FB: Liberty League

[maxpower]

In case one has been living under a rock on Mars for the last decade, RT wanted to pass along the epitome of 'Manny being Manny'. RT is curious to know what Manny's personal pregame routine is and hope he makes the adujstment to being required to be on the park on time and take the "usual" batting practice.

(from ESPN.com)

"I'm the new guy in town, so I don't know Mattingly's particular routine. I'll stick to mine while I adapt to his, which is being at the park on time and going through the usual batting routine prior to each game," he concluded

For the record about Manny.....for everything negative that he does that he brings upon himself. It is well known that nobody in MLB prepares themselves to the extent that Manny does. The man shows to the ballpark at 11am for a 7pm game for bp! There has never been a documented problem with Manny that has anything to do with batting. Running to 1st, different story!

Yea, I wouldn't worry about Manny not being prepared to hit the baseball.  I don't think there was ever a question of him being a guy that didn't work on improving his game.  But the other stuff makes me laugh.  Heres a great article about some of that from the Boston Globe...

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/08/02/out_of_boston_ramxedrez_still_in_la_la_land/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed6

But heres a quote from that article that just makes you laugh.  Manny always went with his own rules.  He did what he wanted to, and rules for other players never applied to him.

"I got to cut it, guys," Manny Ramírez said yesterday at his introductory press conference behind home plate at Dodger Stadium. "I'm going to look like a baby now . . . They got some rules here. I don't want them to treat me different than the other guys."

Heres another article from Gerry Callahan about Manny.  I've never seen a sports figure ripped apart like Manny is in this article.  It really shows what kind of person he is and what many people felt about him in Boston.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1110406

Articles like that are written by bitter old men that wish they were ballplayers.

Nah, this guys is the man maxpower.  I think hes right on the money with this one....

This article is dead nuts. You don't have to be a former ballplayer to realize that Manny is only interested in himself, and to hell with anyone else.

To not share a moment of your time with some kids who probably won't even be alive in a few years, [/b]that's bush league. We're not talking about giving money, just a few minutes with kids who look up to you and you could give them a day where they could be happy and just enjoy the moment - this guy is trash.

No amount of RBI's or HR's can make up for this dood's antics, or his little girl attitude. The Sox will be better off without him, even if they do lose what he brought to the lineup.

Yeah, it's bush league, I'm not arguing that. But you get these articles written all the time about players that seem "selfish" or "not in it for the team", there's probably one a month. They're all about non-white players, and they're all written without even the slightest attempt to actually engage the player in a conversation about why he acts this way. I'm not a journalist, and it took me all of 15 seconds to find this:

http://www.mannyramirez.com/foundation.htm?

Not mentioned in the article. What a surprise. We all think we know how we would act if we were rich and famous, but none of us are (I think), so we don't REALLY know, do we? And guys like this put their own assumptions and prejudices into a de facto attack on a guy he's never met and knows nothing about.  That, to me, is bush league.

And congratulations to Theo Epstein, for throwing a guy under the bus that is one of the only reasons you still have a job, integral to both championships and the recent run of success. I guess showing up four hours before the rest of the players every day to work on your game is not "conducive to winning".

[Tags]

Individuals can't win a world series max - I think you're taking a pretty short sighted view of this.

If the entire team can't stand him, and if he only plays / plays hard when he feels like it, do you think that's conducive to winning? Evidently you think showing up early & being able to hit a baseball as well as anyone allows you to only play when you feel like it or throw tantrum's in the media that disrupt the focus of a ballclub.

Callahan has covered Manny for his entire tenor there, I think he's got a pretty good read on him. I also think Theo was only being truthful, and handled it with tact. He could have taken it much further than that.

Edit:

RE: non-white comment

That's a ridiculous statement.

[Jonny Utah]

In case one has been living under a rock on Mars for the last decade, RT wanted to pass along the epitome of 'Manny being Manny'. RT is curious to know what Manny's personal pregame routine is and hope he makes the adujstment to being required to be on the park on time and take the "usual" batting practice.

