FB: Liberty League

[superman57]

not so quickly...because if Alfred wins... you know put Alfred and Fisher in the ECAC watch...

The best thing for Union would be a Fisher win, a Ithaca win, a UW Stevens Point loss and Huessain some how making it into the tourney

[dlippiel]

I wonder if we might be over-rating the NEFC based on one win ever in the playoffs against a team that gave up 70 pts. to Utica in their prior game.  I also think Curry didn't deserve their top 25 ranking last year and would've lost in to any other opponent in the first round.  

Hobart beat NEFC reps in two of its three first NCAA first round games (the other vs. JCU in 2002) and got zero respect for beating them by a combined 60 - 16 (25 - 0 and 35 - 16).  Given that Hartwick last year was probably the weakest non-NEFC playoff rep in a long time, I would hope that everyone would extend the same skepticism to the NEFC win last year as they did to Bart after their first three playoff appearances (before they beat Cortland in a dogfight in 2005).  

That being said, I know everyone is high on Connelly, but he hasn't exactly lit it up even in their wins.  He was under 50% completions in their last game.  Given this, I think Union would win by 14 - 17 (not sure about a monkeystomp), but probably wouldn't put it away until the second half of the 4th Q vs. the best in the NEFC this year.  I think that Union would beat U of R by ten and probably beat WPI if they played again this year.  They have clearly improved.  Just like I would've loved to have gotten a hold of RPI again at the end of the season last year.  

My wish list is a Hobart first round NCAA win, RPI getting in and looking good (winning if they have a winnable game - not sure they could beat MUC or North Central), Union and/or WPI winning in ECAC games vs (ideally) AU and Rowan.    

Well said pumpkin and don't forget that Wick also lost to WNEC earlier that same year which is just pathetic! Who is to blame at Union I don't know. I tend to think everyone there has a little part including the fans. First of all it seems obvious that the academic administration has not been as supportive as they could be. Yet I believe there are many many fine athletes, D3 football studs that are excellent students, U just need to find them and get them to U. The one type of player that I think admissions tends to be scared of is the great athlete with questionable grades. From my experiences with U I have seen more often then not the admin back off from a kid with great academic potential but not necessarily performance, because of the possibility that kid won't cut it academically and how that will make the college look. Union is petrified of losing its prestigious academic reputation, petrified! Second you do have the other sports especially hockey. Now hockey to even have a shot of being successful without full scholarships needs a ton of support. Yet I feel it is the colleges job to balance that as much as possible. I mean to me, it seems as if they have this football program with such a great storied history and they are letting it continue to slip from prominence. What has the AD done lately for the program? He is a former player wouldn't you think he would battle to get it where it once was? I also think Audino needs to recruit more effectively.  He has a great pipeline to Florida, which has been a start, but he has been getting out recruited by King for awhile now. I would be curious to hear thoughts on this. I also feel it is important to say that even though I am poking at the program I clearly support the student athletes who are there now. I feel they are great representatives of the college and work their asses off to improve and be successful. I support them 100%, they are my team. No question though that this program as a whole needs to make something happen across the board to get back to where it was and where it should be!

[PBR...]

I wonder if we might be over-rating the NEFC based on one win ever in the playoffs against a team that gave up 70 pts. to Utica in their prior game.  I also think Curry didn't deserve their top 25 ranking last year and would've lost in to any other opponent in the first round.  

Hobart beat NEFC reps in two of its three first NCAA first round games (the other vs. JCU in 2002) and got zero respect for beating them by a combined 60 - 16 (25 - 0 and 35 - 16).  Given that Hartwick last year was probably the weakest non-NEFC playoff rep in a long time, I would hope that everyone would extend the same skepticism to the NEFC win last year as they did to Bart after their first three playoff appearances (before they beat Cortland in a dogfight in 2005).  

That being said, I know everyone is high on Connelly, but he hasn't exactly lit it up even in their wins.  He was under 50% completions in their last game.  Given this, I think Union would win by 14 - 17 (not sure about a monkeystomp), but probably wouldn't put it away until the second half of the 4th Q vs. the best in the NEFC this year.  I think that Union would beat U of R by ten and probably beat WPI if they played again this year.  They have clearly improved.  Just like I would've loved to have gotten a hold of RPI again at the end of the season last year.  

My wish list is a Hobart first round NCAA win, RPI getting in and looking good (winning if they have a winnable game - not sure they could beat MUC or North Central), Union and/or WPI winning in ECAC games vs (ideally) AU and Rowan.    

