FB: Liberty League

[union89]

The story U89 has heard is that ALL varsity sports took a hit at Union scaling back 1 or 2 games.  Admin. feels that it would have been unfair to take games from some teams, but not others.....hense, everyone lost a little in order to get the athletic budget more in line......

Again, though, this same argument gets tossed around like a cheap suit all the time -- it's been frequently thrown in my face that other sports at Union take issue with the idea that Football receives the radio coverage that it does on a commercial station with (people who are described by others as being somewhat) professional commentators.  Well, guess what -- it's my money in this case, and I'll direct that money to where I'd like to.  If the school doesn't want it based on such lame reasoning (i.e., cutting off your nose to spite your face), then they get zero at the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned.  Granted, this is my last year probably doing this based on my experiences after three weeks of trying to help out for the five year -- and I'm not sure where I'll direct my money for Union after this year, if I choose to at all.

In the same light, if there is no negative/detrimental effect of scheduling a tenth game that could: (a) help exposure of the Union Football program and thus help recruiting in all sports through Union's increased exposure; and (b) give Union a greater chance of achieving NCAA spots every year in Football, which is another revenue-generating experience (or at least is on paper), then that argument by other teams HOLDS NO WATER.  It's a cop-out by a weak leader that would be swayed by such complaints instead of putting together statistics that counter those arguments for all concerned.

- Frank

What 'weak leader' are you talking about?  You seem to dance around a lot of subjects without actually getting to your 'point'.  If your going to throw a rock.....throw it.

[Pat Coleman]

Personally, I wouldn't care who they played if they would just stop with the one and dones.

And if they didn't go one and out last year, they'd probably be getting more benefit of the doubt in the poll right now. Of course, it would still be nice if they returned more than one starting offensive lineman, but they'd have a higher baseline to start from.

[Frank Rossi]

The story U89 has heard is that ALL varsity sports took a hit at Union scaling back 1 or 2 games.  Admin. feels that it would have been unfair to take games from some teams, but not others.....hense, everyone lost a little in order to get the athletic budget more in line......

Again, though, this same argument gets tossed around like a cheap suit all the time -- it's been frequently thrown in my face that other sports at Union take issue with the idea that Football receives the radio coverage that it does on a commercial station with (people who are described by others as being somewhat) professional commentators.  Well, guess what -- it's my money in this case, and I'll direct that money to where I'd like to.  If the school doesn't want it based on such lame reasoning (i.e., cutting off your nose to spite your face), then they get zero at the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned.  Granted, this is my last year probably doing this based on my experiences after three weeks of trying to help out for the five year -- and I'm not sure where I'll direct my money for Union after this year, if I choose to at all.

In the same light, if there is no negative/detrimental effect of scheduling a tenth game that could: (a) help exposure of the Union Football program and thus help recruiting in all sports through Union's increased exposure; and (b) give Union a greater chance of achieving NCAA spots every year in Football, which is another revenue-generating experience (or at least is on paper), then that argument by other teams HOLDS NO WATER.  It's a cop-out by a weak leader that would be swayed by such complaints instead of putting together statistics that counter those arguments for all concerned.

- Frank

What 'weak leader' are you talking about?  You seem to dance around a lot of subjects without actually getting to your 'point'.  If your going to throw a rock.....throw it.

Whatever leader might be making such a point at any school.

[lewdogg11]

I didn't mean to put Curry down.  I don't think much of the NEFC but Curry is the class of it by leaps and bounds and they deserve votes.  I think it's crazy that a 3-0 Curry has more votes combined than a 3-0 RPI and 3-0 Hobart.  Make statements about their schedules all you want, Curry plays that schedule ALL year, every year.  

It all circles back to last year's playoff results.  It's amazing to see that if they are using historical data, how shortsighted they are, just to go to the last game that a team WON(vs. Hartwick), rather than them losing to Fisher 38-7.  It comes down to the fact that a lot of voters don't really analyze teams and take their 'votes' THAT seriosuly outside of the top 10 or 15, but are comfortable in their voting scheme for 15-25 based soleley on last years results(early on) with an unwillingness to move teams until they lose.  

[union89]

The story U89 has heard is that ALL varsity sports took a hit at Union scaling back 1 or 2 games.  Admin. feels that it would have been unfair to take games from some teams, but not others.....hense, everyone lost a little in order to get the athletic budget more in line......

