FB: Liberty League

[Jonny Utah]

Ok, interssted to see this week's d3 poll with the Curry vs. RPI/Hobart situation...

Curry 21
Salve Regina 7

RPI 27
Rochester 17

Hobart 16
St Lawrence 10

Will anything change this week?  I doubt it.  I think RPI should get more votes.  Hobart is still suspect.  Salve Regina is terrible, and while still winning by 2 TDs, 21 points seems like a struggle for Curry in the league of Pop-Warner.

I would be willing to bet Hartwick gets more votes than all of them.

Hartwick gets more votes in the Arena Football polls this week - not the conventional polls.  Their defense is just beyond words for a team that can score 30-50 points every week.  I think the "Cage" they play in made them think that they really ARE playing Arena Football.

I was insinuating that the pollsters have boners for Fisher, so It's not that Fisher isn't good, it's that Hartwick must be AWESOME...

My question is how this loss by SJF affects the E8 as a whole -- it's looking more and more mediocre by the week.

If SJF beat hartwick 70-40 would your thoughts change?  It just seems like it may have more parity (Utica beating SC and giving RPI a game) than in past years.

I think SJFs loss to Hartwick makes both the E8 and LL look better as a whole from top to bottom.

[Frank Rossi]

Was in Worcester yesterday.  I agree with Frank and dlip that Union needs to move toward the younger players, especially at QB.  I really like this Connolly kid, but unlike Frank, I never really saw much in Catellier...I think the decision is pretty easy there.

On another note, the soph. Coney is a total stud.  In years to come, the combo of the frosh & soph could break some serious records for the Dutchmen.

Back to the game, the field goal team once again cost the team dearly in this 1.  Union missed a chip shot to tie the game as time expired.  U89 stood directly behind the Union bench and the players were obviously VERY frustrated with the unit.  A number of the players were shouting, "Two damn weeks in a row!!!  This is rediculas!!!"  Not a good situation at this time for that unit, as it seems the team itself is starting to place blame directly on them...the situation needs to be addressed obviously.  Also, Coney rushed 32 times for 127 yards and U89 still thinks he was underutilized!!!  I think the kid should have been fed more especially early and the outcome could have been different.

The prior play didn't do the kicker any favors... placed the ball on the right hash mark for a left-footed kicker with a narrow angle to deal with for the kicker.  It actually wasn't a gimme kick if you take a second to think about that aspect of it.  There's no guarantee again, either, that Union would have won in Overtime -- WPI was driven Saturday.  Remember, too, that WPI missed two of their own extra points, leading to the tie scenario existing at all.

Out of curiosity, U89, how much action of Catallier did you see in the past 14 Dutchmen games??

[Frank Rossi]

Ok, interssted to see this week's d3 poll with the Curry vs. RPI/Hobart situation...

Curry 21
Salve Regina 7

RPI 27
Rochester 17

Hobart 16
St Lawrence 10

Will anything change this week?  I doubt it.  I think RPI should get more votes.  Hobart is still suspect.  Salve Regina is terrible, and while still winning by 2 TDs, 21 points seems like a struggle for Curry in the league of Pop-Warner.

I would be willing to bet Hartwick gets more votes than all of them.

Hartwick gets more votes in the Arena Football polls this week - not the conventional polls.  Their defense is just beyond words for a team that can score 30-50 points every week.  I think the "Cage" they play in made them think that they really ARE playing Arena Football.

I was insinuating that the pollsters have boners for Fisher, so It's not that Fisher isn't good, it's that Hartwick must be AWESOME...

My question is how this loss by SJF affects the E8 as a whole -- it's looking more and more mediocre by the week.

If SJF beat hartwick 70-40 would your thoughts change?  It just seems like it may have more parity (Utica beating SC and giving RPI a game) than in past years.

I think SJFs loss to Hartwick makes both the E8 and LL look better as a whole from top to bottom.

If 'wick wasn't averaging 40 points on defense, I'd maybe agree with you.  I think the Hartwick win doesn't help the E8 one bit.  If it had been a team that seemed somewhat more balanced and poised for a real E8 title run, I'd give you some benefit of the doubt here.

