FB: Liberty League

[lewdogg11]

My big issue with steroids is that I don't think they make you a better baseball player, but they potentially allow you to be able to perform for a much longer period of time.  That is why I have an issue with Bonds' and Clemens' records.  Are they Hall of Famers?  Absolutely.  But they wouldn't have broken all of these records and played into their 40's at such a high level without some help.  McGuire mashed when he was a skinny little kid.  He had a couple BIG seasons towards the end.  But his body broke down on him and he had a typical length career.  Bonds and Clemens have defied the odds with the length of their careers and level of performance they have been able to play at.

[JQV]

Lets get back to official business.
NFL Cheerleaders
Some of the pics here make a good case for going to Jacksonville.

In a related story.  I took a deposition in Jacksonville yesterday and pics 12-16 was the Court Reporter I used.

[PBR...]

My big issue with steroids is that I don't think they make you a better baseball player, but they potentially allow you to be able to perform for a much longer period of time.  That is why I have an issue with Bonds' and Clemens' records.  Are they Hall of Famers?  Absolutely.  But they wouldn't have broken all of these records and played into their 40's at such a high level without some help.  McGuire mashed when he was a skinny little kid.  He had a couple BIG seasons towards the end.  But his body broke down on him and he had a typical length career.  Bonds and Clemens have defied the odds with the length of their careers and level of performance they have been able to play at.

spot on LD...most people have speculated and imho correctly that bonds looked around at mcgwire/sosa et al were pounding baseballs and getting huge endorsements and bonds was doing things the "right" way and getting no where so if you cant beat them join them...so he started juicin since he knew many others were juicin to keep up. this is how it all started to spin out of control as the players knew others were doing it so to keep up they had to do it and it just snowballed from there. the owners knew what was going on but w/ attendance way up especially during the hr. chase between mcgwire/sosa they werent going to say anything...just keep the payola rollin in and everyone kept their mouths shut and heads stuck in the sand

[Knightstalker]

Lets get back to official business.
NFL Cheerleaders
Some of the pics here make a good case for going to Jacksonville.

In a related story.  I took a deposition in Jacksonville yesterday and pics 12-16 was the Court Reporter I used.

KS hopes you requested she work in her Jags uniform.

[Knightstalker]

My big issue with steroids is that I don't think they make you a better baseball player, but they potentially allow you to be able to perform for a much longer period of time.  That is why I have an issue with Bonds' and Clemens' records.  Are they Hall of Famers?  Absolutely.  But they wouldn't have broken all of these records and played into their 40's at such a high level without some help.  McGuire mashed when he was a skinny little kid.  He had a couple BIG seasons towards the end.  But his body broke down on him and he had a typical length career.  Bonds and Clemens have defied the odds with the length of their careers and level of performance they have been able to play at.

spot on LD...most people have speculated and imho correctly that bonds looked around at mcgwire/sosa et al were pounding baseballs and getting huge endorsements and bonds was doing things the "right" way and getting no where so if you cant beat them join them...so he started juicin since he knew many others were juicin to keep up. this is how it all started to spin out of control as the players knew others were doing it so to keep up they had to do it and it just snowballed from there. the owners knew what was going on but w/ attendance way up especially during the hr. chase between mcgwire/sosa they werent going to say anything...just keep the payola rollin in and everyone kept their mouths shut and heads stuck in the sand

KS was just reading the list on ESPN.COM, they have a summary on what is in the report for each player.  Many of the players started because of injury.  KS is thinking that since the two people they got most of the information from were around or employed by the Yankees that is why they are so prevelant in the report.  KS figures that probably a similiar percentage or even greater used on every team over the same time span.

What KS really wants to know is how can all these players be so stupid that they paid for their illegal drugs with a check.  If you make that much money you should be able to keep a couple of grand around in cash for you drugs.  STOOPIT

[Jonny Utah]

My big issue with steroids is that I don't think they make you a better baseball player, but they potentially allow you to be able to perform for a much longer period of time.  That is why I have an issue with Bonds' and Clemens' records.  Are they Hall of Famers?  Absolutely.  But they wouldn't have broken all of these records and played into their 40's at such a high level without some help.  McGuire mashed when he was a skinny little kid.  He had a couple BIG seasons towards the end.  But his body broke down on him and he had a typical length career.  Bonds and Clemens have defied the odds with the length of their careers and level of performance they have been able to play at.

Your right LD, but they were talking today on the radio how Dan Duquette kind of looks like the good guy in all this.  Heres Duquette saying that Clemens is at the twilight of his career at the time when the sox were going to resign him, and he didnt sign him because he thought his career was on the decline.  Looks like he may have been right.  Heres Clemens all these years trying to make Duquette and the Red Sox look like losers because they made the wrong choice in not resigning him.  Maybe he should have just told him that he was going to legally take HGH at the time and that it would make him even better in 10 years! 

I guess my point is that maybe Clemens career would have been below average after his last average year with the sox in the early 1990s if he didnt start to use steroids?  (Im assuming he started using them after he left the sox?)

[Knightstalker]

Johnny, it appears that he started in Toronto, supposedly this is when he started working out with Nolan Ryan. 

[Jonny Utah]

Well, the Mitchell Report is out...and now I sit here saying to myself, "OK, NOW WHAT?!"