Well said pumpkin and don't forget that Wick also lost to WNEC earlier that same year which is just pathetic! Who is to blame at Union I don't know. I tend to think everyone there has a little part including the fans. First of all it seems obvious that the academic administration has not been as supportive as they could be. Yet I believe there are many many fine athletes, D3 football studs that are excellent students, U just need to find them and get them to U. The one type of player that I think admissions tends to be scared of is the great athlete with questionable grades. From my experiences with U I have seen more often then not the admin back off from a kid with great academic potential but not necessarily performance, because of the possibility that kid won't cut it academically and how that will make the college look. Union is petrified of losing its prestigious academic reputation, petrified! Second you do have the other sports especially hockey. Now hockey to even have a shot of being successful without full scholarships needs a ton of support. Yet I feel it is the colleges job to balance that as much as possible. I mean to me, it seems as if they have this football program with such a great storied history and they are letting it continue to slip from prominence. What has the AD done lately for the program? He is a former player wouldn't you think he would battle to get it where it once was? I also think Audino needs to recruit more effectively.  He has a great pipeline to Florida, which has been a start, but he has been getting out recruited by King for awhile now. I would be curious to hear thoughts on this. I also feel it is important to say that even though I am poking at the program I clearly support the student athletes who are there now. I feel they are great representatives of the college and work their asses off to improve and be successful. I support them 100%, they are my team. No question though that this program as a whole needs to make something happen across the board to get back to where it was and where it should be!

good points...but my guess is the devils advocate says your in college for an education and at most LL schools a very good education that is challenging. so to the admin the schools academic standing and reputation is still of utmost importance. and very few kids will be going on to the nfl so they see it as getting solid students and academic performers are more important than winning a football game...how do you answer that for the administration that sports is more important than academics? (totally see your point pbr is just trying to think how the union admin is thinking and what their response might be)

[Senor RedTackle]

I wonder if we might be over-rating the NEFC based on one win ever in the playoffs against a team that gave up 70 pts. to Utica in their prior game.  I also think Curry didn't deserve their top 25 ranking last year and would've lost in to any other opponent in the first round.  

Hobart beat NEFC reps in two of its three first NCAA first round games (the other vs. JCU in 2002) and got zero respect for beating them by a combined 60 - 16 (25 - 0 and 35 - 16).  Given that Hartwick last year was probably the weakest non-NEFC playoff rep in a long time, I would hope that everyone would extend the same skepticism to the NEFC win last year as they did to Bart after their first three playoff appearances (before they beat Cortland in a dogfight in 2005).  

That being said, I know everyone is high on Connelly, but he hasn't exactly lit it up even in their wins.  He was under 50% completions in their last game.  Given this, I think Union would win by 14 - 17 (not sure about a monkeystomp), but probably wouldn't put it away until the second half of the 4th Q vs. the best in the NEFC this year.  I think that Union would beat U of R by ten and probably beat WPI if they played again this year.  They have clearly improved.  Just like I would've loved to have gotten a hold of RPI again at the end of the season last year.  

My wish list is a Hobart first round NCAA win, RPI getting in and looking good (winning if they have a winnable game - not sure they could beat MUC or North Central), Union and/or WPI winning in ECAC games vs (ideally) AU and Rowan.    

Well said pumpkin and don't forget that Wick also lost to WNEC earlier that same year which is just pathetic! Who is to blame at Union I don't know. I tend to think everyone there has a little part including the fans. First of all it seems obvious that the academic administration has not been as supportive as they could be. Yet I believe there are many many fine athletes, D3 football studs that are excellent students, U just need to find them and get them to U. The one type of player that I think admissions tends to be scared of is the great athlete with questionable grades. From my experiences with U I have seen more often then not the admin back off from a kid with great academic potential but not necessarily performance, because of the possibility that kid won't cut it academically and how that will make the college look. Union is petrified of losing its prestigious academic reputation, petrified! Second you do have the other sports especially hockey. Now hockey to even have a shot of being successful without full scholarships needs a ton of support. Yet I feel it is the colleges job to balance that as much as possible. I mean to me, it seems as if they have this football program with such a great storied history and they are letting it continue to slip from prominence. What has the AD done lately for the program? He is a former player wouldn't you think he would battle to get it where it once was? I also think Audino needs to recruit more effectively.  He has a great pipeline to Florida, which has been a start, but he has been getting out recruited by King for awhile now. I would be curious to hear thoughts on this. I also feel it is important to say that even though I am poking at the program I clearly support the student athletes who are there now. I feel they are great representatives of the college and work their asses off to improve and be successful. I support them 100%, they are my team. No question though that this program as a whole needs to make something happen across the board to get back to where it was and where it should be!

Honest question from an RPI fan to the Union community....

Is it a reasonable statement to say that RPI has taken the mantle from Union as the premier D3 football program in the capital district of NY in terms of 1) on field performance over the last 15 years and 2)commitment shown by the administration to the football program (admissions, financial aid, facilities..ie, the new stadium)??