[dlippiel]

Frank three things with Catellier. One I am a local and I loved the fact that a local kid was in there competing every week at the helm for the Dutch. Yet from last year to this year I have become somewhat skeptical of Andrews ability to lead the Dutchmen to where they need to or want to be. I want to be careful here and premise this discussion by saying that I have the utmost respect Andrew as a student athlete and competetior. I would never want to come across and place all the blame on him or make him feel that he isn't talented because that is just not the case. Unfortunetly when you step up and play college football or college sports in general the stakes are very high and you are in a position to be judged. I can relate because in Junior college hockey I lost my "C" my senior year because I simply wasen't doing the job I needed to to lead the team. Personally I was getting recruited very well and playing O.K but just not doing the job for the team. I think here (only my opinion) Connelly is what is best for the Dutch right now. The second thing with Catellier is I think he is very inconsistent. He shows great poise at times and others he seems to not have it. I think that is why last year they kept going with Jared even when Andrew got healthy again. I think adequate time has been taken for his consistency to improve and it has not happened the way the Dutchemn need. Third he is quite fragile for this level of football and the type of pressure he gets inside the pocket. I am always concerned that he is going to get hurt and he always seems to get banged up throughout almost every game I have seen him play. Especially this year at Springfield. He just seems to get hammered and dosen't have the "thickness" to keep taking it. Again here I can relate being a small guy myself and not making it to the next level in hockey partially because of my size. Again I I tons of respect for Catellier and think he is a good athlete and QB. I think Connelly has more potential at this point and will serve the team better in the long run. He is big, strong and has a solid arm. Maybe U89 has some similar thoughts?

[Jonny Utah]

Ok, interssted to see this week's d3 poll with the Curry vs. RPI/Hobart situation...

Curry 21
Salve Regina 7

RPI 27
Rochester 17

Hobart 16
St Lawrence 10

Will anything change this week?  I doubt it.  I think RPI should get more votes.  Hobart is still suspect.  Salve Regina is terrible, and while still winning by 2 TDs, 21 points seems like a struggle for Curry in the league of Pop-Warner.

I would be willing to bet Hartwick gets more votes than all of them.

Hartwick gets more votes in the Arena Football polls this week - not the conventional polls.  Their defense is just beyond words for a team that can score 30-50 points every week.  I think the "Cage" they play in made them think that they really ARE playing Arena Football.

I was insinuating that the pollsters have boners for Fisher, so It's not that Fisher isn't good, it's that Hartwick must be AWESOME...

My question is how this loss by SJF affects the E8 as a whole -- it's looking more and more mediocre by the week.

If SJF beat hartwick 70-40 would your thoughts change?  It just seems like it may have more parity (Utica beating SC and giving RPI a game) than in past years.

I think SJFs loss to Hartwick makes both the E8 and LL look better as a whole from top to bottom.

If 'wick wasn't averaging 40 points on defense, I'd maybe agree with you.  I think the Hartwick win doesn't help the E8 one bit.  If it had been a team that seemed somewhat more balanced and poised for a real E8 title run, I'd give you some benefit of the doubt here.

Didnt the same thing happen last year when three E8 teams made it?

The only way this might hurt the E8 is if Utica gives SJF or IC a game.  If IC, SJF and Wick blow out the other opponents in the league what happens then?

[Reno Hightower]

Was in Worcester yesterday.  I agree with Frank and dlip that Union needs to move toward the younger players, especially at QB.  I really like this Connolly kid, but unlike Frank, I never really saw much in Catellier...I think the decision is pretty easy there.

On another note, the soph. Coney is a total stud.  In years to come, the combo of the frosh & soph could break some serious records for the Dutchmen.