(from ESPN.com)

"I'm the new guy in town, so I don't know Mattingly's particular routine. I'll stick to mine while I adapt to his, which is being at the park on time and going through the usual batting routine prior to each game," he concluded

For the record about Manny.....for everything negative that he does that he brings upon himself. It is well known that nobody in MLB prepares themselves to the extent that Manny does. The man shows to the ballpark at 11am for a 7pm game for bp! There has never been a documented problem with Manny that has anything to do with batting. Running to 1st, different story!

Yea, I wouldn't worry about Manny not being prepared to hit the baseball.  I don't think there was ever a question of him being a guy that didn't work on improving his game.  But the other stuff makes me laugh.  Heres a great article about some of that from the Boston Globe...

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2008/08/02/out_of_boston_ramxedrez_still_in_la_la_land/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed6

But heres a quote from that article that just makes you laugh.  Manny always went with his own rules.  He did what he wanted to, and rules for other players never applied to him.

"I got to cut it, guys," Manny Ramírez said yesterday at his introductory press conference behind home plate at Dodger Stadium. "I'm going to look like a baby now . . . They got some rules here. I don't want them to treat me different than the other guys."

Heres another article from Gerry Callahan about Manny.  I've never seen a sports figure ripped apart like Manny is in this article.  It really shows what kind of person he is and what many people felt about him in Boston.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1110406

Articles like that are written by bitter old men that wish they were ballplayers.

Nah, this guys is the man maxpower.  I think hes right on the money with this one....

This article is dead nuts. You don't have to be a former ballplayer to realize that Manny is only interested in himself, and to hell with anyone else.

To not share a moment of your time with some kids who probably won't even be alive in a few years, [/b]that's bush league. We're not talking about giving money, just a few minutes with kids who look up to you and you could give them a day where they could be happy and just enjoy the moment - this guy is trash.

No amount of RBI's or HR's can make up for this dood's antics, or his little girl attitude. The Sox will be better off without him, even if they do lose what he brought to the lineup.

Yeah, it's bush league, I'm not arguing that. But you get these articles written all the time about players that seem "selfish" or "not in it for the team", there's probably one a month. They're all about non-white players, and they're all written without even the slightest attempt to actually engage the player in a conversation about why he acts this way. I'm not a journalist, and it took me all of 15 seconds to find this:

http://www.mannyramirez.com/foundation.htm?

Not mentioned in the article. What a surprise. We all think we know how we would act if we were rich and famous, but none of us are (I think), so we don't REALLY know, do we? And guys like this put their own assumptions and prejudices into a de facto attack on a guy he's never met and knows nothing about.  That, to me, is bush league.

And congratulations to Theo Epstein, for throwing a guy under the bus that is one of the only reasons you still have a job, integral to both championships and the recent run of success. I guess showing up four hours before the rest of the players every day to work on your game is not "conducive to winning".

How did Theo throw this guy under the bus?  Manny threw his boss to the ground and the team didnt suspend him.  He was enabled his whole career.  Are you trying to tell me that the red sox situation was a great one with the recent crap he has been pulling?

Im going to say 90% of pro athletes have some sort of foundation.  Thats easy.  Im not saying everything he did was bad, or that pro-athletes dont do great things off the field because they do.  But this manny-bashing has not come from one-herald sports writer.  This info has come from multiple sources and multiple stories. 

Ive followed the Boston Red sox probably more than anyone and I go to 5-15 games every year.  And if you think only non-white players get that treatment in Boston or anywhere, Id love to see what would happen if Wade Boggs or Roger Clemens played at Fenway in an opposing uniform one more time.  Pedro get cheered every time he comes back, and Clemens gets booed.  Its how you leave and for what reason. 

I dont know what manny does for other people you are right.   And I dont really know if Barry Bonds is a bad person either.  But when you read over and over from pretty credible sources what these guys are really like, I think the non-athlete (fan, writer) can form legitimate informed opinions about that person.

