FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

Doesn't ANYBODY read my ATR column?!   

WPI has won 13 non-conference games in a row, but you see how far that gets them when LL play starts.

Read?  Who the hell reads anymore?!  But to answer RedSwarm's question, WPI's geography has a little bit to do with their non-conference schedule.  Because of the school's location in relation to the rest of the Liberty League, WPI doesn't want to travel long distances for the non-conference portion of its schedule (it already does that 3 or 4 times in its conference schedule).  Worcester State is also a rivalry game for WPI, so that one can't come off.  The one plus for WPI is that at least they face a 10-game schedule (3 non-conference games).  I give thumbs up for that fact for reasons I explained ad nauseum in 2007.  The only enhancement that I could ever see happening is WPI dropping either UMass-Dartmouth or Becker and gaining either Coast Guard or Western Connecticut to minimize travel to some extent.

- Frank

I agree that the WPI geographical issue makes sense--have they so stated in press releases or interviews?  It's a tad ironic that RPI travels to WPI's back yard to play Endicott.

I agree with (Martini &) Rossi, to the extent that a 10 game schedule improves a team's attractiveness for at-large playoff selection.  In that regard, I have for many years encouraged the Originaleers to schedule a marquee non-conference game against a team such as Springfield (whose marquee value is currently lower than its book value) or St. John Fisher (whose current marquee value might be irrationally exuberant).

However, as I discussed ad nauseum several years (and hundreds of karma points) ago, I think a 10 game schedule is the (somewhat arbitrary, I admit) threshold where player safety concerns increase--it is impossible to maintain the level of physical conditioning necessary to play high quality football safely over a loooong season (fact).  Furthermore, add to that a potential 5 week playoff and a two week preseason, and you have guaranteed an academic impact in terms of reduced time available for academics (fact) that (in my opinion) runs contrary to the Division III premise of placing academics ahead of athletics.

Did anybody else catch that wild St. John Fisher - UofR game last night?  I listened to most of the second half, and it was highly entertaining, mostly because UofR kept getting itself in trouble, and coming up with exciting ways to get out of trouble, only to find itself in a new heap of trouble.  It was like "Indiana Jones and the Yellowjackets of Rochester."

The RPI coach has made it clear that he doesnt want to play tough non-conference games.  That doesn't neccesarliy hurt them for an at large spot though either.  If they had played a semi-tough team like Springfield and lost, it would do much more damage than winning those cupcake games they usually schedule.  I mean, they are really only doing what 90% of top d1 teams do in playing cupcake non-league games before the league season comes around.

And Im not sure about other d3 football programs, but there is plenty of time during the week to get in 50 hours of studying if you wanted.  I dont buy the academics/sports argument at the d3 level.

[redswarm81]

I agree that the WPI geographical issue makes sense--have they so stated in press releases or interviews?  It's a tad ironic that RPI travels to WPI's back yard to play Endicott.

The RPI coach has made it clear that he doesnt want to play tough non-conference games.

Okay, but has WPI said anything about their non-con scheduling strategy?

I agree with (Martini &) Rossi, to the extent that a 10 game schedule improves a team's attractiveness for at-large playoff selection.  In that regard, I have for many years encouraged the Originaleers to schedule a marquee non-conference game against a team such as Springfield (whose marquee value is currently lower than its book value) or St. John Fisher (whose current marquee value might be irrationally exuberant).

That doesn't neccesarily hurt them for an at large spot though either.  If they had played a semi-tough team like Springfield and lost, it would do much more damage than winning those cupcake games they usually schedule.  I mean, they are really only doing what 90% of top d1 teams do in playing cupcake non-league games before the league season comes around.

I think that's right--but I was more directly addressing FR's points re a 10th game, not non-conference cupcakery.  However, since the quality of opponent issue is unavoidable, I can see how it makes some sense to prepare for a conference schedule by playing non-con teams against which you have a good chance of winning, for several reasons:

• improve team confidence and morale,
• try out crazy plays--that might be necessary in desperate situations later--in situations where the game's outcome isn't necessarily on the line,
• make the necessary early season mistakes against a team that you can still beat despite errors.

Furthermore, add to that a potential 5 week playoff and a two week preseason, and you have guaranteed an academic impact in terms of reduced time available for academics (fact) that (in my opinion) runs contrary to the Division III premise of placing academics ahead of athletics.

And I'm not sure about other d3 football programs, but there is plenty of time during the week to get in 50 hours of studying if you wanted.  I don't buy the academics/sports argument at the d3 level.