Back to the game, the field goal team once again cost the team dearly in this 1.  Union missed a chip shot to tie the game as time expired.  U89 stood directly behind the Union bench and the players were obviously VERY frustrated with the unit.  A number of the players were shouting, "Two damn weeks in a row!!!  This is rediculas!!!"  Not a good situation at this time for that unit, as it seems the team itself is starting to place blame directly on them...the situation needs to be addressed obviously.  Also, Coney rushed 32 times for 127 yards and U89 still thinks he was underutilized!!!  I think the kid should have been fed more especially early and the outcome could have been different.

The prior play didn't do the kicker any favors... placed the ball on the right hash mark for a left-footed kicker with a narrow angle to deal with for the kicker.  It actually wasn't a gimme kick if you take a second to think about that aspect of it.  There's no guarantee again, either, that Union would have won in Overtime -- WPI was driven Saturday.  Remember, too, that WPI missed two of their own extra points, leading to the tie scenario existing at all.

Out of curiosity, U89, how much action of Catallier did you see in the past 14 Dutchmen games??

A Left Footed kicker who tends to pull the ball. Right hash is right where you want him. And he still missed it Wide Left.

[Frank Rossi]

Ok, interssted to see this week's d3 poll with the Curry vs. RPI/Hobart situation...

Curry 21
Salve Regina 7

RPI 27
Rochester 17

Hobart 16
St Lawrence 10

Will anything change this week?  I doubt it.  I think RPI should get more votes.  Hobart is still suspect.  Salve Regina is terrible, and while still winning by 2 TDs, 21 points seems like a struggle for Curry in the league of Pop-Warner.

I would be willing to bet Hartwick gets more votes than all of them.

Hartwick gets more votes in the Arena Football polls this week - not the conventional polls.  Their defense is just beyond words for a team that can score 30-50 points every week.  I think the "Cage" they play in made them think that they really ARE playing Arena Football.

I was insinuating that the pollsters have boners for Fisher, so It's not that Fisher isn't good, it's that Hartwick must be AWESOME...

My question is how this loss by SJF affects the E8 as a whole -- it's looking more and more mediocre by the week.

If SJF beat hartwick 70-40 would your thoughts change?  It just seems like it may have more parity (Utica beating SC and giving RPI a game) than in past years.

I think SJFs loss to Hartwick makes both the E8 and LL look better as a whole from top to bottom.

If 'wick wasn't averaging 40 points on defense, I'd maybe agree with you.  I think the Hartwick win doesn't help the E8 one bit.  If it had been a team that seemed somewhat more balanced and poised for a real E8 title run, I'd give you some benefit of the doubt here.

Didnt the same thing happen last year when three E8 teams made it?

The only way this might hurt the E8 is if Utica gives SJF or IC a game.  If IC, SJF and Wick blow out the other opponents in the league what happens then?

This isn't last year.  Hartwick's defense appears to be decidedly worse, with the exception of last year's Utica game.  They aren't running the table this year from here on out, so be careful pegging your hopes on any Hartwick bandwagon.

['gro]

Union's Catallier is related to the one that played at RPI right?  Any reason why they chose separate schools? Both were QB's that may have played into it.

[pumkinattack]

I just wanted to add a little Hobart representation here and add some thoughts about LL from a newcomer:

-Seems like Bart has the best wins to date (CMU & Dickinson).  
RPI should be good with Robertson being basically a 4 year starter (I think he came in 2nd quarter of the Bart 3ot game a couple of years ago), but it seems like Union losing to WPI creates more questions than answers.  Rochester got credit for beating Union, but now Union is 1-3, 0-2 in conference before playing Bart or RPI.  Maybe more so this year than in other years, RPI and Bart will be unknown until they play each other.  

-Bart has not put a complete game together and in each game has looked suspect, but in different areas.  

-I think Bart's Will and Rover may be suspect.  Robinson is good, but undersized, so Dickinson and CMU had success running outside whenever Hager and Sanders didn't scrape well.  

-Bart's secondary is very inexperienced, but has held up well.  They haven't played any great passing games yet though (Dickinson is decent with a very good, experienced QB).  

-SLU has passing success in the first half because Bart was dropping the LB's into zone a lot and the front four (as good as they are) didn't get pressure.  Aruck clogs the middle, but the DE's weren't getting any pressure.  I kind of wonder if Yoder is trying to protect the inexperienced secondary by not blitzing as much, once they did they shut SLU down pretty much.  