RT is just as surprised as anyone to see what he considers to be a decline in the Union program from what it was in the 80' and early 90's. The Union that RT played against and was recruited by was the national power Union that was the standard by which RPI set its season. There is such hype and emotion in Troy every year over the Union game...and don't get RT wrong, it will always be a special game but it seems that in the last 4 or 5 years, Hobart has become the team RPI really needs to circle on the schedule as "The Game" in terms of post season implications. RT thinks the LL needs a strong Union and, personally, enjoys the concept of the "3 headed monster" in the LL - RPI, Hobart, and Union. Unfortunately, Union just seems to be inconsistent. Yes, the U has had some good teams recently but in RT's opinion, they used to be in the same category in the East as an Ithaca...basically, the team that reloads every year and if they aren't in the hunt for the NCAAs, it's a disappointment.

What do the Union fans think the issue is??

[redswarm81]

It's amazing what a ten-minute conversation can do regarding your perception of things...

I spoke with Dick Kaiser, the Division III Committee Chair, earlier this morning to schedule him to appear on "In the HuddLLe" this Sunday night at 7:50pm EST.  He accepted the invitation and will discuss the East Region's bracket and the discussion regarding the selection/seeding of Liberty League teams in the NCAA Playoffs that will occur Saturday night.

Mr. Kaiser was very forthcoming during our brief discussion, as we were joking about the task that lays ahead for the Committee -- no doubt, with 13 one-loss teams not leading in their conferences, the Committee's task is daunting with just six Pool C bids.  I learned a lot, and I thought I'd share some of the ideas he presented to me today:

- When I brought up Husson, his reaction was, "Well, they're a two-loss team."  He went on to discuss that the Committee cannot simply stop at Primary Criteria in general when deciding teams for the Football Championships because there are simply not enough games played to allow such a low number of statistics to control the selection.  Stated differently, Secondary Criteria are going to apply just as much and as quickly as Primary Criteria.  In a sport like basketball, in which 30+ games are generally played, the Primary Criteria/Secondary Criteria hierarchy can work.  However, in football, his belief is that they need to enter into a full discussion immediately, even weighing criteria like scores and some subjective standards when looking at Pool B and Pool C teams.  This would explain the treatment of Husson and SJF in the Regional Rankings thus far.

- At the same time, we talked a bit about strength of schedule issues.  He was pretty blunt during this discussion, in terms of stating that strength of schedule -- not just the numbers, but the subjective review of a team's schedule -- is crucial in this process.  Paraphrasing his comments accurately, his reaction was that if a team plays a soft out-of-conference schedule, they're not going to experience an easy selection process.  My point in bringing this up is that we should not underestimate the objective and subjective review of a team's out-of-conference schedule at this point when we consider these issues.

There will be a lot more discussion of this on Sunday night, but I walk away from my brief conversation with Mr. Kaiser feeling that he is truly on top of the situation (he spit out a good number of stats about the number of teams in line for consideration and the task the Committee faces) and wants to give fair treatment to these teams both objectively and subjectively (since the objective numbers are not comprehensive enough to allow for full faith and credit with just 7-10 regional games played).

If I were involved, I'd mention to der Kaiser that the NCAA Selection Criteria could easily be written to remove the distinction between Primary Criteria and Secondary Criteria--however, those words "primary" and "secondary" are in there.   I'm sorry to see the meaning of those words dismissed so quickly.

I'd also point out that the Secondary Criteria specifically distinguish in-Division record from overall record.  Ultimately, overall record (including v. non-Div. III competition) can be considered in the Secondary criteria, but Husson's 1.000 in-Division winning percentage must be considered separately from their overall record, and I don't see how that can possibly hurt Husson in the secondary criteria.

How exactly does one measure "fairness" in subjective considerations?   Husson's undefeated in-Region and in-Division, and they're a completely unknown quantity--except to the seven teams that they've beaten.  If I downgrade Husson because I don't know anything about them, am I being fair to them?  Do I really know any less about 7-0 in-Region/in-Division Husson than I know about 6-1 in-Region/6-3 in-Division St. John Fisher, who has behaved erratically all season (e.g., they eked out 3 point home wins v. woeful Buff St. and disappointing Springfield)?  I get really uncomfortable when teams are selected by subjective criteria--which aren't really criteria at all, they're just feelings.

We may not know much about Husson, but we know enough about Husson's quality of opponents to make some pretty cogent arguments for some subjectivity in the Committee's likely argument.  If you're going to try to argue Husson's case for a playoff slot, I'm all ears.

I thought that OWP/OOWP was supposed to tell us what we need to know about opponents (and opponents' opponents), so that we don't need to rely on subjectivity regarding opponents.

[Reno Hightower]

I wonder if we might be over-rating the NEFC based on one win ever in the playoffs against a team that gave up 70 pts. to Utica in their prior game.  I also think Curry didn't deserve their top 25 ranking last year and would've lost in to any other opponent in the first round.  

Hobart beat NEFC reps in two of its three first NCAA first round games (the other vs. JCU in 2002) and got zero respect for beating them by a combined 60 - 16 (25 - 0 and 35 - 16).  Given that Hartwick last year was probably the weakest non-NEFC playoff rep in a long time, I would hope that everyone would extend the same skepticism to the NEFC win last year as they did to Bart after their first three playoff appearances (before they beat Cortland in a dogfight in 2005).  

