 2005 Union beat Springfield, Muhlenberg and F&M in its non-conference schedule to at least give us some idea of whether Union was real or a pretender that year.  RPI can't really claim the same just yet.  And, like I said, I was hyper-critical of Union's play in spite of the early-season wins.

Frank..for some reason, when RT asks a sincere question (for example RPI in the D3 poll), you seem to take that as an invitation to go on a tirade against RT & against RPI's schedule strength and "lucky wins". To your point: "..what if Union played Utica and Becker and led the three-way tiebreaker scenario every year because of it? You'd be the first to sit there and cry foul.".  Well 1) that hasn't been the case 'every year' so stop  speculating on "what if's" and deal with reality and 2) maybe the RPI administration is smarter than we though and kudos to them to maximizing the system for what it is...imperfect.

The fact of the matter is that for 100 years, RPI football was about as successful and popular as a condom salesman at a Ron Jeremy shoot. If the stars have been lining up to where the program is competing on a yearly basis for an NCAA bid, than this fan is happy. If the scheduling hasn't been an issue, then RT doesn't care and will let the Frank Rossi's of the world take their shots. 

And besides Frank, we all know you're smart then everyone else so RT won't debate that..........

[RJ]

BC's is now promoting Matt Ryan  for the Heisman ... Who's is in the running for "The Gagliardi Trophy" this year


http://bceagles.cstv.com/mattryan/