-Seems like the key to the RPI & WPI games (I'm not ignoring Union or Roch, but neither appear to have meaningful passing games at this point) is to have the secondary play more man and hope they hold up.  

-Can either the LL or E8 get two in this year?  With the LL, it pretty much has to be Bart and RPI.  With the E8, if Ithaca and Fisher win out they probably would both get in.  If salisbury beats Fisher, the second bid may be in trouble because the pool B is so thin at two bids for Case, Wesley, Saslisbury, mabye Wash U and probably a couple of others that I'm not thinking about.  The nice thing for Bart is that CMU and Dickinson should be above .500 and possibly .667 so that will help.

-Seems like the MAC might be the best of the Eastern conferences this year, but who knows.  NJAC could be there, but that conference seems to have parity, but parity doesn't always mean strength across the board.

-On Frank Rossi's tenth game question.  I hate that Bart is going to 9 games.  I played when we had ten and then dropped Hartwick to go to 9.  If you were going to 9, that was the game to drop.  Bart was ascending to above mediocrity, not this decades success and Wick threw 65 times a game, so they were dangerous and it was lose-lose for Bart.  Beat them and "you were supposed to if you are good", lose and you are still a poser trying to get ahead.  
  -I think there is a budget argument, Football gets maybe 1,000 to a game including students and the tickets are $4 or $5 so his math doesn't work for us.  Also, with the lacrosse debacle last spring, they are now forced to drop more money into lax to recommit to DI.  I could be wrong on this, but the travel and size (40 - 50 guys) is probably greater than SLU/RPI/Union's hockey budget.  
 -Additionally, title IX may play a role.  Having a DI spring sport plus 90 guys (give or take) on the football team is a lot of dollars that have to be made up with smaller women's sports.  Bart has dropped Men's swimming and baseball because of title IX issues.  It's not that easy to add women's sports for a number of reasons - its easier to cut men's sports.  

-Lastly, LewDogg, I did the BWW challenge in 2:24 and would have done it faster except I dropped one because it was too cooked hot.  I bit into the middle and burned my teeth.  It was at a ghetto one in Port Chester, NY and they didn't have the t-shirt and almost didn't have polaroid film.  I used to work just over the CT border and I actually like the blazin.  A couple of my cohorts would go on $0.50 boneless Thursdays and I'd order 20 blazin boneless nuggets.  

[Jonny Utah]

Ok, interssted to see this week's d3 poll with the Curry vs. RPI/Hobart situation...

Curry 21
Salve Regina 7

RPI 27
Rochester 17

Hobart 16
St Lawrence 10

Will anything change this week?  I doubt it.  I think RPI should get more votes.  Hobart is still suspect.  Salve Regina is terrible, and while still winning by 2 TDs, 21 points seems like a struggle for Curry in the league of Pop-Warner.

I would be willing to bet Hartwick gets more votes than all of them.

Hartwick gets more votes in the Arena Football polls this week - not the conventional polls.  Their defense is just beyond words for a team that can score 30-50 points every week.  I think the "Cage" they play in made them think that they really ARE playing Arena Football.

I was insinuating that the pollsters have boners for Fisher, so It's not that Fisher isn't good, it's that Hartwick must be AWESOME...

My question is how this loss by SJF affects the E8 as a whole -- it's looking more and more mediocre by the week.

If SJF beat hartwick 70-40 would your thoughts change?  It just seems like it may have more parity (Utica beating SC and giving RPI a game) than in past years.

I think SJFs loss to Hartwick makes both the E8 and LL look better as a whole from top to bottom.

If 'wick wasn't averaging 40 points on defense, I'd maybe agree with you.  I think the Hartwick win doesn't help the E8 one bit.  If it had been a team that seemed somewhat more balanced and poised for a real E8 title run, I'd give you some benefit of the doubt here.

Didnt the same thing happen last year when three E8 teams made it?

