FB: Liberty League

[lewdogg11]

We wouldn't be having thsi conversation if RPI just kicked the goddamn field goal against TCNJ last year.  I'm gonna go puke again.

[Senor RedTackle]

We wouldn't be having thsi conversation if RPI just kicked the goddamn field goal against TCNJ last year.  I'm gonna go puke again.

"I know this much is true..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYb83KM4at4

['gro]

First off, I really though dem spicy boyz was going to take off... no such luck so far, how about a transistion phase of 'Curry aka DSB'

Secondly, Lewdogg I had to steal this from you...

...if RPI is going to play the weakest of the weak then they are not going to get any poll love. Plain and simple.

Uh-huhuhuhuhuh, huhuhuhuhuhuh you said "poll love"
yeah-yeah-heheheheheheheheh

the pic is the best part!

[stimulator]

So that proves 'Dem Spicy Boyz' were better than Hartwick last year.  Ok, i'll give em that.  But isn't a poll a way to measure who you think is better?  This means a whole bunch of pollsters actually think Curry is better than RPI and Hobart.  Are they just going off of last year's playoff results or is there more to it?

I mean, look at the NEFC board.  Those guys don't even know how to post.  Here is my version of an NEFC post.

*******************************************************************************************
West Beverly over Beverly 27-7 12 people there no one will watch it 12-9 3 OT
Dracut over Lowell 21-0 yes this was an actual score from last week 34-16 Lamp
Endicott lost to Salve Regina in the rain 20-17 but a girl streaked the field naked 23-18
Gro's fantasy team over U89's wet fantasy 127-0 U89 likes to eat terds for breakfast
Jonny Utah isn't really Keanu Reaves 11-8 but he has a poster of Gary Busey naked
No one usually reads this far 45-6 loud noises 98-7 Miss Lippy's car is green
The Goonies isn't fully appreciated by the 67-65 youth of today 44-43 Bill likes to drink soda
One Time I saw Framingham St 25-22 Regulator pee in Gro's closet 19-16

LD Post of the year...

Re: Curry not sure of how an RPI/Curry matchup would play put opver 20 games... guess is somewhere between 15-5 and 13-7 in RPI's favor.  Curry could certainly win any number of games but is probably not as deep as the Engineers.

Curry is a bit victimzed by the lack of strength of their league.  When their major contenders yearly are Plymouth State or U Mass Dartmouth and the rest of the league is a gimmie, they look like what they are .... a good team looking better based on only 2 tests a year.

Sounds a bit like the LL 'cept there are really 3 games in the LL that are tests for the Hobart's, Union's, and  Rochester's and RPI's of the LL.   Orvertainly 4-5 if you go with the harder non-conf games ala Hobart, Union and  Rochester. 

Will have to see if Susq., MM, WPI, or St. Law. can bust someone's bubble this year.  If WPI can stop someone this year they may have a chance.

[labart96]

First off, I really though dem spicy boyz was going to take off... no such luck so far, how about a transistion phase of 'Curry aka DSB'

Secondly, Lewdogg I had to steal this from you...

...if RPI is going to play the weakest of the weak then they are not going to get any poll love. Plain and simple.

Uh-huhuhuhuhuh, huhuhuhuhuhuh you said "poll love"
yeah-yeah-heheheheheheheheh

the pic is the best part!

you said "poll love" - BOL!!!!

heh heh heh heh

[labart96]

Counselor Rossi -

k+ on your points (esp re: Hobart).  Still, although Hobart OOC games are certainty "better" than some teams in the LL and E8, both Dickinson and CMU - albeit "quality programs" appear to be somewhat down this year (both are 2-2 so far).

Still agree with your general points though......

[dlippiel]

I think the Curry argument (although I always participate) just beats a dead horse!

Rare archival footage ...RPI "over" Curry c1886

I like this!

[Pat Coleman]

I look at it more as Curry being 4 teams away from being in the Top 25 -- so if 4 teams within 7-10 spots of them fell or underperformed, they would be there...

Yet the first four weeks proves that this is absolutely not true.

See, the Top 25 isn't some set of standings where teams automatically get promoted when someone else falls.

[Pat Coleman]

RPI would probably beat Curry by 3 TDs if they played on a neutral field tomorrow.

Then they should prove it and play them. But if RPI is going to play the weakest of the weak then they are not going to get any poll love. Plain and simple.

If you had listened to "ITH" on Sun night, you would've heard an interesting observation by WPI Coach Ed Zaloom talking about his first coaching clinic he ever went to where one of the D1 coaches giving a talk had said the three keys to winning are "schedule, schedule, and schedule".

Great in Division I. Completely irrelevant to Division III, however.

There's no multi-million dollar paydays to bring weak sisters in. There's no rush to get to 6 wins to be bowl-eligible. There's no push to move games to Thursday nights to get that ESPN exposure. There's no loading the team on a plane to go play all the way across the country twice a year.

