FB: Liberty League

[PBR...]

LD11 was successful in the Buffalo Wild Wings 'Blazin' Wing challenge last night.  The challenge is to eat 12 wings with their hottest 'Blazin' hot sauce in under 6 minutes.  No Blue Cheese, No drinks, no napkins.  This sauce didn't taste great but it was hot as hell and they swamped the biggest wings they could find in the stuff.  I actually got a major head rush.  

So anyway, I rifled through about 8 of them in maybe 90 seconds.  Then I hit a bit of a wall.  Felt like I might almost throw up.  Sauce all over me.  I had a crowd of like 30 people watching me in awe.  I ended up finishing at about 4:15.  No too shabby if you ask me.  I won a pretty killer tee-shirt, and more importantly, like 5 people at the bar bought me free drinks.  

Overall, i'ts an experience I would do again if someone challeneged me to it with some cash, because i know it can be beat.  I even tried to enjoy the first 4-5 wings, but it had to turn all business.  I have streams of fire coming out of my butt this morning, but that is expected I suppose.  

The gauntlet has been thrown down.  Anyone with a BWW around you, give it a shot.  It's something you can brag to your kids about some day.

LMAO...was wandering if u had a case of monkey azz this morning...figured you had to as almost guaranteed w/ that hot of sauce and beerz...pbr recommends a big philly soft pretzel to clog up the o-ring

[Jonny Utah]

Part/most of the NEFC issue is lack of full-time coaches and institutional lack of commitment to the program. There are some part-time HEAD coaches in that league, whereas at most schools in Division III there are at least three coaches that are full-time on campus. (Not necessarily full-time football but full-time at the school, which makes them far more available for student-athletes, etc.)

Many NEFC football programs are understaffed compared to the D-III average.

Thats true too.  Curry has 3 fulltime coaches (at least) and have built a decent program and recruiting base in the Boston area.  The head coach now (Bandini) is very active in local clinics and camps for MA high school students.  They also have an IC grad as their DC which is probably 99% of the reason they are good.

[redswarm81]

This raises what I think is the "big picture."  There's no doubt that by historical standards, the NEFC teams simply don't compare well with nearly any AQ conference.

But for the life of me, I can't figure out why.  I mean, look at it from the perspective of the Jonny U 4 level plan for mining success in D-III football:

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program. 
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but . . . .  You need both. 

Level 2
1) Type of school-- The better academic schools will have better programs . . .
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc. 

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, . . .
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles

I can't see why the NEFC--esp. Curry, to use them as an example, isn't filled to overflowing with success.  In Level 1, through 2006 Curry had Steve Nelson, who--especially in the Boston-centric NEFC area, must have been like the sun outshining all other recruiters.  He surely must have been able to out-recruit all others, and he can't have been that bad a coach, since his teams typically ran the table in the NEFC.  Even if he wasn't that great a coach, the NEFC has 16 teams!  There has to be a decent coach or five in such a  crowd.

Furthermore, with 16 teams, there have to be a few teams with the right combination of image and academics to attract quality players.  Surely eastern MA has decent ballplayers.  In fact, it would seem to me that schools such as RPI, Union, Rochester and Hobart must have a tougher time recruiting for their higher academic requirements, than most of the NEFC teams.

We all know the size and athletic ability of D-III football players, especially if you stick to the 80% that fall within the main part of the bell curve.  Plenty of teams win with those players, and win out of their own conferences with such players.

What then is the institutional basis for the lack of success by the NEFC?

RS, look at level 2.

When guys like LD, U89 and I sit down with our guidance counselors in high school and look at what schools might be good fits, Curry and the NEFC schools are not on there (even though MIT was my safety school).

And this is still division 3 football, where most of the players in the country are going to be good students at some pretty good schools.

So the reason that all of the NEFC schools have historically been unable to compete successfully outside their conference is because the smart players go elsewhere?