That being said, I know everyone is high on Connelly, but he hasn't exactly lit it up even in their wins.  He was under 50% completions in their last game.  Given this, I think Union would win by 14 - 17 (not sure about a monkeystomp), but probably wouldn't put it away until the second half of the 4th Q vs. the best in the NEFC this year.  I think that Union would beat U of R by ten and probably beat WPI if they played again this year.  They have clearly improved.  Just like I would've loved to have gotten a hold of RPI again at the end of the season last year.  

My wish list is a Hobart first round NCAA win, RPI getting in and looking good (winning if they have a winnable game - not sure they could beat MUC or North Central), Union and/or WPI winning in ECAC games vs (ideally) AU and Rowan.    

Well said pumpkin and don't forget that Wick also lost to WNEC earlier that same year which is just pathetic! Who is to blame at Union I don't know. I tend to think everyone there has a little part including the fans. First of all it seems obvious that the academic administration has not been as supportive as they could be. Yet I believe there are many many fine athletes, D3 football studs that are excellent students, U just need to find them and get them to U. The one type of player that I think admissions tends to be scared of is the great athlete with questionable grades. From my experiences with U I have seen more often then not the admin back off from a kid with great academic potential but not necessarily performance, because of the possibility that kid won't cut it academically and how that will make the college look. Union is petrified of losing its prestigious academic reputation, petrified! Second you do have the other sports especially hockey. Now hockey to even have a shot of being successful without full scholarships needs a ton of support. Yet I feel it is the colleges job to balance that as much as possible. I mean to me, it seems as if they have this football program with such a great storied history and they are letting it continue to slip from prominence. What has the AD done lately for the program? He is a former player wouldn't you think he would battle to get it where it once was? I also think Audino needs to recruit more effectively.  He has a great pipeline to Florida, which has been a start, but he has been getting out recruited by King for awhile now. I would be curious to hear thoughts on this. I also feel it is important to say that even though I am poking at the program I clearly support the student athletes who are there now. I feel they are great representatives of the college and work their asses off to improve and be successful. I support them 100%, they are my team. No question though that this program as a whole needs to make something happen across the board to get back to where it was and where it should be!

Honest question from an RPI fan to the Union community....

Is it a reasonable statement to say that RPI has taken the mantle from Union as the premier D3 football program in the capital district of NY in terms of 1) on field performance over the last 15 years and 2)commitment shown by the administration to the football program (admissions, financial aid, facilities..ie, the new stadium)??

RT is just as surprised as anyone to see what he considers to be a decline in the Union program from what it was in the 80' and early 90's. The Union that RT played against and was recruited by was the national power Union that was the standard by which RPI set its season. There is such hype and emotion in Troy every year over the Union game...and don't get RT wrong, it will always be a special game but it seems that in the last 4 or 5 years, Hobart has become the team RPI really needs to circle on the schedule as "The Game" in terms of post season implications. RT thinks the LL needs a strong Union and, personally, enjoys the concept of the "3 headed monster" in the LL - RPI, Hobart, and Union. Unfortunately, Union just seems to be inconsistent. Yes, the U has had some good teams recently but in RT's opinion, they used to be in the same category in the East as an Ithaca...basically, the team that reloads every year and if they aren't in the hunt for the NCAAs, it's a disappointment.

What do the Union fans think the issue is??

'


Not disagreeing with you RT. The decade, while not over, has thus far been won by RPI.

Very sad state of affairs at the U. Somebody needs to step up and show some support for this once great program.

[labart96]

First off - who started THAT poll?  Ugh - TGP guess he'll have to appreciate the "compliment" (?)

Re:  The U, here's TGP's 2 cents.

Union has not declined so much as the rest of the league - and in some respects the entire East - have caught up.  Hobart's run of recent success has really only come in the past 8 seasons.  SJFC wasn't even on the national map back as little as 5 seasons ago.  Even IC, Rowan and other "Beasts of the East" have found more parity in their leagues than ever before.

Given the changing landscape of college applications/admissions - Union has grown more selective and has purposely aligned itself with the NESCAC schools for what TGP will simply call "marketing reasons". 

While that's great on one hand - and no one can deny that Union's rep academically is well deserved - TGP would argue that, save for Trinity (CT), a student-athlete looking at NESCAC caliber (football-wise) programs is likely not going to be the same quality of athlete being recruited at top-tier East Region football programs.

Still, TGP has from a very reliable source that Drew Connolly was Hobart's #1 rated recruit last year and well, he all know now that he chose Union.  Although the U is probably going to log a 5-4 season, but given the youth movement over there in Shocktown, TGP would not be surprised if Union is back to 7-2, 8-1 seasons by 2010 or 2011.

Football - like everything else in life   can run in cycles.  This is just a trough in the wave for Union while it's a crest for other programs.