[JT]

JU,

You are right.  You can tell the "didn't play the game" journalists from the rest.  There is just something off about Manny and Barry.  BTW Barry father was an azzhole too.

JT would kill for Manny's hands and wrists.  I watch those every time I see him hit.  Its like he's holding a toilet paper roll.  So light... so relaxed.  JT would be a Yankee HOF with those hands.  JT tries and tries... a good softball hitter now, but he still strangles the bat.

[maxpower]

Tags-

Theo handling it with tact would have been to say "Manny was a crucial part of this Red Sox team for many years, and we wish him good luck in LA."

Re: the entire team not being able to stand him, no, I don't think the clubhouse politics have very much to do with winning compared to practicing baseball. There have been plenty of teams with terrible clubhouses that have had a lot of success. See the 77-78 Yankees or 86 Mets, to name just a few. I think that stuff about attitude gets blown way out of proportion, especially with a hitter like Manny.

As far as the charity stuff, I'm sorry, I just don't care about what athletes do in their spare time. I don't think being rich and famous requires you to do community work. How many of the people that deride Manny spend time with sick children, esp. the guy that wrote that article? When a doctor refuses to spend time with sick children, that's something to worry about. With celebrities, it's up to them, just like it's up to any of us.

The non-white thing is pretty apparent to me, not necessarily on a case-by-case basis, but if you see a report on a young prospect that says he has "make-up problems", 9 times out of 10 he will not be a white player. Barry Bonds got lambasted for being a clubhouse poison after his fight with Jeff Kent, about whom no one talks about being a problem in the clubhouse. How obvious was it that Clemens was on steroids the same time period that Barry was, and yet we just hear about it in the last year and people act shocked? I'm not accusing YOU guys of stuff like this, I'm saying that these articles that come out about a player that is a problem in the clubhouse or with his attitude are, 9 times out of 10, about non-white players.

JT- I don't necessarily think "playing the game" makes you any better of a journalist... but your comment confuses me... did you like the article, but dislike the author?


EDIT: A couple clarifying points:

1) I am a Yankee fan, but love Manny.
2) I think it was a good trade for the Sox, because Bay will provide as much offense (probably) and better defense than Manny, and if they are equal players, THEN you can look and say the attitude makes a difference.
3) Go Bombers.


EDITEDIT:

JU-

RE: reading credible sources to formulate an opinion, I see what you're saying. i just don't consider most sportswriters to be credible sources because a) they have to say nice things about players so that the players will talk to them, or b) they're the opposite, removed from the situation and yet blasting a guy from a typewriter when they've never even talked them (anyone from Rochester knows that (b) is a damn good description of Bob Mathews.)

EDIT EDIT EDIT:

JU-

I seem to remember the second-to-last or so time Roger "retired", getting a standing ovation in his Yankee uni as he left the field at the Fens.

[Reno Hightower]

Tags-

Theo handling it with tact would have been to say "Manny was a crucial part of this Red Sox team for many years, and we wish him good luck in LA."

Re: the entire team not being able to stand him, no, I don't think the clubhouse politics have very much to do with winning compared to practicing baseball. There have been plenty of teams with terrible clubhouses that have had a lot of success. See the 77-78 Yankees or 86 Mets, to name just a few. I think that stuff about attitude gets blown way out of proportion, especially with a hitter like Manny.

As far as the charity stuff, I'm sorry, I just don't care about what athletes do in their spare time. I don't think being rich and famous requires you to do community work. How many of the people that deride Manny spend time with sick children, esp. the guy that wrote that article? When a doctor refuses to spend time with sick children, that's something to worry about. With celebrities, it's up to them, just like it's up to any of us.