I mean, all these active players can't be suspended without actual drug tests.  The former players will possibly, but not definitely be affected in their run toward Cooperstown.  There's still trouble accurately testing for all types of performance-enhancing drugs, a term that still has no really concrete definition.  All we have is a stigma attaching to a group of players which is selective and not all-inclusive at the end of the day -- but a stigma applied to many isn't such a horrible stigma.

Unfortunately, I think the Mitchell Report will cause more muddle than solutions.  I was hoping for something more, I guess, and I'm a little disappointed by the reality now that the shoe has dropped.

It would be tough since it is an "independent" investigation, although it probably has turned up some "conpiracy to commit drug violation" offenses with the canceled checks and phone records. 

Im sure the possession and steroid use charges can and will be thrown out (as they are/were in the Bonds case)

But the old drug buy/conspiracy stuff would be the only thing the players would have to worry about.

Most of the players implicated have no history really (at least publicly known history) that could lead to anything more than slaps on the wrist for the "crimes" they alledgedly committed --

What was Vicks history of dog crimes before he went to jail for 2 years?

My point being is that signed checks to buy illegal drugs might violate federal drug laws and it seems that there might be more that enough proof (signed checks right?) to get these guys.  Im not saying thats anyones intent in this either, just speculation.

[PBR...]

pbr wants to see how quickly these bodies break down now...they are going to look like a bunch of old crippled men trying to run around

[Jonny Utah]

And I kind of thought this whole thing makes Bonds look better.  Now he has a whole company of characters with him so it really wouldnt be fair to single him out.....

Although he is the biggest squid amongst the bunch.

[Jonny Utah]

And what does this report accomplish?

My opinion is that it basically tells guys that if you use illegal drugs (even the ones that cant be detected now) you will be called out later, and you will look bad.

I know it doesnt sound like much, but Clemens has to ask himself if it was worth the 135 million he made after he left the redsox for putting up with all this the rest of his life. (it probably was)

On one hand, I look at Clemens and Rodney Harrison in the same light.  Here are two players that were already all-pro guys before the illegal use and maybe hall of famers.  Now they have an injury (or fatness in clemens case) and the way to keep making money (100X as much in Clemens case) is to use these drugs to heal themselves.

[Rolevio]

Rolevio would like to thank KS for helping to elongate the life of LLPP'ers.

[JQV]

And what does this report accomplish?

I think the report accomplishes a few things.

First, it opens the door for MLB to take further punitive action.  The defense all along has been, we aren't going to punish anyone over speculation.  Now that they have something of an independent analysis pointing the finger, they can take the next step and start re-writing history.  Selig is a moron though, so nothing may come of this.

Second, it insulates MLB from accusations that they just looked the other way. 

Third, it erases any grounds the Union has to argue against more testing.  Donald Fehr is a moron but even he knows he can't go to the mattresses over that issue now and come out a winner.

KS, I think you are seeing a lot of Yankees on the list because the Yankees were signing those players when they hit the backside of their careers.  The more old stars you sign, the more likely you are to hit on a steroid user.

Max, you are way out of line.  Scuffing the ball and juicing are totally different things.

[union89]

My big issue with steroids is that I don't think they make you a better baseball player, but they potentially allow you to be able to perform for a much longer period of time.  That is why I have an issue with Bonds' and Clemens' records.  Are they Hall of Famers?  Absolutely.  But they wouldn't have broken all of these records and played into their 40's at such a high level without some help.  McGuire mashed when he was a skinny little kid.  He had a couple BIG seasons towards the end.  But his body broke down on him and he had a typical length career.  Bonds and Clemens have defied the odds with the length of their careers and level of performance they have been able to play at.

Your right LD, but they were talking today on the radio how Dan Duquette kind of looks like the good guy in all this.  Heres Duquette saying that Clemens is at the twilight of his career at the time when the sox were going to resign him, and he didnt sign him because he thought his career was on the decline.  Looks like he may have been right.  Heres Clemens all these years trying to make Duquette and the Red Sox look like losers because they made the wrong choice in not resigning him.  Maybe he should have just told him that he was going to legally take HGH at the time and that it would make him even better in 10 years! 

I guess my point is that maybe Clemens career would have been below average after his last average year with the sox in the early 1990s if he didnt start to use steroids?  (Im assuming he started using them after he left the sox?)

Utah, I was going to post exactly what you said here........U89 hated Dan Duquette, but he's the biggest 'winner' in this entire 'Mitchell Report'.  For all the lumps he took for, "Roger is in the twi-light of his career" statement, The Duke looks brilliant while The Rocket looks like he was desperate 8-10 years ago.............and I'm a Clemens fan..........

[union89]

And what does this report accomplish?

I think the report accomplishes a few things.

First, it opens the door for MLB to take further punitive action.  The defense all along has been, we aren't going to punish anyone over speculation.  Now that they have something of an independent analysis pointing the finger, they can take the next step and start re-writing history.  Selig is a moron though, so nothing may come of this.

Second, it insulates MLB from accusations that they just looked the other way. 

Third, it erases any grounds the Union has to argue against more testing.  Donald Fehr is a moron but even he knows he can't go to the mattresses over that issue now and come out a winner.

KS, I think you are seeing a lot of Yankees on the list because the Yankees were signing those players when they hit the backside of their careers.  The more old stars you sign, the more likely you are to hit on a steroid user.

Max, you are way out of line.  Scuffing the ball and juicing are totally different things.

U89 scratches his balls all the time.....is that wrong??