[labart96]

On Bart's running game, I've had a problem with the way its been run all year.  The plays are called predictably (DeWall may design brilliant plays, but he needs to evolve more in his situational play calling) and the majority of the hand off's are from shotgun and there have been problems with the exchange all year (especially with Marlier) which have led to the RB confronting a defender behind the line of scrimmage.  Secondly, in both RPI and Union, Bart has had 60 carries, however only 27 have been by Marlier/Hobaica and Doyle isn't a runner like Strom.  Even in the RPI game, Marlier had 9 carries, Tritten the backup had two, both fumbled pitches.  Even in the Mizro/Swanson years they would line up under the center and hand off the ball 10 - 20 times a game.  This shotgun thing really came about Mizro's senior year, but even Blakowski took a bunch of handoffs from an I formation.  It could be that Spinella (great lax fogo) and Siravo haven't been as skilled of blockers as Whipple and the other predecessors, but its disappointing and, I think, Bart's biggest weakness.   

TGP, other than for chronological purposes we should probably not include Birdsall/S.Kenny in the discussion of great QB's.  They fall in the Doyle camp. 

TGP wasn't listing the "greats" more the chronology - however, per my write-up from last week - Doyle has quietly made a compelling case for himself in the Hobart record/stats books.

TGP agrees on the run commentary wholeheartedly.  TGP got a tip that Simon has the potential to be a Keith Brandon-caliber runner, but TGP thinks an injury has sidelined Dewayne at this point. 

The core issue - which we've discussed previously - is why the OL isn't able to dictate the LOS better?  Hobart has returned an experienced/core group of OL-men for the second consecutive, but the results have been sub-par IMO.

[Reno Hightower]

First off - who started THAT poll?  Ugh - TGP guess he'll have to appreciate the "compliment" (?)

Re:  The U, here's TGP's 2 cents.

Union has not declined so much as the rest of the league - and in some respects the entire East - have caught up.  Hobart's run of recent success has really only come in the past 8 seasons.  SJFC wasn't even on the national map back as little as 5 seasons ago.  Even IC, Rowan and other "Beasts of the East" have found more parity in their leagues than ever before.

Given the changing landscape of college applications/admissions - Union has grown more selective and has purposely aligned itself with the NESCAC schools for what TGP will simply call "marketing reasons". 

While that's great on one hand - and no one can deny that Union's rep academically is well deserved - TGP would argue that, save for Trinity (CT), a student-athlete looking at NESCAC caliber (football-wise) programs is likely not going to be the same quality of athlete being recruited at top-tier East Region football programs.

Still, TGP has from a very reliable source that Drew Connolly was Hobart's #1 rated recruit last year and well, he all know now that he chose Union.  Although the U is probably going to log a 5-4 season, but given the youth movement over there in Shocktown, TGP would not be surprised if Union is back to 7-2, 8-1 seasons by 2010 or 2011.

Football - like everything else in life   can run in cycles.  This is just a trough in the wave for Union while it's a crest for other programs.

Thats the point TGP, Union used to reload, not rebuild. Yes, it does appear that some great seasons could be on the horizon, but why the 2 year lapses?
Also, given Unions non-conf schedule next year. A good year could be 7-3. By "Union Standards" from 1982-2001, that is below average.

[labart96]

well given the parity across the board for all eastern programs, 2-3 loss seasons will become more of the norm (if they haven't already).

tgp has no idea where the union administration stands on things, but tgp believes that union will not have the same success as the '82-'01 run the harder they work at NESCAC-ing the institution.

[union89]

Since the inception of the LL in 2004, Union is 5-5 vs. Hobart and RPI.....I would rather they be 10-0 obviously, but 5-5 certainly lends credence to the 3 headed LL monster with Union very much involved.

The sky is not falling....Reno, especially needs to step back and take a breath.....

[unionfan]

I wonder if we might be over-rating the NEFC based on one win ever in the playoffs against a team that gave up 70 pts. to Utica in their prior game.  I also think Curry didn't deserve their top 25 ranking last year and would've lost in to any other opponent in the first round.  

Hobart beat NEFC reps in two of its three first NCAA first round games (the other vs. JCU in 2002) and got zero respect for beating them by a combined 60 - 16 (25 - 0 and 35 - 16).  Given that Hartwick last year was probably the weakest non-NEFC playoff rep in a long time, I would hope that everyone would extend the same skepticism to the NEFC win last year as they did to Bart after their first three playoff appearances (before they beat Cortland in a dogfight in 2005).  

That being said, I know everyone is high on Connelly, but he hasn't exactly lit it up even in their wins.  He was under 50% completions in their last game.  Given this, I think Union would win by 14 - 17 (not sure about a monkeystomp), but probably wouldn't put it away until the second half of the 4th Q vs. the best in the NEFC this year.  I think that Union would beat U of R by ten and probably beat WPI if they played again this year.  They have clearly improved.  Just like I would've loved to have gotten a hold of RPI again at the end of the season last year.  