Maybe my premise is wrong, but I was thinking that higher academic requirements reduced the pool of quality athletes available for recruiting.  Aren't there a lot (I mean a LOT) of good football players who aren't as smart as you and LewDogg, who would be good fits at NEFC schools?

And I never said "smart" players dont go to NEFC schools.  Im just trying to be realistic.  Lets say you are a high school senior with good grades.  You call up the Williams coach and tell him you want to play football there but he tells you that you dont meet the academic requirements, he might tell you to look at Ithaca, another good school with good football, but not as hard with the academic requirements.  On the other hand, the kid that wouldnt be able to get into Williams if he didnt play football, might get into Williams because he is a great football player.  He might have had to go to Ithaca if he were just a "regular student".  Thats a whole other conversation but it still happens in d3 sports.


At d1 the higher academic requirements reduce the pool of quality atheltes, then you have 99.9% of the other athletes looking to go to college and not the NFL.  These are the players that have to place college over football for the most part.  If I was a d1 talent, then I would take the free education at a d1 school, even if that school might not be on par with other d3 schools academically.  You have to take the cash first.

And the facilities are the other factor too.  Ithaca has a nicer campus and student life factor than every single NEFC school.  The football stadium is nice, the facilities are better...I could go on and on about that one.

A couple of points immediately jump to mind.  First, I have to note the cosmic irony of the fact that as soon as Jonny U sings the intellectual praises of former D-III student-athlete LD11, LD himself posts a heartfelt, articulate first person account of how he overcame a wave of nausea as he mashed his face into a pile of chicken wings smothered in near-toxically spicy sauce.  I assume everyone else's D-III heart swelled with pride, as did mine.

Second, I fear we're talking past each other.  You seem to be claiming that smrt athletes are the key to success in D-III athletics.  My point is that there are a lot more dumb athletes than there are smart athletes.  Nearly every NEFC school is in a better position to recruit dumb athletes than most LL and E8 schools, some of which have very high academic entrance requirements.

Finally, did you really mean to say that "At d1 the higher academic requirements reduce the pool of quality athletes?"   The D-1 of such intellectual standouts as Maurice Clarett?  Have you seen the graduation rates of D-1 football players?  If you meant to say D-1, then I'm really confused.

The Poohbah's point about the lack of full time coaches in the NEFC is well taken, but it certainly doesn't explain the Curry example, where not only is the coach full time, but for nearly a decade, it was a highly regarded former NFL player.

[PBR...]

just remember RS some DI schools have very solid graduation rates and players get real degrees not bogus ones. maurice clarett absolute tool but some schools and coaches hold their players to a higher standard than what the ncaa requires. Which does make it tougher to recruit a certain type of athlete that is going to make the grade if u will....

[labart96]

TGP watched the Sox game.  Once again, they will defeat the Angels in the ALDS.

It's science.

[union89]

LD11 was successful in the Buffalo Wild Wings 'Blazin' Wing challenge last night.  The challenge is to eat 12 wings with their hottest 'Blazin' hot sauce in under 6 minutes.  No Blue Cheese, No drinks, no napkins.  This sauce didn't taste great but it was hot as hell and they swamped the biggest wings they could find in the stuff.  I actually got a major head rush.  

So anyway, I rifled through about 8 of them in maybe 90 seconds.  Then I hit a bit of a wall.  Felt like I might almost throw up.  Sauce all over me.  I had a crowd of like 30 people watching me in awe.  I ended up finishing at about 4:15.  No too shabby if you ask me.  I won a pretty killer tee-shirt, and more importantly, like 5 people at the bar bought me free drinks.  

Overall, i'ts an experience I would do again if someone challeneged me to it with some cash, because i know it can be beat.  I even tried to enjoy the first 4-5 wings, but it had to turn all business.  I have streams of fire coming out of my butt this morning, but that is expected I suppose.  

The gauntlet has been thrown down.  Anyone with a BWW around you, give it a shot.  It's something you can brag to your kids about some day.