The non-white thing is pretty apparent to me, not necessarily on a case-by-case basis, but if you see a report on a young prospect that says he has "make-up problems", 9 times out of 10 he will not be a white player. Barry Bonds got lambasted for being a clubhouse poison after his fight with Jeff Kent, about whom no one talks about being a problem in the clubhouse. How obvious was it that Clemens was on steroids the same time period that Barry was, and yet we just hear about it in the last year and people act shocked? I'm not accusing YOU guys of stuff like this, I'm saying that these articles that come out about a player that is a problem in the clubhouse or with his attitude are, 9 times out of 10, about non-white players.

JT- I don't necessarily think "playing the game" makes you any better of a journalist... but your comment confuses me... did you like the article, but dislike the author?


EDIT: A couple clarifying points:

1) I am a Yankee fan, but love Manny.
2) I think it was a good trade for the Sox, because Bay will provide as much offense (probably) and better defense than Manny, and if they are equal players, THEN you can look and say the attitude makes a difference.
3) Go Bombers.

Great points. The stuff about Theo's comments is right on. When the Sox were taking heat for letting Nomah/Pedro/Lowe/Damon leave they threw all of them under the bus with things they had done wrong when they were in Red Sox Uniforms, and this bothered Manny. And that is what he meant when he said the Red Sox organization didnt deserve him because he knew they were about to do the same to him. Whats funny about it, is that Theo's comments were toned down from when he threw the other players under the bus but he still couldnt be completely classy about it and say something like you suggested Max!

Theo and company obviously feel the need to explain themselves to Red Sox Nation when they let go or get rid of a popular player. If they just handled it with class, they may take some heat at the moment, but one thing this regime has shown is that when they let a player go, they are usually correct (no player whom they have let go has played at the level they played at when they were in Boston). And the real fans know this. What worries me is that future free agents will see this and be less inclined to sign in Boston. I know money talks but a lot of other teams are spending money these days, not just the Sox and Yanks.

[Jonny Utah]

Tags-

Theo handling it with tact would have been to say "Manny was a crucial part of this Red Sox team for many years, and we wish him good luck in LA."

Re: the entire team not being able to stand him, no, I don't think the clubhouse politics have very much to do with winning compared to practicing baseball. There have been plenty of teams with terrible clubhouses that have had a lot of success. See the 77-78 Yankees or 86 Mets, to name just a few. I think that stuff about attitude gets blown way out of proportion, especially with a hitter like Manny.

As far as the charity stuff, I'm sorry, I just don't care about what athletes do in their spare time. I don't think being rich and famous requires you to do community work. How many of the people that deride Manny spend time with sick children, esp. the guy that wrote that article? When a doctor refuses to spend time with sick children, that's something to worry about. With celebrities, it's up to them, just like it's up to any of us.

The non-white thing is pretty apparent to me, not necessarily on a case-by-case basis, but if you see a report on a young prospect that says he has "make-up problems", 9 times out of 10 he will not be a white player. Barry Bonds got lambasted for being a clubhouse poison after his fight with Jeff Kent, about whom no one talks about being a problem in the clubhouse. How obvious was it that Clemens was on steroids the same time period that Barry was, and yet we just hear about it in the last year and people act shocked? I'm not accusing YOU guys of stuff like this, I'm saying that these articles that come out about a player that is a problem in the clubhouse or with his attitude are, 9 times out of 10, about non-white players.

JT- I don't necessarily think "playing the game" makes you any better of a journalist... but your comment confuses me... did you like the article, but dislike the author?

Maxpower,

I dont think athletes have to go out of their way and do all sorts of charity work, but I think something should be done.  These athletes have the power to things that even doctors cant do.  They can change these kids lives by even spending a little time with them.  it says something to me when every single redsox player except him goes to the walter reed center to visit injured soldiers, and the multiple stories of how Manny never gave anything back to his high school coach after promising to, and how he never stopped by to see the sick kids with cancer etc etc.  

As for the clubhouse, here are just a few quotes from people in that lockeroom who would disagree with you...

David Ortiz: "Things got to the point where they had to do something - and they did. They're happy, Manny's happy. I'm going to miss my man, I'm not going to lie to you, but we're looking forward. The team needed it."