My wish list is a Hobart first round NCAA win, RPI getting in and looking good (winning if they have a winnable game - not sure they could beat MUC or North Central), Union and/or WPI winning in ECAC games vs (ideally) AU and Rowan.    

Well said pumpkin and don't forget that Wick also lost to WNEC earlier that same year which is just pathetic! Who is to blame at Union I don't know. I tend to think everyone there has a little part including the fans. First of all it seems obvious that the academic administration has not been as supportive as they could be. Yet I believe there are many many fine athletes, D3 football studs that are excellent students, U just need to find them and get them to U. The one type of player that I think admissions tends to be scared of is the great athlete with questionable grades. From my experiences with U I have seen more often then not the admin back off from a kid with great academic potential but not necessarily performance, because of the possibility that kid won't cut it academically and how that will make the college look. Union is petrified of losing its prestigious academic reputation, petrified! Second you do have the other sports especially hockey. Now hockey to even have a shot of being successful without full scholarships needs a ton of support. Yet I feel it is the colleges job to balance that as much as possible. I mean to me, it seems as if they have this football program with such a great storied history and they are letting it continue to slip from prominence. What has the AD done lately for the program? He is a former player wouldn't you think he would battle to get it where it once was? I also think Audino needs to recruit more effectively.  He has a great pipeline to Florida, which has been a start, but he has been getting out recruited by King for awhile now. I would be curious to hear thoughts on this. I also feel it is important to say that even though I am poking at the program I clearly support the student athletes who are there now. I feel they are great representatives of the college and work their asses off to improve and be successful. I support them 100%, they are my team. No question though that this program as a whole needs to make something happen across the board to get back to where it was and where it should be!

Honest question from an RPI fan to the Union community....

Is it a reasonable statement to say that RPI has taken the mantle from Union as the premier D3 football program in the capital district of NY in terms of 1) on field performance over the last 15 years and 2)commitment shown by the administration to the football program (admissions, financial aid, facilities..ie, the new stadium)??

RT is just as surprised as anyone to see what he considers to be a decline in the Union program from what it was in the 80' and early 90's. The Union that RT played against and was recruited by was the national power Union that was the standard by which RPI set its season. There is such hype and emotion in Troy every year over the Union game...and don't get RT wrong, it will always be a special game but it seems that in the last 4 or 5 years, Hobart has become the team RPI really needs to circle on the schedule as "The Game" in terms of post season implications. RT thinks the LL needs a strong Union and, personally, enjoys the concept of the "3 headed monster" in the LL - RPI, Hobart, and Union. Unfortunately, Union just seems to be inconsistent. Yes, the U has had some good teams recently but in RT's opinion, they used to be in the same category in the East as an Ithaca...basically, the team that reloads every year and if they aren't in the hunt for the NCAAs, it's a disappointment.

What do the Union fans think the issue is??

I think if you look at on the field performance, Union has pretty much stayed even with RPI, with no clear winner, though RPI has clearly been more consistent on a WL record basis (but that may be a function of schedule).  And I'm with U89--the sky's not falling.  I think Union will continue to stay even with RPI, based on great alumni support and coaching, and continue to make an NCAA run about once a cycle.  I think we are right on schedule for our next great team next year.

But, if you look at program commitment, RPI is clearly out ahead.  Other than the stadium upgrade--which the administration was actually disgruntled with when Union supporters simply got together on their own to give money for that express purposes--the program has gotten less and less support, beginning with an AD early in the decade who cannibalized all athletics for the sake of the hockey program, followed by another AD that supported a broader array of programs but again at football's expense.  Although he did not go to a Stagg bowl, Audino was actually more consistently successul during the Sakala (Union former, and fantastic, AD) years that Bagnoli.

With that said, I actually do not think that it the $ support that matters most, but the college and athletic department's commitment to football (and other sports) in the admissions process.  This is clearly a vastly different game for Union than it was in the 90s (and a different planet from the 80s).  Union is a very, very small school, where 30 recruits are actually statistically significant, and there is simply no support for anything help to the sports program that would drive down the SAT/ACT averages.  The one expection to this was a year under Belmonte where they put in a Penn-style admissions system (with different bands) and the result a few years later was the stellar 2005 team.

Now, I am NOT saying that RPI has looser standards, but they certainly have a lot more room in a larger class size to look past the numbers for potential recruits and recognize (absolutely rightly) that a kid may have more to offer the campus community than a sparkly SAT score.

To me, as a loyal Union guy, I find the trend sad even beyond the football field.  That kind of an admissions approach tends to look past all the non-number factors that make a kid great on campus and succesful after college. It's not a coincidence that Union hasn't been able to find a student in 10 years interested in broadcasting a football game, because that's precisely the kind of interesting kid that you'd have to read below the SAT scores to identify and admit.  (They just got luck with Rossi--his SAT scores were stellar, I'm sure.  )

[dlippiel]

I wonder if we might be over-rating the NEFC based on one win ever in the playoffs against a team that gave up 70 pts. to Utica in their prior game.  I also think Curry didn't deserve their top 25 ranking last year and would've lost in to any other opponent in the first round.  