U89 feels your pain (literally)....U89 loves Redbones and the wings at Buffs in Newton....the next 3 days are not pretty, but the 2 hours of shoveling it in are magical...

[PBR...]

TGP watched the Sox game.  Once again, they will defeat the Angels in the ALDS.

It's science.

fightin' phils vs. bosox series? would be fun to see

[Jonny Utah]

This raises what I think is the "big picture."  There's no doubt that by historical standards, the NEFC teams simply don't compare well with nearly any AQ conference.

But for the life of me, I can't figure out why.  I mean, look at it from the perspective of the Jonny U 4 level plan for mining success in D-III football:

You need several things at several levels to be a great d3 football team.  Some of these are pretty obvious.

Level 1
1) Coaching-- This is by far the #1 most important aspect for a great program. 
2) Recruiting-- Kind of goes with coaching, but . . . .  You need both. 

Level 2
1) Type of school-- The better academic schools will have better programs . . .
2) Facilities--  Big stadium, good crowds, nice weight room, rugs in the locker room etc. 

Level 3
1) Tradition-- This is built from the first two levels, . . .
2) Location--  This can be an advantage to local schools around good football areas

Level 4
1) All the other intangibles

I can't see why the NEFC--esp. Curry, to use them as an example, isn't filled to overflowing with success.  In Level 1, through 2006 Curry had Steve Nelson, who--especially in the Boston-centric NEFC area, must have been like the sun outshining all other recruiters.  He surely must have been able to out-recruit all others, and he can't have been that bad a coach, since his teams typically ran the table in the NEFC.  Even if he wasn't that great a coach, the NEFC has 16 teams!  There has to be a decent coach or five in such a  crowd.

Furthermore, with 16 teams, there have to be a few teams with the right combination of image and academics to attract quality players.  Surely eastern MA has decent ballplayers.  In fact, it would seem to me that schools such as RPI, Union, Rochester and Hobart must have a tougher time recruiting for their higher academic requirements, than most of the NEFC teams.

We all know the size and athletic ability of D-III football players, especially if you stick to the 80% that fall within the main part of the bell curve.  Plenty of teams win with those players, and win out of their own conferences with such players.

What then is the institutional basis for the lack of success by the NEFC?

RS, look at level 2.

When guys like LD, U89 and I sit down with our guidance counselors in high school and look at what schools might be good fits, Curry and the NEFC schools are not on there (even though MIT was my safety school).

And this is still division 3 football, where most of the players in the country are going to be good students at some pretty good schools.

So the reason that all of the NEFC schools have historically been unable to compete successfully outside their conference is because the smart players go elsewhere?

Maybe my premise is wrong, but I was thinking that higher academic requirements reduced the pool of quality athletes available for recruiting.  Aren't there a lot (I mean a LOT) of good football players who aren't as smart as you and LewDogg, who would be good fits at NEFC schools?

And I never said "smart" players dont go to NEFC schools.  Im just trying to be realistic.  Lets say you are a high school senior with good grades.  You call up the Williams coach and tell him you want to play football there but he tells you that you dont meet the academic requirements, he might tell you to look at Ithaca, another good school with good football, but not as hard with the academic requirements.  On the other hand, the kid that wouldnt be able to get into Williams if he didnt play football, might get into Williams because he is a great football player.  He might have had to go to Ithaca if he were just a "regular student".  Thats a whole other conversation but it still happens in d3 sports.


At d1 the higher academic requirements reduce the pool of quality atheltes, then you have 99.9% of the other athletes looking to go to college and not the NFL.  These are the players that have to place college over football for the most part.  If I was a d1 talent, then I would take the free education at a d1 school, even if that school might not be on par with other d3 schools academically.  You have to take the cash first.

And the facilities are the other factor too.  Ithaca has a nicer campus and student life factor than every single NEFC school.  The football stadium is nice, the facilities are better...I could go on and on about that one.