Jason Varitek: "Things escalated to degrees where something had to be done either way. ...Either way, I think it's a relief that there's closure to something that's been going on for the last week or 10 days. I'm just relieved there's an actual solution, which there was going to be, regardless, on this day."

Jonathan Papelbon: "From the front-office standpoint, I feel like this did have to happen. Sometimes you make decisions, regardless of whether you got a worse player or better player out of that deal - it makes your team as a whole better. I think that's what their decisions was based on, that feeling of camaraderie and 25 guys playing for the same goal."

Mike Lowell: "I think (Ramirez' constant griping) had a big impact on people in upper management because there are important decisions to be made in the next couple of years."

Ive always heard that Jeff Kent was an a-hole, and barry was a bigger one.  As for clemens, I just never saw his body transform the way Bonds' and McGuires did.  So the steroid issue was always a question with him (before recent events).

As for the reports about non-white players being diagnosed as "problems" you are probably right.  But I dont think that excuses the fact that Manny Ramirez was a selfish person and a bad teamate.

EDIT:
Max, Gerry Callahan is under category B, and he doesnt kiss anyones ass for the sake of getting information (the opposite of Peter Gammons).

Clemens was cheered and booed.  But would get booed 100% now in my opinion.

[Jonny Utah]

Tags-

Theo handling it with tact would have been to say "Manny was a crucial part of this Red Sox team for many years, and we wish him good luck in LA."

Re: the entire team not being able to stand him, no, I don't think the clubhouse politics have very much to do with winning compared to practicing baseball. There have been plenty of teams with terrible clubhouses that have had a lot of success. See the 77-78 Yankees or 86 Mets, to name just a few. I think that stuff about attitude gets blown way out of proportion, especially with a hitter like Manny.

As far as the charity stuff, I'm sorry, I just don't care about what athletes do in their spare time. I don't think being rich and famous requires you to do community work. How many of the people that deride Manny spend time with sick children, esp. the guy that wrote that article? When a doctor refuses to spend time with sick children, that's something to worry about. With celebrities, it's up to them, just like it's up to any of us.

The non-white thing is pretty apparent to me, not necessarily on a case-by-case basis, but if you see a report on a young prospect that says he has "make-up problems", 9 times out of 10 he will not be a white player. Barry Bonds got lambasted for being a clubhouse poison after his fight with Jeff Kent, about whom no one talks about being a problem in the clubhouse. How obvious was it that Clemens was on steroids the same time period that Barry was, and yet we just hear about it in the last year and people act shocked? I'm not accusing YOU guys of stuff like this, I'm saying that these articles that come out about a player that is a problem in the clubhouse or with his attitude are, 9 times out of 10, about non-white players.

JT- I don't necessarily think "playing the game" makes you any better of a journalist... but your comment confuses me... did you like the article, but dislike the author?


EDIT: A couple clarifying points:

1) I am a Yankee fan, but love Manny.
2) I think it was a good trade for the Sox, because Bay will provide as much offense (probably) and better defense than Manny, and if they are equal players, THEN you can look and say the attitude makes a difference.
3) Go Bombers.

Great points. The stuff about Theo's comments is right on. When the Sox were taking heat for letting Nomah/Pedro/Lowe/Damon leave they threw all of them under the bus with things they had done wrong when they were in Red Sox Uniforms, and this bothered Manny. And that is what he meant when he said the Red Sox organization didnt deserve him because he knew they were about to do the same to him. Whats funny about it, is that Theo's comments were toned down from when he threw the other players under the bus but he still couldnt be completely classy about it and say something like you suggested Max!

Theo and company obviously feel the need to explain themselves to Red Sox Nation when they let go or get rid of a popular player. If they just handled it with class, they may take some heat at the moment, but one thing this regime has shown is that when they let a player go, they are usually correct (no player whom they have let go has played at the level they played at when they were in Boston). And the real fans know this. What worries me is that future free agents will see this and be less inclined to sign in Boston. I know money talks but a lot of other teams are spending money these days, not just the Sox and Yanks.