Again, though, this same argument gets tossed around like a cheap suit all the time -- it's been frequently thrown in my face that other sports at Union take issue with the idea that Football receives the radio coverage that it does on a commercial station with (people who are described by others as being somewhat) professional commentators.  Well, guess what -- it's my money in this case, and I'll direct that money to where I'd like to.  If the school doesn't want it based on such lame reasoning (i.e., cutting off your nose to spite your face), then they get zero at the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned.  Granted, this is my last year probably doing this based on my experiences after three weeks of trying to help out for the five year -- and I'm not sure where I'll direct my money for Union after this year, if I choose to at all.

In the same light, if there is no negative/detrimental effect of scheduling a tenth game that could: (a) help exposure of the Union Football program and thus help recruiting in all sports through Union's increased exposure; and (b) give Union a greater chance of achieving NCAA spots every year in Football, which is another revenue-generating experience (or at least is on paper), then that argument by other teams HOLDS NO WATER.  It's a cop-out by a weak leader that would be swayed by such complaints instead of putting together statistics that counter those arguments for all concerned.

- Frank

What 'weak leader' are you talking about?  You seem to dance around a lot of subjects without actually getting to your 'point'.  If your going to throw a rock.....throw it.

Whatever leader might be making such a point at any school.

Cue the music.....

[Frank Rossi]

Cue the music.....

I would, but Cyndi Lauper makes me kinda throw up in my mouth.


Edit:  U89, rumor has it that you used to wear these around the Union campus during your days there:

[labart96]

Lively discussion today boys, but TGP thinks we've reached the limit:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153287?source=SEO_SSP_Y&intcmp=SEO_SSP_Y&extcmp=SEO_SSP_Y

[Frank Rossi]

Touching story by the SI turncoat:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3619502

[labart96]

Touching story by the SI turncoat:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3619502

When did the LLPP become the MIAC board

[Frank Rossi]

Touching story by the SI turncoat:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3619502

When did the LLPP become the MIAC board

Leg warmers and warming stories... that's how we roll.

[union89]

Cue the music.....

I would, but Cyndi Lauper makes me kinda throw up in my mouth.


Edit:  U89, rumor has it that you used to wear these around the Union campus during your days there:

Not me bro....U89 has ballz to call people out ....they don't fit in the a leotard........

You could probably squeeze into those with the extra groin room....

[Jonny Utah]

I think we are putting SOS on too high a level.  There are many teams (Mount Union included) that do not have the #1 SOS in the country and still end up doing ok.

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program.  You need a coach who knows how to actually coach the game and outcoach the other team.
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but a good coach cant win with bad players, and a bad coach cant win with good players.  You need both.  You have to sell kids on the school and program.  You might even have to lie to them.

Level 2
1) Type of school-- You arent going to get enough athletes at a school like MIT or Army/Navy, and you might not get the students at the Mt. Ida/Framingham St. to do well.  The better academic schools will have better programs and can attract better student/athletes at the d3 level.
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc.  This further attracts the d3 football player.

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, and is something that will then attract student/athletes regardless of the first 2 levels sometimes (See Notre Dame, Duke Basketball etc)
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas (SJF, Mt. Union, Rowan).  It also may hurt those other schools on the fringe (St. Lawrence, Bates)

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles that may factor into a kids decision to go to a school.  (money, academics, girls, whatever)

Just JUs two cents again.......

Jonny (and RT, who basically wrote on the same topic earlier) -

I agree with you both in what you have said - and I really did read every word as they were both very thought-provoking and mature comments from two guys that I know have really grown up over the last few years in terms of their insights about how all this stuff works (re: playoffs, scheduling and the such).  And trust me, I used to be pretty immature about this stuff and feel like my arguments these days are much tighter and informed than they used to be.

That being said, the one thing I feel is missing from both of your perspectives is this issue:  how do you impress, as Unionfan put it, the group of "monkeys throwing darts" at the end of the season in case you trip up in your league and lose the AQ?  It's one thing to know that you can beat a team in your own mind -- it's another to convey that feeling/knowledge to some group that only gets snippets of your season on November 15th-16th, 2008, to pick the at-large teams.  I don't think it's their goal to place a team in the playoffs that they feel might be a one-and-done scenario, even though 16 teams will, in fact, be one-and-done each year.  