So I am so sorry that I chose to honor my family obligation instead of listening to ITH, but I don't think I missed anything in that particular line of conversation.

[dlippiel]

RPI would probably beat Curry by 3 TDs if they played on a neutral field tomorrow.

Then they should prove it and play them. But if RPI is going to play the weakest of the weak then they are not going to get any poll love. Plain and simple.

If you had listened to "ITH" on Sun night, you would've heard an interesting observation by WPI Coach Ed Zaloom talking about his first coaching clinic he ever went to where one of the D1 coaches giving a talk had said the three keys to winning are "schedule, schedule, and schedule".

RPI is pretty comfortable with thier LL schedule as a good test for them over the course of the long season....and RT doesn't have a problem with how they choose to schedule outside of conference. D1 programs have been doing that for years...look at Oklahoma or LSU's early OOC schedules. Unfortunately, D3 programs don't run their business based upon what the fans or "experts" would like to see to help them make their polling easier since the "experts" don't have the TV coverage to go by like in D-I.

Anyone who knows football in the northeast knows that RPI or Hobart are much deeper from top to bottom then a Curry and that the top LL teams would likely thump Curry 19 out of 20 times played. As much as anyone wants to bash RPI's OOC schedule, it doesn't hide the fact that Curry's regular season schedule is nowhere near the test of the LL schedule. RT thinks that pollsters who insist on ranking Curry ahead of the top LL teams lose credibility because it doesn't show an objective analysis of rosters, conf SOS, etc. Great...they went to the NCAAs and have piled up an impressive record over the last few seasons (against who, RT may add??)...they even beat Hartwick! Wow. Didn't Hartwick let Utica put on an offensive clinic in the regular season against them last year??
In any event, these are fun debates and don't cause RT much stress because the fact is that the NEFC gets an AQ, which Curry seems to have the lock on so LL teams have to focus on winning their own conference or battling for an at large as the 2nd best team in the LL....knowing that the 2nd best team in NEFC isn't going to get an at large. It is what it is.

I listened to Ed (who by the way seems like a realy cool oldschool type football guy) and the difference is WPI is not a relaitic NCAA contender every season. I think if WPI made the NCAAS it would be huge! When RPI fails to make the NCAAs or loses to TCNJ like last year (a team they were clearly better than) it is a let down. In RPI's position as a periennial LL favorite and NCAA team to grow, to get that early respect from the east, from the pollsters, and on a national level they SHOULD play at least one decent OOC game aside from either Utica or Endicott.

[Frank Rossi]

Counselor Rossi -

k+ on your points (esp re: Hobart).  Still, although Hobart OOC games are certainty "better" than some teams in the LL and E8, both Dickinson and CMU - albeit "quality programs" appear to be somewhat down this year (both are 2-2 so far).

Still agree with your general points though......

TGP - Remember one thing.  One loss for both Dickinson and CMU come from Hobart.  So, to call those teams "down" this year somewhat puts you into a conundrum argument that is tough to get out of this early in the season.  That is why I've been careful to evaluate scores, trends and overall strength of schedule when I look at Curry, Hobart and RPI so far -- and come out with the answer that RPI's schedule has done it no favors, that Curry's schedule has done it less favors and should begin to outweigh a playoff win vs. Hartwick and that Hobart has been given the shaft so far by pollsters since the schedule seems strong and the play has been decent by Hobart.

Senor RT made a point earlier about Curry and the NEFC receiving the auto-bid.  While I agree with Senor RT that this is how things normally play out, there's a problem as the season plays itself out.  Follow me on this one:

Curry goes 10-0 in the NEFC regular season;
Curry moves to #15 or better on the D3Football.com Top 25 Poll (possible as teams begin to lose in the Top 25;
Curry loses the NEFC Championship vs. a team that is 9-1/8-1 from the other division; and
Curry finishes its season at 10-1 and ranked #24 or 25 and without the auto-bid.

Last year, a scenario like this nearly played out, although I don't think Curry ever hit #15 in the poll.  This year, with a head start in the poll, Curry has the capability to make such a lofty jump as things play out.  My fear, and the reason why I harp on this point, is that the NEFC does not deserve a second slot, but the Committee would be placed in an awkward position if Curry was receiving national attention at 10-1 and didn't get a trip.  So, while the auto-bid for the NEFC generally removes the concern about too much love being given to an NEFC team, I'm not so sure that's the case this year if the above scenarios played out -- and the likelihood isn't that far-fetched, I don't think.

- Frank

[Edit:  The Guru is throwing lightning bolts at me, so let me be specific -- Curry hit #23 after the season concluded, having finished 11-1, although I note to Guru that had a poll come out after the Hartwick win, they may have been higher.  My point is still that there seems to be a head start this year for Curry in the rankings, and dewcrew, I fear, isn't the only person in the world that won't shift teams down until a loss by said team, regardless of opponents.  Now, I must dodge the further bolts...Hasta...]