I really don't want to rehash this argument, but the point isn't just the studying time available to the student, it's more an issue of the studying time taken away from the student by the school.  No school endorses 6 hours of XBox play per day, but all Division III football schools endorse 3 hours of football practice per day.

Did anybody else catch that wild St. John Fisher - UofR game last night?  I listened to most of the second half, and it was highly entertaining, mostly because UofR kept getting itself in trouble, and coming up with exciting ways to get out of trouble, only to find itself in a new heap of trouble.  It was like "Indiana Jones and the Yellowjackets of Doom."

[Jonny Utah]

I agree that the WPI geographical issue makes sense--have they so stated in press releases or interviews?  It's a tad ironic that RPI travels to WPI's back yard to play Endicott.

The RPI coach has made it clear that he doesnt want to play tough non-conference games.

Okay, but has WPI said anything about their non-con scheduling strategy?

I agree with (Martini &) Rossi, to the extent that a 10 game schedule improves a team's attractiveness for at-large playoff selection.  In that regard, I have for many years encouraged the Originaleers to schedule a marquee non-conference game against a team such as Springfield (whose marquee value is currently lower than its book value) or St. John Fisher (whose current marquee value might be irrationally exuberant).

That doesn't neccesarily hurt them for an at large spot though either.  If they had played a semi-tough team like Springfield and lost, it would do much more damage than winning those cupcake games they usually schedule.  I mean, they are really only doing what 90% of top d1 teams do in playing cupcake non-league games before the league season comes around.

I think that's right--but I was more directly addressing FR's points re a 10th game, not non-conference cupcakery.  However, since the quality of opponent issue is unavoidable, I can see how it makes some sense to prepare for a conference schedule by playing non-con teams against which you have a good chance of winning, for several reasons:

• improve team confidence and morale,
• try out crazy plays--that might be necessary in desperate situations later--in situations where the game's outcome isn't necessarily on the line,
• make the necessary early season mistakes against a team that you can still beat despite errors.

Furthermore, add to that a potential 5 week playoff and a two week preseason, and you have guaranteed an academic impact in terms of reduced time available for academics (fact) that (in my opinion) runs contrary to the Division III premise of placing academics ahead of athletics.

And I'm not sure about other d3 football programs, but there is plenty of time during the week to get in 50 hours of studying if you wanted.  I don't buy the academics/sports argument at the d3 level.

I really don't want to rehash this argument, but the point isn't just the studying time available to the student, it's more an issue of the studying time taken away from the student by the school.  No school endorses 6 hours of XBox play per day, but all Division III football schools endorse 3 hours of football practice per day.

Did anybody else catch that wild St. John Fisher - UofR game last night?  I listened to most of the second half, and it was highly entertaining, mostly because UofR kept getting itself in trouble, and coming up with exciting ways to get out of trouble, only to find itself in a new heap of trouble.  It was like "Indiana Jones and the Yellowjackets of Doom."

I think it was assumed that WPI plays those schools because of location and rivalry.

And I guess the point I was making was that if you are going to play a cupcake for that 10th game, then just playing 9 games would be the exact same thing.

I dont remember an academics discussion, but its the player that chooses to spend the 3 hours the day, not the school making them.  Not much different than working, clubs, etc....

[redswarm81]

I think it was assumed that WPI plays those schools because of location and rivalry.

I think so too.  That's why I asked if anyone knew of any official statements by WPI on the matter.

And I guess the point I was making was that if you are going to play a cupcake for that 10th game, then just playing 9 games would be the exact same thing.

In principle perhaps, but not in practice, because (I think) in-region winning percentage is a primary selection criterion.  Winning a 10th game against an East Region team will get you a higher winning percentage.

I don't remember an academics discussion, but its the player that chooses to spend the 3 hours the day, not the school making them.  Not much different than working, clubs, etc....

It's a fair point about the student-athlete's choice, but remember that it's a choice offered and endorsed by the school, that provides facilities and coaches--paid faculty advisors, if you will.

In my collegiate experience, clubs were nearly autonomous student activities, with no faculty or administration involvement. I say "nearly autonomous" because I believe that the administration could, if it wished, force a club to disband, if the club presented a clear and present danger to the school, as in the case of say, a local chapter of the KKK, or the Weatherman group, or al Q'aeda--the school would properly shut the club down.