I think the sox are great businessmen and you are right about the money.  If the sox gave Manny 5 years/70 million before the season, none of this crap would ever have happend.  It was more of a dirty contract dispute tactic on Mannys part in my opinion this time.

[maxpower]

JU-

The problem I have is how much of those quotes are referring to the treatment of Manny by the front office, rather than the treatment of the team by Manny? All I heard from Manny the past month was that the Red Sox have made it clear they didn't want him there... they were kind of treating him like the Mets were treating Randolph before he was fired (well maybe not THAT badly).

The non-white thing doesn't excuse Manny, of course not, I just thought it was relevant to the article in question.

[Hugh Likbols]

Cant help myself.  Manny couldnt pass a GED!!!!!!   What makes him a great person?  I used to be able to hit a 88 fastball, now?  Manny is an "Anal Sphincter" sit back and think about it.  You think hes tha......      my answer is .........HAHAHAHAH.  Time heals all wounds........

[JT]

max,

I like the article.  You don't diss the injured soldiers or the sick when one so heralded has the chance. Foundation or no foundation.

[superman57]

Ok manny is an azz clown... I think we all know that, but the Red Sox had a history of handling these situations badly, When Nomar, who I personally like and cheer for is saying manny is making some points, then maybe we should listen to him

[Jonny Utah]

JU-

The problem I have is how much of those quotes are referring to the treatment of Manny by the front office, rather than the treatment of the team by Manny? All I heard from Manny the past month was that the Red Sox have made it clear they didn't want him there... they were kind of treating him like the Mets were treating Randolph before he was fired (well maybe not THAT badly).

The non-white thing doesn't excuse Manny, of course not, I just thought it was relevant to the article in question.

I just put those quotes in there to show how the team was effected by the situation, and it was in response to your quote here:

"I don't think the clubhouse politics have very much to do with winning compared to practicing baseball. There have been plenty of teams with terrible clubhouses that have had a lot of success. See the 77-78 Yankees or 86 Mets, to name just a few. I think that stuff about attitude gets blown way out of proportion, especially with a hitter like Manny."

And I 100% disagree that the red sox did anything to show Manny that they did not want him here.  The red sox have a clear history of not always signing players before their contracts are up.  Sometimes they do (Schilling, Ortiz, Varetik), and sometimes they dont (Nomar, Pedro, Lowe, Ramirez, Vaughn).  But its not like they dont want to sign these players because they dont like them, they dont sign them because the risk and money is too high.  And I belive that philosophy has worked out for them.

And this case with Manny right now is different in the fact that Manny was now doing things that he has never done before.  He always missed random games, but they were always scheduled.  He never just pulled himself out of the lineup before a big game.  And Ive never heard anyone question him about not swinging at pitches on purpose as he did on a few occasions the last few games.

And Supe what points is Manny making? 

Lets not forget that Nomar turned down a 4 year 60 million dollar contract that the red sox offered him.  That offer was more than fair.

Mo Vaughn?  Would he have been worth 50-100 million?

Now it would appear that not signing Clemens was a bad decision, but now with the steroids.....?

[superman57]

what about Damon, Lowe, Pedro... they notoriusly throw guys under the bus when they leave

[Jonny Utah]

what about Damon, Lowe, Pedro... they notoriusly throw guys under the bus when they leave

How did they throw any of these guys under the bus?  I mean, Damon said he would never play for the yankees, and then he did, so I can see booing him.

Pedro is still loved in Boston and would he have produced WS numbers at this point in his career?  The sox didnt want to sign him to big money and long years because of the injury thing.  And what do ya know, here is is hurt all the time again.  And from what I recall, the mets were going to outbid the sox up to a point anyway.

Lowe Im not so sure of.  I cant rememeber how much money he wanted.  But I think a lot of that stuff came down to the team having a lot of A+ players at the end of their contracts.  You cant give everyone what they want right?