Now that Curry has won once, and based on some of the carry-over attention they have received, there may be a belief in Indianapolois that Curry is no longer a one-and-done threat to the NCAA when selected.  As LD pointed out, since RPI has failed to advance three times out of four years, there might NOT be that same feeling about RPI.  So, how do you differentiate your team to give the NCAA a feeling of probable success for your team, assuming you need that insurance policy.  

Listen, you want your team to roll the dice on going undefeated in the league every year (going for broke if you lose just once in league), then so be it.  WPI's coach (Ed Zaloom) explained eloquently why his team doesn't schedule in such a way (the LL is his team's challenge as WPI just lacks the depth right now to go 9-10 games against teams that pose major threats every week -- and his team needs local media coverage for local recruiting, at least partially explaining the OOC scheduling WPI does).  However, as I always say, if all eight teams of the LL do this, then the LL will NEVER get two at-large bids.  So, this is why scheduling does matter for teams that want to make the playoffs EVERY year but aren't named MUC or U-Dub-Dub.  And this is the point that I think LD supports the most in his own post about RPI - RPI feels it belongs in the Playoffs every year, but its resume isn't such that it is a given that they would make it at 8-1 (6-1 LL) every year.  And I think Pat's gist of things is that Curry now has slightly changed the balance of power with its win vs. Hartwick last year, even if we all can't figure out why that game is being held out as such a tremendous credit to Curry beyond them breaking the NEFC "glass ceiling."

There needs to be some balance of the things that Jonny put forth, yes -- but those things can't easily be quantified come 11/15-11/16 in a conference call.  Ultimately, SoS will get that job done, even though I think the statistical approach the NCAA switched to last year is an analytical mess based on my understanding of college statistics (which the BCS/Bowl Alliance agreed with a decade ago when they dumped the same approach).  But that's another argument for another day.

That's just my two cents (well, keep the change).

- Frank

Frank you are 100% right about the SOS and an at large bid if you win those out of conference games.  I never disagreed with that.  In fact, last year if I remember correctly I was predecting that if Ithaca won the rest of its games they would get an at large bid.  Basically 100% of the people on here disagreed with me including you I think.

And Pat C and I used to go back and forth about whether or not playing d2 teams had any bearing on rankings.  I said they did, and he said they didnt.  But I still think I was right in the end.

But you have to take in account the whole picture here.  Lets say RPI goes out and schedules Wisconsin Whitewater next year.  If they beat them, they are probably not going to lose to Hobart, Union or anyone else they play anyway, and they would have gone 10-0 regardless.  If they lose to them, then who knows.  Now you might have a 2-3 loss at large hopefull rather than the 1-2 loss at large hopeufll if they played the Endicotts and Uticas.  And maybe that one year the 1 loss RPI gets that at large bid despite the SOS.

[Jonny Utah]

[Frank Rossi]

I think we are putting SOS on too high a level.  There are many teams (Mount Union included) that do not have the #1 SOS in the country and still end up doing ok.

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program.  You need a coach who knows how to actually coach the game and outcoach the other team.
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but a good coach cant win with bad players, and a bad coach cant win with good players.  You need both.  You have to sell kids on the school and program.  You might even have to lie to them.

Level 2
1) Type of school-- You arent going to get enough athletes at a school like MIT or Army/Navy, and you might not get the students at the Mt. Ida/Framingham St. to do well.  The better academic schools will have better programs and can attract better student/athletes at the d3 level.
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc.  This further attracts the d3 football player.

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, and is something that will then attract student/athletes regardless of the first 2 levels sometimes (See Notre Dame, Duke Basketball etc)
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas (SJF, Mt. Union, Rowan).  It also may hurt those other schools on the fringe (St. Lawrence, Bates)

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles that may factor into a kids decision to go to a school.  (money, academics, girls, whatever)

Just JUs two cents again.......

Jonny (and RT, who basically wrote on the same topic earlier) -

I agree with you both in what you have said - and I really did read every word as they were both very thought-provoking and mature comments from two guys that I know have really grown up over the last few years in terms of their insights about how all this stuff works (re: playoffs, scheduling and the such).  And trust me, I used to be pretty immature about this stuff and feel like my arguments these days are much tighter and informed than they used to be.