There are some school-sponsored work opportunities yes, but I don't think any schools offer or endorse working three shifts a week at the Quickie Mart.

[Pat Coleman]

 Refresh my memory: do they take as much heat for scheduling early season patsies as the Originaleers do? 

No, but WPI isn't in traditionally in playoff contention either.

[dlippiel]

I don't know if this is where this conversation is going but I have always been so annoyed with RPI's weak early season schedule. Yet the more I have really been thinking about it I feel it is actually smart and does well for the engineers. Each year RPI starts off with 2 wins. In those wins comes some confidence, winning experience, and growth. They give themselves time to develop and gell as a team without having to face tons of adversity right off the bat. If you can do that and still recruit well from a weaker schedule then why not. The only time it may come to bite them is regarding an at-large bid when there is a comparison with others regarding strength of schedule. Yet it has seemed to work out well for the engineers overall. As far as WPI goes as a LL fan it is always nice to see them start with some success. I think that many of us know what is to come once LL interleague play begins. They won't be undefeated.

[muledaddy]

Dear Dutchmen,

Nice game...
the 2 lost  balls in the beginning were the unfortunate key to your missing the chance for the upset.

I think you will be all right the rest of the year.Good luck.Thanks for a nice visit to a nice town/school.

[Senor RedTackle]

I don't know if this is where this conversation is going but I have always been so annoyed with RPI's weak early season schedule. Yet the more I have really been thinking about it I feel it is actually smart and does well for the engineers. Each year RPI starts off with 2 wins. In those wins comes some confidence, winning experience, and growth. They give themselves time to develop and gell as a team without having to face tons of adversity right off the bat. If you can do that and still recruit well from a weaker schedule then why not. The only time it may come to bite them is regarding an at-large bid when there is a comparison with others regarding strength of schedule. Yet it has seemed to work out well for the engineers overall. As far as WPI goes as a LL fan it is always nice to see them start with some success. I think that many of us know what is to come once LL interleague play begins. They won't be undefeated.

Last RT checked, the "weak early season schedule" hasn't seemed to be much of a problem for RPI. RPI's mission is to win the LL outright and not count on an at large bid based upon non-conf scheduling. The LL has been a 2 team NCAA school the last few years...while it doesn't always work out this way, RT believes that the thinking is that if RPI drops 1 game in LL play, it's higher odds it's to Union or Hobart and over the last few years, it's been those 3 teams for the most part playing for 2 spots. Granted, UR has been the chic pick to make some noise but it hasn't happened. The only thing RT is annoyed about is that RPI is the team in the LL that seems to find a way to lose the URs and the SLUs of the world while Hobart or Union always seem to take care of business against the "rest" of the LL. Would a tougher regular season schedule change anything? Who knows....as a player, it was nice to pounce on some softie early in the season then go get RT's drink on in downtown Troy that night while he was still realtively fresh early in the season....

[lewdogg11]

I don't know if this is where this conversation is going but I have always been so annoyed with RPI's weak early season schedule. Yet the more I have really been thinking about it I feel it is actually smart and does well for the engineers. Each year RPI starts off with 2 wins. In those wins comes some confidence, winning experience, and growth. They give themselves time to develop and gell as a team without having to face tons of adversity right off the bat. If you can do that and still recruit well from a weaker schedule then why not. The only time it may come to bite them is regarding an at-large bid when there is a comparison with others regarding strength of schedule. Yet it has seemed to work out well for the engineers overall. As far as WPI goes as a LL fan it is always nice to see them start with some success. I think that many of us know what is to come once LL interleague play begins. They won't be undefeated.

Last RT checked, the "weak early season schedule" hasn't seemed to be much of a problem for RPI. RPI's mission is to win the LL outright and not count on an at large bid based upon non-conf scheduling. The LL has been a 2 team NCAA school the last few years...while it doesn't always work out this way, RT believes that the thinking is that if RPI drops 1 game in LL play, it's higher odds it's to Union or Hobart and over the last few years, it's been those 3 teams for the most part playing for 2 spots. Granted, UR has been the chic pick to make some noise but it hasn't happened. The only thing RT is annoyed about is that RPI is the team in the LL that seems to find a way to lose the URs and the SLUs of the world while Hobart or Union always seem to take care of business against the "rest" of the LL. Would a tougher regular season schedule change anything? Who knows....as a player, it was nice to pounce on some softie early in the season then go get RT's drink on in downtown Troy that night while he was still realtively fresh early in the season....