The only way this might hurt the E8 is if Utica gives SJF or IC a game.  If IC, SJF and Wick blow out the other opponents in the league what happens then?

This isn't last year.  Hartwick's defense appears to be decidedly worse, with the exception of last year's Utica game.  They aren't running the table this year from here on out, so be careful pegging your hopes on any Hartwick bandwagon.

How is its defense that much worse than last year?  They are 2-1 with one loss to an Ithaca team that was a top 25 team to start off the season.  Its about matchups with those guys clearly.   They cant be a bad team and Id lump them in with the 10 other upstate teams that seem to be even with each other.

Basically you can make an argument to rank each of the following upstate/e8/LL teams in the top spot.  I like ranking teams in tiers instead of ranking in this point of the season.  Any tier next  to the other tier (1 and 2, 2 and 3) should be able to beat the next tier.  But 1 shouldnt lose to the 3.

RPI
Hobart
Ithaca
SJF
Hartwick
Cortland
Alfred

After that you have the tier 2 teams.   

Rochester
Utica (yes, Utica)
Springfield
Union
WPI

Tier 3
St. Lawrence
Norwich

[labart96]

I just wanted to add a little Hobart representation here and add some thoughts about LL from a newcomer:

-Seems like Bart has the best wins to date (CMU & Dickinson).  
RPI should be good with Robertson being basically a 4 year starter (I think he came in 2nd quarter of the Bart 3ot game a couple of years ago), but it seems like Union losing to WPI creates more questions than answers.  Rochester got credit for beating Union, but now Union is 1-3, 0-2 in conference before playing Bart or RPI.  Maybe more so this year than in other years, RPI and Bart will be unknown until they play each other.  

-Bart has not put a complete game together and in each game has looked suspect, but in different areas.  

-I think Bart's Will and Rover may be suspect.  Robinson is good, but undersized, so Dickinson and CMU had success running outside whenever Hager and Sanders didn't scrape well.  

-Bart's secondary is very inexperienced, but has held up well.  They haven't played any great passing games yet though (Dickinson is decent with a very good, experienced QB).  

-SLU has passing success in the first half because Bart was dropping the LB's into zone a lot and the front four (as good as they are) didn't get pressure.  Aruck clogs the middle, but the DE's weren't getting any pressure.  I kind of wonder if Yoder is trying to protect the inexperienced secondary by not blitzing as much, once they did they shut SLU down pretty much.  

-Seems like the key to the RPI & WPI games (I'm not ignoring Union or Roch, but neither appear to have meaningful passing games at this point) is to have the secondary play more man and hope they hold up.  

-Can either the LL or E8 get two in this year?  With the LL, it pretty much has to be Bart and RPI.  With the E8, if Ithaca and Fisher win out they probably would both get in.  If salisbury beats Fisher, the second bid may be in trouble because the pool B is so thin at two bids for Case, Wesley, Saslisbury, mabye Wash U and probably a couple of others that I'm not thinking about.  The nice thing for Bart is that CMU and Dickinson should be above .500 and possibly .667 so that will help.

-Seems like the MAC might be the best of the Eastern conferences this year, but who knows.  NJAC could be there, but that conference seems to have parity, but parity doesn't always mean strength across the board.

-On Frank Rossi's tenth game question.  I hate that Bart is going to 9 games.  I played when we had ten and then dropped Hartwick to go to 9.  If you were going to 9, that was the game to drop.  Bart was ascending to above mediocrity, not this decades success and Wick threw 65 times a game, so they were dangerous and it was lose-lose for Bart.  Beat them and "you were supposed to if you are good", lose and you are still a poser trying to get ahead.  
  -I think there is a budget argument, Football gets maybe 1,000 to a game including students and the tickets are $4 or $5 so his math doesn't work for us.  Also, with the lacrosse debacle last spring, they are now forced to drop more money into lax to recommit to DI.  I could be wrong on this, but the travel and size (40 - 50 guys) is probably greater than SLU/RPI/Union's hockey budget.  
 -Additionally, title IX may play a role.  Having a DI spring sport plus 90 guys (give or take) on the football team is a lot of dollars that have to be made up with smaller women's sports.  Bart has dropped Men's swimming and baseball because of title IX issues.  It's not that easy to add women's sports for a number of reasons - its easier to cut men's sports.  