Hobart beat NEFC reps in two of its three first NCAA first round games (the other vs. JCU in 2002) and got zero respect for beating them by a combined 60 - 16 (25 - 0 and 35 - 16).  Given that Hartwick last year was probably the weakest non-NEFC playoff rep in a long time, I would hope that everyone would extend the same skepticism to the NEFC win last year as they did to Bart after their first three playoff appearances (before they beat Cortland in a dogfight in 2005).  

That being said, I know everyone is high on Connelly, but he hasn't exactly lit it up even in their wins.  He was under 50% completions in their last game.  Given this, I think Union would win by 14 - 17 (not sure about a monkeystomp), but probably wouldn't put it away until the second half of the 4th Q vs. the best in the NEFC this year.  I think that Union would beat U of R by ten and probably beat WPI if they played again this year.  They have clearly improved.  Just like I would've loved to have gotten a hold of RPI again at the end of the season last year.  

My wish list is a Hobart first round NCAA win, RPI getting in and looking good (winning if they have a winnable game - not sure they could beat MUC or North Central), Union and/or WPI winning in ECAC games vs (ideally) AU and Rowan.    

Well said pumpkin and don't forget that Wick also lost to WNEC earlier that same year which is just pathetic! Who is to blame at Union I don't know. I tend to think everyone there has a little part including the fans. First of all it seems obvious that the academic administration has not been as supportive as they could be. Yet I believe there are many many fine athletes, D3 football studs that are excellent students, U just need to find them and get them to U. The one type of player that I think admissions tends to be scared of is the great athlete with questionable grades. From my experiences with U I have seen more often then not the admin back off from a kid with great academic potential but not necessarily performance, because of the possibility that kid won't cut it academically and how that will make the college look. Union is petrified of losing its prestigious academic reputation, petrified! Second you do have the other sports especially hockey. Now hockey to even have a shot of being successful without full scholarships needs a ton of support. Yet I feel it is the colleges job to balance that as much as possible. I mean to me, it seems as if they have this football program with such a great storied history and they are letting it continue to slip from prominence. What has the AD done lately for the program? He is a former player wouldn't you think he would battle to get it where it once was? I also think Audino needs to recruit more effectively.  He has a great pipeline to Florida, which has been a start, but he has been getting out recruited by King for awhile now. I would be curious to hear thoughts on this. I also feel it is important to say that even though I am poking at the program I clearly support the student athletes who are there now. I feel they are great representatives of the college and work their asses off to improve and be successful. I support them 100%, they are my team. No question though that this program as a whole needs to make something happen across the board to get back to where it was and where it should be!

Honest question from an RPI fan to the Union community....

Is it a reasonable statement to say that RPI has taken the mantle from Union as the premier D3 football program in the capital district of NY in terms of 1) on field performance over the last 15 years and 2)commitment shown by the administration to the football program (admissions, financial aid, facilities..ie, the new stadium)??

RT is just as surprised as anyone to see what he considers to be a decline in the Union program from what it was in the 80' and early 90's. The Union that RT played against and was recruited by was the national power Union that was the standard by which RPI set its season. There is such hype and emotion in Troy every year over the Union game...and don't get RT wrong, it will always be a special game but it seems that in the last 4 or 5 years, Hobart has become the team RPI really needs to circle on the schedule as "The Game" in terms of post season implications. RT thinks the LL needs a strong Union and, personally, enjoys the concept of the "3 headed monster" in the LL - RPI, Hobart, and Union. Unfortunately, Union just seems to be inconsistent. Yes, the U has had some good teams recently but in RT's opinion, they used to be in the same category in the East as an Ithaca...basically, the team that reloads every year and if they aren't in the hunt for the NCAAs, it's a disappointment.

What do the Union fans think the issue is??

Nice SRT and I agree with you. Everyone knows how I am not a fan of the engineers but I have to agree with you here. RPI has taken the gauntlet and run with it. Over the last four years as a U fan I have gone into the game believing that we were the underdog team and in a way program. Also some very good points about the reloading versus rebuilding. Union seems to have always reloaded and was just a power house period. Even when we have had some great QB's and players (which we clearly have had in the past five years) where have the Dan Stewart caliber players gone? I don't know the answer like I stated earlier. I know Union considers itself a "NESCAC" school at heart and will not allow its reputation to be anything less. I also agree that academics are the most important but we have showed we can do both, until recently. RPI deserves all the credit in the world for taking the lead in the capital district as the premier D3 team. What pisses me off about RPI is that to me, they are so close to blowing up and becoming even more. Yet they continue to seem content with a weak OOC and not challenging themselves to take the next step. I relaly think they have the potential to do so. Anyway SRT I think you are right on here.

[Senor RedTackle]

I wonder if we might be over-rating the NEFC based on one win ever in the playoffs against a team that gave up 70 pts. to Utica in their prior game.  I also think Curry didn't deserve their top 25 ranking last year and would've lost in to any other opponent in the first round.  