[Pat Coleman]

For the record, Curry's been ranked in the Top 25 one time -- No. 23 last year after a playoff win, finishing 11-1.

So no, Curry was never even CLOSE to 15.

Completely undeserving teams don't drift up in our poll. That's what the AFCA poll is for.

[labart96]

RPI would probably beat Curry by 3 TDs if they played on a neutral field tomorrow.

Then they should prove it and play them. But if RPI is going to play the weakest of the weak then they are not going to get any poll love. Plain and simple.

If you had listened to "ITH" on Sun night, you would've heard an interesting observation by WPI Coach Ed Zaloom talking about his first coaching clinic he ever went to where one of the D1 coaches giving a talk had said the three keys to winning are "schedule, schedule, and schedule".

Great in Division I. Completely irrelevant to Division III, however.

There's no multi-million dollar paydays to bring weak sisters in. There's no rush to get to 6 wins to be bowl-eligible. There's no push to move games to Thursday nights to get that ESPN exposure. There's no loading the team on a plane to go play all the way across the country twice a year.

So I am so sorry that I chose to honor my family obligation instead of listening to ITH, but I don't think I missed anything in that particular line of conversation.

TGP thinks Pat maybe missing the point here.  This isn't about being bowl eligible or having any connection to D1 whatsoever.

The context in which the WPI coach was discussing this was that the best way to build a D3 program is through your schedule.  Playing the best teams you can (both locally to build a reputation with the local high schools/coaches for recruiting purposes, as well as across the region).

Take Hobart for instance.

Perennial doormat until '92 when the late Coach Max got our AD to start scheduling tougher OOC games like Dickinson.  At the time DC was a D3 powerhouse (much like Union and IC in the early 90s).  Although Hobart took some initial lumps, the school's commitment to playing both a strong local and ooc schedule helped build the program's rep and attracted better players/students to the school.

Hobart's alignment with the UCAA in the late 90s then the LL in the 00's helped Hobart again in that it gave the program a basis to qualify for the NCAAs (a feat they barely missed in 93 after an upset of #2 nationally ranked Buff St - another OOC "playing the best available" etc - then losing to RPI - damn you RT).

So, TGP thinks WPI's strategy is a sound one.  They are working on building their program but a combo of local presence as well as playing more established programs (Union, RPI, etc).

This has nothing to do with D1 comparison IMO.

[labart96]

Counselor Rossi -

k+ on your points (esp re: Hobart).  Still, although Hobart OOC games are certainty "better" than some teams in the LL and E8, both Dickinson and CMU - albeit "quality programs" appear to be somewhat down this year (both are 2-2 so far).

Still agree with your general points though......

TGP - Remember one thing.  One loss for both Dickinson and CMU come from Hobart.  So, to call those teams "down" this year somewhat puts you into a conundrum argument that is tough to get out of this early in the season.  That is why I've been careful to evaluate scores, trends and overall strength of schedule when I look at Curry, Hobart and RPI so far -- and come out with the answer that RPI's schedule has done it no favors, that Curry's schedule has done it less favors and should begin to outweigh a playoff win vs. Hartwick and that Hobart has been given the shaft so far by pollsters since the schedule seems strong and the play has been decent by Hobart.

Senor RT made a point earlier about Curry and the NEFC receiving the auto-bid.  While I agree with Senor RT that this is how things normally play out, there's a problem as the season plays itself out.  Follow me on this one:

Curry goes 10-0 in the NEFC regular season;
Curry moves to #15 or better on the D3Football.com Top 25 Poll (possible as teams begin to lose in the Top 25;
Curry loses the NEFC Championship vs. a team that is 9-1/8-1 from the other division; and
Curry finishes its season at 10-1 and ranked #24 or 25 and without the auto-bid.

Last year, a scenario like this nearly played out, although I don't think Curry ever hit #15 in the poll.  This year, with a head start in the poll, Curry has the capability to make such a lofty jump as things play out.  My fear, and the reason why I harp on this point, is that the NEFC does not deserve a second slot, but the Committee would be placed in an awkward position if Curry was receiving national attention at 10-1 and didn't get a trip.  So, while the auto-bid for the NEFC generally removes the concern about too much love being given to an NEFC team, I'm not so sure that's the case this year if the above scenarios played out -- and the likelihood isn't that far-fetched, I don't think.

- Frank

Good points.  TGP tries not to be too biased in Hobart discussions - if anything TGP takes the "glass half empty" stance.

Pat - TGP thinks that Frank's 15 comment is a typo - he meant #25, not #15.

[Pat Coleman]

So, TGP thinks WPI's strategy is a sound one.  They are working on building their program but a combo of local presence as well as playing more established programs (Union, RPI, etc).

It may be a sound strategy for WPI. RT is trying to use that to justify RPI's schedule, though, and WPI and RPI are not on the same level right now.