-Lastly, LewDogg, I did the BWW challenge in 2:24 and would have done it faster except I dropped one because it was too cooked hot.  I bit into the middle and burned my teeth.  It was at a ghetto one in Port Chester, NY and they didn't have the t-shirt and almost didn't have polaroid film.  I used to work just over the CT border and I actually like the blazin.  A couple of my cohorts would go on $0.50 boneless Thursdays and I'd order 20 blazin boneless nuggets.  

Welcome aboard PA!  TGP is more than happy to see another Bart alum/fan/poster and former player on the LLPP.

TGP will add you to his Comin Atcha weekly write-ups.

Great insights for an initial post.

[Frank Rossi]

JU -

You didn't just put Hartwick in Tier 1?!

[Jonny Utah]

JU -

You didn't just put Hartwick in Tier 1?!

Why not?  They took care of their NEFC teams just like RPI did, and then they beat an upstate team that everyone had ranked at either 1,2 or 3 in the fan poll.  What has any of those other teams done that hartwick hasnt?

But I understand what your saying a little.  They still got blown out by one of the other tier 1 teams.  But the fact that they beat one of the better ones might seperate them from the tier 2 teams. 

Maybe you could put them and Rochester into another category?  But then Rochester still has 3 losses.

[pumkinattack]

Isn't a little bit early to put Alfred into the top tier with a loss at home to an average team and no real challenges yet?  I was impressed looking at their profile since 2004 (winning 8 or 9 games each year), but would they (or Hartwick) have a better record than Rochester with Rochester's schedule thus far (Case Western, SJF, Union and RPI)?  Its hard to say Hobart, Ithaca or RPI would have a significantly better record with that schedule. 

Union has clearly dropped off (watch them go and ruin Bart's season now that I've said that).  It kind of looks like Springfield is tier III until they show something. 

Its just still too early.  Hobart started off 1 - 2 with all three games being close, but ended up thrashing a ranked Alfred and being the team that nobody wanted to face going into the playoffs (SJF proved to be the better team, but I personally wasn't disappointed by the performance). 

[Jonny Utah]

Isn't a little bit early to put Alfred into the top tier with a loss at home to an average team and no real challenges yet?  I was impressed looking at their profile since 2004 (winning 8 or 9 games each year), but would they (or Hartwick) have a better record than Rochester with Rochester's schedule thus far (Case Western, SJF, Union and RPI)?  Its hard to say Hobart, Ithaca or RPI would have a significantly better record with that schedule. 

Union has clearly dropped off (watch them go and ruin Bart's season now that I've said that).  It kind of looks like Springfield is tier III until they show something. 

Its just still too early.  Hobart started off 1 - 2 with all three games being close, but ended up thrashing a ranked Alfred and being the team that nobody wanted to face going into the playoffs (SJF proved to be the better team, but I personally wasn't disappointed by the performance). 

Well Hobart really hasnt done anything to put them ahead of Alfred either besides not losing a game.  If they had blown out a few teams I might say something different, but they did struggle with St. Lawrence, a team that got absoulty handled by the maybe the worst team in both the E8/LL (Norwich?)

If Hartwick can beat SJF, who says they cant beat RPI or Union?  Like I said, maybe wick and Rochester could be tier 1a teams.

As for Springfield, Im basing them now on the possibility that Utica might actually have a half/decent team this year, and the fact that they only lost to Union by a little.  I just dont think they are as bad as Norwich or St. Lawrence yet.  Ill redo the JU power rankings.

T-1
RPI
Hobart
Alfred
Ithaca
SJF
Cortland

T2
Hartwick
Rochester

T3
Union
WPI

T4/T5 (too tough to seperate all these
Springfield
Utica
St. Lawrence
Norwich
Buff St.
Brockport
Merchant Marine
Susquhana