A couple of points immediately jump to mind.  First, I have to note the cosmic irony of the fact that as soon as Jonny U sings the intellectual praises of former D-III student-athlete LD11, LD himself posts a heartfelt, articulate first person account of how he overcame a wave of nausea as he mashed his face into a pile of chicken wings smothered in near-toxically spicy sauce.  I assume everyone else's D-III heart swelled with pride, as did mine.

Second, I fear we're talking past each other.  You seem to be claiming that smrt athletes are the key to success in D-III athletics.  My point is that there are a lot more dumb athletes than there are smart athletes.  Nearly every NEFC school is in a better position to recruit dumb athletes than most LL and E8 schools, some of which have very high academic entrance requirements.

Finally, did you really mean to say that "At d1 the higher academic requirements reduce the pool of quality athletes?"   The D-1 of such intellectual standouts as Maurice Clarett?  Have you seen the graduation rates of D-1 football players?  If you meant to say D-1, then I'm really confused.

The Poohbah's point about the lack of full time coaches in the NEFC is well taken, but it certainly doesn't explain the Curry example, where not only is the coach full time, but for nearly a decade, it was a highly regarded former NFL player.

I dont think there are more "dumb" athletes than "smart" ones.  I believe in good and bad students anyway.  Like PBR mentions, many "dumb" or bad students will not and can not last at any school.  They drop out after freshman year.  Then are the athletes that dont graduate or cant make the ncaa minimum requirements anyway.  So these students cant even be placed in the potential NCAA student-athlete field in the first place.

But I mistyped anyway, I meant to say:

"D1 schools reduce the pool of quality athletes by .1 percent"

and not

"At d1 the higher academic requirements reduce the pool of quality atheltes"

[Jonny Utah]

TGP watched the Sox game.  Once again, they will defeat the Angels in the ALDS.

It's science.

fightin' phils vs. bosox series? would be fun to see

I will be in Philly to see one of those games if that happens.  I hear great things about that place.

[lewdogg11]

Redswarm, when did you get so cool?  Oh wait, never mind, you are the polar opposite of that....


U89, I miss Buff's.  That place was the balls.  We used to go to John Brewers too on Wing night over in Waltham.  They had like 10 cent wing night and for the Boston area, they weren't bad.  most wings up there suck though.

[Frank Rossi]

U89 - Will I see you in Worcester?  And if so, should I bring my suit of armor, sword and shield to thwart your attacks?

[Garnet]

Garnet paid a visit to the local BWLD outlet a few months back.  After his visit he vowed to never return again with the family.  Looks like a good place to go for a few drinks while watching a game though. The food quality was awful.

[labart96]

TGP watched the Sox game.  Once again, they will defeat the Angels in the ALDS.

It's science.

fightin' phils vs. bosox series? would be fun to see

I will be in Philly to see one of those games if that happens.  I hear great things about that place.

Well, TGP is hoping for a LAD (aka Red Sox West) vs. Sawx WS since that would be in TGP's back yard.

[union89]

U89 - Will I see you in Worcester?  And if so, should I bring my suit of armor, sword and shield to thwart your attacks?

Frank,
U89 will be there.....Sunday is this old-timers birthday, so U89 will be in a jovial mood unless the Dutchmen lay an egg versus the Bizarroneers.

By the way, I think you're a good dude.....we just differ greatly on where the Union football program is now and where it needs to go....

[union89]

TGP watched the Sox game.  Once again, they will defeat the Angels in the ALDS.

It's science.

fightin' phils vs. bosox series? would be fun to see

I will be in Philly to see one of those games if that happens.  I hear great things about that place.

Well, TGP is hoping for a LAD (aka Red Sox West) vs. Sawx WS since that would be in TGP's back yard.

TGP, kind of funny and annoying.  If Boston plays the Dodgers in the WS, Manny would be GUARANTEED a World Series ring AND 2 World Series shares......where's the justice?