Hobart beat NEFC reps in two of its three first NCAA first round games (the other vs. JCU in 2002) and got zero respect for beating them by a combined 60 - 16 (25 - 0 and 35 - 16).  Given that Hartwick last year was probably the weakest non-NEFC playoff rep in a long time, I would hope that everyone would extend the same skepticism to the NEFC win last year as they did to Bart after their first three playoff appearances (before they beat Cortland in a dogfight in 2005).  

That being said, I know everyone is high on Connelly, but he hasn't exactly lit it up even in their wins.  He was under 50% completions in their last game.  Given this, I think Union would win by 14 - 17 (not sure about a monkeystomp), but probably wouldn't put it away until the second half of the 4th Q vs. the best in the NEFC this year.  I think that Union would beat U of R by ten and probably beat WPI if they played again this year.  They have clearly improved.  Just like I would've loved to have gotten a hold of RPI again at the end of the season last year.  

My wish list is a Hobart first round NCAA win, RPI getting in and looking good (winning if they have a winnable game - not sure they could beat MUC or North Central), Union and/or WPI winning in ECAC games vs (ideally) AU and Rowan.    

Well said pumpkin and don't forget that Wick also lost to WNEC earlier that same year which is just pathetic! Who is to blame at Union I don't know. I tend to think everyone there has a little part including the fans. First of all it seems obvious that the academic administration has not been as supportive as they could be. Yet I believe there are many many fine athletes, D3 football studs that are excellent students, U just need to find them and get them to U. The one type of player that I think admissions tends to be scared of is the great athlete with questionable grades. From my experiences with U I have seen more often then not the admin back off from a kid with great academic potential but not necessarily performance, because of the possibility that kid won't cut it academically and how that will make the college look. Union is petrified of losing its prestigious academic reputation, petrified! Second you do have the other sports especially hockey. Now hockey to even have a shot of being successful without full scholarships needs a ton of support. Yet I feel it is the colleges job to balance that as much as possible. I mean to me, it seems as if they have this football program with such a great storied history and they are letting it continue to slip from prominence. What has the AD done lately for the program? He is a former player wouldn't you think he would battle to get it where it once was? I also think Audino needs to recruit more effectively.  He has a great pipeline to Florida, which has been a start, but he has been getting out recruited by King for awhile now. I would be curious to hear thoughts on this. I also feel it is important to say that even though I am poking at the program I clearly support the student athletes who are there now. I feel they are great representatives of the college and work their asses off to improve and be successful. I support them 100%, they are my team. No question though that this program as a whole needs to make something happen across the board to get back to where it was and where it should be!

Honest question from an RPI fan to the Union community....

Is it a reasonable statement to say that RPI has taken the mantle from Union as the premier D3 football program in the capital district of NY in terms of 1) on field performance over the last 15 years and 2)commitment shown by the administration to the football program (admissions, financial aid, facilities..ie, the new stadium)??

RT is just as surprised as anyone to see what he considers to be a decline in the Union program from what it was in the 80' and early 90's. The Union that RT played against and was recruited by was the national power Union that was the standard by which RPI set its season. There is such hype and emotion in Troy every year over the Union game...and don't get RT wrong, it will always be a special game but it seems that in the last 4 or 5 years, Hobart has become the team RPI really needs to circle on the schedule as "The Game" in terms of post season implications. RT thinks the LL needs a strong Union and, personally, enjoys the concept of the "3 headed monster" in the LL - RPI, Hobart, and Union. Unfortunately, Union just seems to be inconsistent. Yes, the U has had some good teams recently but in RT's opinion, they used to be in the same category in the East as an Ithaca...basically, the team that reloads every year and if they aren't in the hunt for the NCAAs, it's a disappointment.

What do the Union fans think the issue is??

'


Not disagreeing with you RT. The decade, while not over, has thus far been won by RPI.

Very sad state of affairs at the U. Somebody needs to step up and show some support for this once great program.

So how does one "show support"?...that's a subjective statement. RT likens how to turn the U around with the question of how to turn the economy around.  It needs to be done but seems like a daunting and hazy task

[dlippiel]

Since the inception of the LL in 2004, Union is 5-5 vs. Hobart and RPI.....I would rather they be 10-0 obviously, but 5-5 certainly lends credence to the 3 headed LL monster with Union very much involved.

The sky is not falling....Reno, especially needs to step back and take a breath.....

I also agree that the sky is not falling in either. We are looking very good for next year and the year after. Yet I don't think anyone can say Union is the program it was in the 80's and 90's. U89 I think you know this to be true (I think). Under Bagnoli you guys were the "shiznit" and without a doubt a power respected by all and stomping Bob Fords ass at Albany State! Many of us U lovers would just love to see the program regain that type of stature on a consistent basis. Maybe that is an unrealistic thought or want? I don't know