This thinking is great if your goal is to make the playoffs every year.  I think at some point, RPI's main goal WAS to make the playoffs which it should have been.  It should now be to win the national championship and compete at that next level.  The only way to do this is to schedule some higher quality opponents.  St. John Fisher appears to have the right formula.  Losing to Mount Union probably will benefit SJF more with an at-large bid(and the experience) than RPI pulling out a game late against Utica.  It's time for the vision to change to competing nationally, and not just being a consistently good east team. 

It's garbage.  YAY, we made the playoffs last year, then couldn't win because we weren't battle tested enough in tough games against tougher competition.  It's not just the players that could use the experience, it's the coaches as well.  I doubt Skip Holtz will make the same mistake he made yesterday.

[Senor RedTackle]

I don't know if this is where this conversation is going but I have always been so annoyed with RPI's weak early season schedule. Yet the more I have really been thinking about it I feel it is actually smart and does well for the engineers. Each year RPI starts off with 2 wins. In those wins comes some confidence, winning experience, and growth. They give themselves time to develop and gell as a team without having to face tons of adversity right off the bat. If you can do that and still recruit well from a weaker schedule then why not. The only time it may come to bite them is regarding an at-large bid when there is a comparison with others regarding strength of schedule. Yet it has seemed to work out well for the engineers overall. As far as WPI goes as a LL fan it is always nice to see them start with some success. I think that many of us know what is to come once LL interleague play begins. They won't be undefeated.

Last RT checked, the "weak early season schedule" hasn't seemed to be much of a problem for RPI. RPI's mission is to win the LL outright and not count on an at large bid based upon non-conf scheduling. The LL has been a 2 team NCAA school the last few years...while it doesn't always work out this way, RT believes that the thinking is that if RPI drops 1 game in LL play, it's higher odds it's to Union or Hobart and over the last few years, it's been those 3 teams for the most part playing for 2 spots. Granted, UR has been the chic pick to make some noise but it hasn't happened. The only thing RT is annoyed about is that RPI is the team in the LL that seems to find a way to lose the URs and the SLUs of the world while Hobart or Union always seem to take care of business against the "rest" of the LL. Would a tougher regular season schedule change anything? Who knows....as a player, it was nice to pounce on some softie early in the season then go get RT's drink on in downtown Troy that night while he was still realtively fresh early in the season....

This thinking is great if your goal is to make the playoffs every year.  I think at some point, RPI's main goal WAS to make the playoffs which it should have been.  It should now be to win the national championship and compete at that next level.  The only way to do this is to schedule some higher quality opponents.  St. John Fisher appears to have the right formula.  Losing to Mount Union probably will benefit SJF more with an at-large bid(and the experience) than RPI pulling out a game late against Utica.  It's time for the vision to change to competing nationally, and not just being a consistently good east team. 

It's garbage.  YAY, we made the playoffs last year, then couldn't win because we weren't battle tested enough in tough games against tougher competition.  It's not just the players that could use the experience, it's the coaches as well.  I doubt Skip Holtz will make the same mistake he made yesterday.

Maybe, maybe not. RPI lost to SJU in 2003 38-10 after being tied 10-10 at the half ..and SJU went on to beat Mount Union. Are you saying that if RPI had played a tougher team earlier in the season, they would've fared better in the final four? Didn't RPI get blanked by Hobart in the season finale that year 28-0? If your logic held true, then why aren't other OAC teams able to dislodge MUC from the top spot out there and win a title since they get to see them every year? Or how about a minnesota team other then SJU?...seems like the only other schools that RT can remember winning a national championship in the last 10 years (besides SJU or MU) was a team from Oregon (once), Wisconsin (once) and California (once). Maybe you should not always rip RPI ..just a thought. It comes down to recruits and reloading the pipeline. Slick coaching can only overcome so much of a disparity in talent. As much as I bleed RPI red, it's not seditious for RT to say that they're just deeper across the board in terms of talent at every position...they have a WR in the NFL for crisesakes. The new stadium at RPI can become a huge tool for pulling in new studs...so RPI does agree w/ LD in the sense that RPI should try to get a big name on the docket....this would help pimp the new digs.

And as far as Skip Holtz goes, what are you talking about? RT doesn't follow? They played 3 major conf teams in a row (VT, WVU, and NC State)...so what "won't he do again"?