That being said, the one thing I feel is missing from both of your perspectives is this issue:  how do you impress, as Unionfan put it, the group of "monkeys throwing darts" at the end of the season in case you trip up in your league and lose the AQ?  It's one thing to know that you can beat a team in your own mind -- it's another to convey that feeling/knowledge to some group that only gets snippets of your season on November 15th-16th, 2008, to pick the at-large teams.  I don't think it's their goal to place a team in the playoffs that they feel might be a one-and-done scenario, even though 16 teams will, in fact, be one-and-done each year.  

Now that Curry has won once, and based on some of the carry-over attention they have received, there may be a belief in Indianapolois that Curry is no longer a one-and-done threat to the NCAA when selected.  As LD pointed out, since RPI has failed to advance three times out of four years, there might NOT be that same feeling about RPI.  So, how do you differentiate your team to give the NCAA a feeling of probable success for your team, assuming you need that insurance policy.  

Listen, you want your team to roll the dice on going undefeated in the league every year (going for broke if you lose just once in league), then so be it.  WPI's coach (Ed Zaloom) explained eloquently why his team doesn't schedule in such a way (the LL is his team's challenge as WPI just lacks the depth right now to go 9-10 games against teams that pose major threats every week -- and his team needs local media coverage for local recruiting, at least partially explaining the OOC scheduling WPI does).  However, as I always say, if all eight teams of the LL do this, then the LL will NEVER get two at-large bids.  So, this is why scheduling does matter for teams that want to make the playoffs EVERY year but aren't named MUC or U-Dub-Dub.  And this is the point that I think LD supports the most in his own post about RPI - RPI feels it belongs in the Playoffs every year, but its resume isn't such that it is a given that they would make it at 8-1 (6-1 LL) every year.  And I think Pat's gist of things is that Curry now has slightly changed the balance of power with its win vs. Hartwick last year, even if we all can't figure out why that game is being held out as such a tremendous credit to Curry beyond them breaking the NEFC "glass ceiling."

There needs to be some balance of the things that Jonny put forth, yes -- but those things can't easily be quantified come 11/15-11/16 in a conference call.  Ultimately, SoS will get that job done, even though I think the statistical approach the NCAA switched to last year is an analytical mess based on my understanding of college statistics (which the BCS/Bowl Alliance agreed with a decade ago when they dumped the same approach).  But that's another argument for another day.

That's just my two cents (well, keep the change).

- Frank

Frank you are 100% right about the SOS and an at large bid if you win those out of conference games.  I never disagreed with that.  In fact, last year if I remember correctly I was predecting that if Ithaca won the rest of its games they would get an at large bid.  Basically 100% of the people on here disagreed with me including you I think.

And Pat C and I used to go back and forth about whether or not playing d2 teams had any bearing on rankings.  I said they did, and he said they didnt.  But I still think I was right in the end.

But you have to take in account the whole picture here.  Lets say RPI goes out and schedules Wisconsin Whitewater next year.  If they beat them, they are probably not going to lose to Hobart, Union or anyone else they play anyway, and they would have gone 10-0 regardless.  If they lose to them, then who knows.  Now you might have a 2-3 loss at large hopefull rather than the 1-2 loss at large hopeufll if they played the Endicotts and Uticas.  And maybe that one year the 1 loss RPI gets that at large bid despite the SOS.

Jonny -

The game against U-Dub-Dub can't hurt them... It's out of region.  In fact, it can only help them unless the Committee finds a tie after searching through 3 or 4 other criteria first -- and even then, it probably wouldn't hurt them.

[Jonny Utah]

I think we are putting SOS on too high a level.  There are many teams (Mount Union included) that do not have the #1 SOS in the country and still end up doing ok.

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program.  You need a coach who knows how to actually coach the game and outcoach the other team.
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but a good coach cant win with bad players, and a bad coach cant win with good players.  You need both.  You have to sell kids on the school and program.  You might even have to lie to them.

Level 2
1) Type of school-- You arent going to get enough athletes at a school like MIT or Army/Navy, and you might not get the students at the Mt. Ida/Framingham St. to do well.  The better academic schools will have better programs and can attract better student/athletes at the d3 level.
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc.  This further attracts the d3 football player.