[lewdogg11]

I don't know if this is where this conversation is going but I have always been so annoyed with RPI's weak early season schedule. Yet the more I have really been thinking about it I feel it is actually smart and does well for the engineers. Each year RPI starts off with 2 wins. In those wins comes some confidence, winning experience, and growth. They give themselves time to develop and gell as a team without having to face tons of adversity right off the bat. If you can do that and still recruit well from a weaker schedule then why not. The only time it may come to bite them is regarding an at-large bid when there is a comparison with others regarding strength of schedule. Yet it has seemed to work out well for the engineers overall. As far as WPI goes as a LL fan it is always nice to see them start with some success. I think that many of us know what is to come once LL interleague play begins. They won't be undefeated.

Last RT checked, the "weak early season schedule" hasn't seemed to be much of a problem for RPI. RPI's mission is to win the LL outright and not count on an at large bid based upon non-conf scheduling. The LL has been a 2 team NCAA school the last few years...while it doesn't always work out this way, RT believes that the thinking is that if RPI drops 1 game in LL play, it's higher odds it's to Union or Hobart and over the last few years, it's been those 3 teams for the most part playing for 2 spots. Granted, UR has been the chic pick to make some noise but it hasn't happened. The only thing RT is annoyed about is that RPI is the team in the LL that seems to find a way to lose the URs and the SLUs of the world while Hobart or Union always seem to take care of business against the "rest" of the LL. Would a tougher regular season schedule change anything? Who knows....as a player, it was nice to pounce on some softie early in the season then go get RT's drink on in downtown Troy that night while he was still realtively fresh early in the season....

This thinking is great if your goal is to make the playoffs every year.  I think at some point, RPI's main goal WAS to make the playoffs which it should have been.  It should now be to win the national championship and compete at that next level.  The only way to do this is to schedule some higher quality opponents.  St. John Fisher appears to have the right formula.  Losing to Mount Union probably will benefit SJF more with an at-large bid(and the experience) than RPI pulling out a game late against Utica.  It's time for the vision to change to competing nationally, and not just being a consistently good east team. 

It's garbage.  YAY, we made the playoffs last year, then couldn't win because we weren't battle tested enough in tough games against tougher competition.  It's not just the players that could use the experience, it's the coaches as well.  I doubt Skip Holtz will make the same mistake he made yesterday.

Maybe, maybe not. RPI lost to SJU in 2003 38-10 after being tied 10-10 at the half ..and SJU went on to beat Mount Union. If your logic held true, then why aren't other OAC teams able to dislodge MUC from the top spot out there and win a title since they get to see them every year? Or how about a minnesota team other then SJU?...seems like the only other schools that RT can remember winning a national championship in the last 10 years (besides SJU or MU) was a team from Oregon (once), Wisconsin (once) and California (once). Maybe you should not always rip RPI ..just a thought. It comes down to recruits and reloading the pipeline. Slick coaching can only overcome so much of a disparity in talent. The new stadium at RPI can become a huge tool for pulling in new studs...so RPI does agree w/ LD in the sense that RPI should try to get a big name on the docket to help pimp the new digs.

And as far as Skip Holtz goes, what are you talking about? RT doesn't follow? They played 3 major conf teams in a row (VT, WVU, and NC State)...so what "won't he do again"?

Im thinking Skip Holtz will kick the field goal next time...

[Senor RedTackle]

Im thinking Skip Holtz will kick the field goal next time...

oh...RT concurrs on that...wtf was he thinking?? Bye bye BCS

[lewdogg11]

And just for the record, I don't think RPI should schedule Mount Union.  But they SHOULD try to schedule someone in the middle tier.  A game that they can win, but a team that they will have to play well against to beat.  Like an NJAC team.  Even a team like Curry that has had some success.  Shoot, at this rate, i'd rather see Coast Guard and the shot glass trophy game back. 

[Jonny Utah]

You also have to put the whole d3 thing in perspective too.

I mean, as your typical Massachusetts high school kid, I never heard of Cortland, SJF, Buff St, Brockport, Alfred, Mansfield, Mercyhurst or Montclair. 

Are recruits really going to know the difference between SJF and Utica? (the ones from MA anyway)

[lewdogg11]

You also have to put the whole d3 thing in perspective too.

I mean, as your typical Massachusetts high school kid, I never heard of Cortland, SJF, Buff St, Brockport, Alfred, Mansfield, Mercyhurst or Montclair. 

Are recruits really going to know the difference between SJF and Utica? (the ones from MA anyway)

I think they are getting the recruits.  I think they have the talent they need to be that good.