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, and is something that will then attract student/athletes regardless of the first 2 levels sometimes (See Notre Dame, Duke Basketball etc)
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas (SJF, Mt. Union, Rowan).  It also may hurt those other schools on the fringe (St. Lawrence, Bates)

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles that may factor into a kids decision to go to a school.  (money, academics, girls, whatever)

Just JUs two cents again.......

Jonny (and RT, who basically wrote on the same topic earlier) -

I agree with you both in what you have said - and I really did read every word as they were both very thought-provoking and mature comments from two guys that I know have really grown up over the last few years in terms of their insights about how all this stuff works (re: playoffs, scheduling and the such).  And trust me, I used to be pretty immature about this stuff and feel like my arguments these days are much tighter and informed than they used to be.

That being said, the one thing I feel is missing from both of your perspectives is this issue:  how do you impress, as Unionfan put it, the group of "monkeys throwing darts" at the end of the season in case you trip up in your league and lose the AQ?  It's one thing to know that you can beat a team in your own mind -- it's another to convey that feeling/knowledge to some group that only gets snippets of your season on November 15th-16th, 2008, to pick the at-large teams.  I don't think it's their goal to place a team in the playoffs that they feel might be a one-and-done scenario, even though 16 teams will, in fact, be one-and-done each year.  

Now that Curry has won once, and based on some of the carry-over attention they have received, there may be a belief in Indianapolois that Curry is no longer a one-and-done threat to the NCAA when selected.  As LD pointed out, since RPI has failed to advance three times out of four years, there might NOT be that same feeling about RPI.  So, how do you differentiate your team to give the NCAA a feeling of probable success for your team, assuming you need that insurance policy.  

Listen, you want your team to roll the dice on going undefeated in the league every year (going for broke if you lose just once in league), then so be it.  WPI's coach (Ed Zaloom) explained eloquently why his team doesn't schedule in such a way (the LL is his team's challenge as WPI just lacks the depth right now to go 9-10 games against teams that pose major threats every week -- and his team needs local media coverage for local recruiting, at least partially explaining the OOC scheduling WPI does).  However, as I always say, if all eight teams of the LL do this, then the LL will NEVER get two at-large bids.  So, this is why scheduling does matter for teams that want to make the playoffs EVERY year but aren't named MUC or U-Dub-Dub.  And this is the point that I think LD supports the most in his own post about RPI - RPI feels it belongs in the Playoffs every year, but its resume isn't such that it is a given that they would make it at 8-1 (6-1 LL) every year.  And I think Pat's gist of things is that Curry now has slightly changed the balance of power with its win vs. Hartwick last year, even if we all can't figure out why that game is being held out as such a tremendous credit to Curry beyond them breaking the NEFC "glass ceiling."

There needs to be some balance of the things that Jonny put forth, yes -- but those things can't easily be quantified come 11/15-11/16 in a conference call.  Ultimately, SoS will get that job done, even though I think the statistical approach the NCAA switched to last year is an analytical mess based on my understanding of college statistics (which the BCS/Bowl Alliance agreed with a decade ago when they dumped the same approach).  But that's another argument for another day.

That's just my two cents (well, keep the change).

- Frank

Frank you are 100% right about the SOS and an at large bid if you win those out of conference games.  I never disagreed with that.  In fact, last year if I remember correctly I was predecting that if Ithaca won the rest of its games they would get an at large bid.  Basically 100% of the people on here disagreed with me including you I think.

And Pat C and I used to go back and forth about whether or not playing d2 teams had any bearing on rankings.  I said they did, and he said they didnt.  But I still think I was right in the end.

But you have to take in account the whole picture here.  Lets say RPI goes out and schedules Wisconsin Whitewater next year.  If they beat them, they are probably not going to lose to Hobart, Union or anyone else they play anyway, and they would have gone 10-0 regardless.  If they lose to them, then who knows.  Now you might have a 2-3 loss at large hopefull rather than the 1-2 loss at large hopeufll if they played the Endicotts and Uticas.  And maybe that one year the 1 loss RPI gets that at large bid despite the SOS.

Jonny -

The game against U-Dub-Dub can't hurt them... It's out of region.  In fact, it can only help them unless the Committee finds a tie after searching through 3 or 4 other criteria first -- and even then, it probably wouldn't hurt them.

It hurts them in the fact that the game takes the place of an in region win.  Or two of them for that matter (Utica and Endicott)